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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2017 15:03:06 GMT
Miserably...endless misery, unhappiness and needs/expectations unmet, day after day.
If you are a normal person, you NEED love, attention and caring from your partner. Period. Otherwise, you just live like a ghost.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 31, 2017 15:28:55 GMT
Miserably...endless misery, unhappiness and needs/expectations unmet, day after day. If you are a normal person, you NEED love, attention and caring from your partner. Period. Otherwise, you just live like a ghost. Let's be really careful about generalizations.....and also realize that under the independence armor is someone who needs love. Insecurely attached individuals are working from old tapes from their childhood...no different from APs...just on the opposite side of the same spectrum. I don't know the individual circumstances so I would not want to say what the driving force is for the marriage. |
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Post by Jaeger on Dec 31, 2017 15:48:29 GMT
It could be multiple things. Children can be a reason to stay for far longer than one would in a situation without children. In my case, I stayed because my own happiness was no longer the most important; knowing how damaging a breakup like this is to young children and seeing the way that change after spending a week at a time with their avoidant mother only strengthens my belief that this was the right choice.
Though she might be able to act more secure with them, the fact that she cannot differentiate between her own emotions or give them sustained and stable emotional empathy has not changed and is unlikely to for a long time yet. Her attachment style towards them may be different but her skills in dealing with emotions and closeness are the same.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2017 17:40:09 GMT
Who knows. I think people stay married for many different reasons other than love. I have a friend who is married (neither DA), and she is miserable. She says she doesn't know why she stays married, but my guess is for the security.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2018 18:03:09 GMT
Let's be really careful about generalizations.....and also realize that under the independence armor is someone who needs love. Insecurely attached individuals are working from old tapes from their childhood...no different from APs...just on the opposite side of the same spectrum. I don't know the individual circumstances so I would not want to say what the driving force is for the marriage. To me, it is simply stating a factual reality that normal human beings need love, caring and attention. Attachment theory says basically the same thing - we evolve to desire partnership. To somehow deny this natural state, whether for oneself or to one's partner, is a recipe for unhappiness and unfulfilment, whether one is aware or unaware. Attachment theory posits that DAs also need the same, but it is a repressed state, and therefore living a unsatisfactory paradox. Perhaps there are those who do not need love, care or attention at all, but that wouldn't be considered "normal". I didn't give an opinion on the driving force for the marriage, but answering the thread in question about the likely state of being unhappy in such a marriage, based on my own experience being previously married to a DA and having just broken up with another DA, and also from the observations from others who have expressed distress in their relationships with their DA partners. I, as well as many others, stayed because of various reasons, but we were unhappy, miserable and unfulfilled, or we wouldn't be here seeking closure, advice, etc. to deal with our unhappy state. This can't be sugar-coated. My own personal reasons for staying was because I thought if I worked hard enough, I could make the marriage work, that he could "see" that the distancing/neglect isn't healthy, the constant seeking for supply outside the marriage lead to an unhappy life for all of us, that he would want to change if he can grasp it somehow. Of course it didn't, he couldn't, etc. The only option is whether to stay miserably married or to leave. I chose the later after 10 over years. I can therefore attest to the fact that being a neglected partner for most normal people leads to a life of misery. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 1, 2018 20:49:11 GMT
Let's be really careful about generalizations.....and also realize that under the independence armor is someone who needs love. Insecurely attached individuals are working from old tapes from their childhood...no different from APs...just on the opposite side of the same spectrum. I don't know the individual circumstances so I would not want to say what the driving force is for the marriage. To me, it is simply stating a factual reality that normal human beings need love, caring and attention. Attachment theory says basically the same thing - we evolve to desire partnership. To somehow deny this natural state, whether for oneself or to one's partner, is a recipe for unhappiness and unfulfilment, whether one is aware or unaware. Attachment theory posits that DAs also need the same, but it is a repressed state, and therefore living a unsatisfactory paradox. Perhaps there are those who do not need love, care or attention at all, but that wouldn't be considered "normal". I didn't give an opinion on the driving force for the marriage, but answering the thread in question about the likely state of being unhappy in such a marriage, based on my own experience being previously married to a DA and having just broken up with another DA, and also from the observations from others who have expressed distress in their relationships with their DA partners. I, as well as many others, stayed because of various reasons, but we were unhappy, miserable and unfulfilled, or we wouldn't be here seeking closure, advice, etc. to deal with our unhappy state. This can't be sugar-coated. My own personal reasons for staying was because I thought if I worked hard enough, I could make the marriage work, that he could "see" that the distancing/neglect isn't healthy, the constant seeking for supply outside the marriage lead to an unhappy life for all of us, that he would want to change if he can grasp it somehow. Of course it didn't, he couldn't, etc. The only option is whether to stay miserably married or to leave. I chose the later after 10 over years. I can therefore attest to the fact that being a neglected partner for most normal people leads to a life of misery. I truly don't think you reread your original thread and my response. You noted that it would be dussatifactory....but let's be honest....we don't know the individuals involved. I want to be careful about making all individuals with DA the same. I am sorry your experiences with your ex DA partners were miserable and I am glad that you were able to see patterns within yourself that explain why you stayed. Since we don't have many people who have a working/happy relationship with a DA posting here...I am not sure how often that happens...but I would bet some people do find a mddle ground that works for them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2018 21:24:03 GMT
I truly don't think you reread your original thread and my response. You noted that it would be dussatifactory....but let's be honest....we don't know the individuals involved. I want to be careful about making all individuals with DA the same. I am sorry your experiences with your ex DA partners were miserable and I am glad that you were able to see patterns within yourself that explain why you stayed. Since we don't have many people who have a working/happy relationship with a DA posting here...I am not sure how often that happens...but I would bet some people do find a mddle ground that works for them. I didn't start the thread. OP is also a third party, so anyone replying here will naturally *not* truly know the situation and therefore speculating based on our personal experiences, including yourself. The entire premise of the thread is speculative. We all don't know what it is like for other DA partnerships whose partners do not post here, unless someone is sharing, as OP did. We are all posting within this particular context, so I don't understand your criticism that I posted my personal opinion? My personal experience with those who are involved with Avoidant partners, including my own, and the DA I recently separated from (who had two divorces btw), and from literature like the books on Attachment such as Jeb's, points to a large % of unhappiness and failure, which is why there is so much research into this, and why this forum exists to help us navigate through the nadir of our experiences, DAs and non DAs. The DAs who post here are all awares, and sharing their personal experiences, but they made the choice to engage after becoming aware. If you have a different opinion and know of many successful partnerships, please do share your speculation and insight how it might be a satisfactory marriage, as many of us here would like to make our relationships with the DAs work. We are all pushing on a string, trying to "make" our DA partners aware and willing to meet us half the way. Some might, many won't. The frustrations, the hurt, the sadness, the bewilderment, the sense of loss in thread after thread are all real. Each of us have to deal with the disappointment and come to the realization of our situation based on whatever insight we can glean here, even as we share our own. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 1, 2018 21:48:56 GMT
I truly don't think you reread your original thread and my response. You noted that it would be dussatifactory....but let's be honest....we don't know the individuals involved. I want to be careful about making all individuals with DA the same. I am sorry your experiences with your ex DA partners were miserable and I am glad that you were able to see patterns within yourself that explain why you stayed. Since we don't have many people who have a working/happy relationship with a DA posting here...I am not sure how often that happens...but I would bet some people do find a mddle ground that works for them. I didn't start the thread. OP is also a third party, so anyone replying here will naturally *not* truly know the situation and therefore speculating based on our personal experiences, including yourself. The entire premise of the thread is speculative. We all don't know what it is like for other DA partnerships whose partners do not post here, unless someone is sharing, as OP did. We are all posting within this particular context, so I don't understand your criticism that I posted my personal opinion? My personal experience with those who are involved with Avoidant partners, including my own, and the DA I recently separated from (who had two divorces btw), and from literature like the books on Attachment such as Jeb's, points to a large % of unhappiness and failure, which is why there is so much research into this, and why this forum exists to help us navigate through the nadir of our experiences, DAs and non DAs. If you have a different opinion and know of many successful partnerships, please do share your insight, as many of us here would like to make our relationships with the DAs work. I guess what bothers me is that I see so much negativity towards individuals in the DA and FA forum. I am not sure how successful AP relationships are...but I don't see nearly this amount of negativity on that board of these forums. I think of individuals like Mary who come here and read just post after post stating that the attachment style they most relate to is doomed from a relationship perspective and I can't help but wonder why we aren't trying to understand the DA perspective through actually hearing from DAs instead of hearing from the ex partners (which I am one as well...multiple times over). I certainly would love to hear more about what drives what we perceive as distancing strategies and inconsistent affection/connection and whether they have any thoughts on the original question.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2018 22:05:35 GMT
I sincerely believe that it can work but ONLY when the DA is aware and willing, such as the helpful DAs here. However, unfortunately, the very nature of DA is to avoid going anywhere even near such questions, so that is indeed a huge leap. There is something special about the DAs who take the courageous step of no longer avoiding their issues but facing them head-on. It is taking a step away from the Avoidant spectrum towards Secure. What I've noticed is that the avoidant coping strategy in a long-term marriage or partnership is to avoid closeness with various tactics and techniques. The partners (even DA partners who desire distance) keenly feel it, the root problem of little connection remains, the message of "come here, go away" confuses the mind, and the leading of separate lives goes on. As their partners, we can't "make" them change, they need to arrive at the decision themselves. It is up to us unhappy partners to decide for ourselves if we should stay or leave, but for the majority of us here, I'd say we are rather unhappy about the state we're in, though many of us want our cake and eat it too, i.e. stay in the relationship but "make" our partners aware and willing to change. This is where most of us hang out in impossible, limbo land...  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2018 22:06:33 GMT
I know of a DA who got married and definitely does not seem happy in the relationship and does a lot of distancing and distracting with Work and friendships with other women. They do have a 5 year old child together which I believe is what keeps them together. How does this man stay married and how can his wife deal with this fake marriage? As a DA now I hope heading towards a secure attachment style, I was married for 16 years to a man who was probably in his own way emotionally unavailable - whilst not what we see here as the classic distant DA he was a workaholic, happy as long as his need for physical intimacy was fulfilled and he had me there as his attractive stepford wife taking care of kids/ house etc. I was chronically unhappy - not as a result of his behaviour but because suppressing emotions and living a life that is not true to oneself if exhausting and soul less - I could not at that time be any other way and I felt a fraud - however my ex husband was happy since he had an easy life - he may have preferred more intimacy but in all honesty he never showed this - was happy out socialising with his friends. He was a faithful, kind husband and a good father - perhaps some people and perhaps some men in particular really don't have a need to the kind of intense emotional connection that many of us seem to think is the norm in modern intimate relationships? |
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 1, 2018 22:41:55 GMT
Thank you tnr and let’s be honest here if you are a DA you definitely have all those attachment issues. They don’t change over night and most of them do not seek treatment and just continue from one relationship to the next hurting people along the way. If a DA is not in therapy there is no way they can have a healthy relationship! Period dot end! I think itnis very selfish in their part to even get involved with people no less get married and thehave children. It’s a sham and totally dishonest on their part to pull in people who are capable of true healthy relationships. Everything I have read about DAs and then experiencing them with the individual is EXACTLY WHAT IS WROTTEN ABOUT THEM. They are selfish people. Sorry but that’s my personal opinion. I get where you are coming from Missyb...I do.....however...if the criteria for a relationship falls on a person being altruistic and secure....then you also have to take the other insecure attachments out of the dating pool as well....and I say that as an AP. I think we all know that insecure attached individuals will continue to exist in the dating pool...so I truly believe the answer comes down to knowing yourself, knowing what you need and continuing to pay attention to the red flags along the way. BTW...if DAs were not allowed to have kids...then several of us would not exist...myself included. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 1, 2018 23:09:35 GMT
From what I have read about DA’s is that they are empty inside and don’t know what true love is and they mimic what others do to start relationships. They know they are doing this — that is dishonest and it’s hurtful. Secures and anxious people know love and know what trying to make a relationshinis all about. We have the regular issues but DAs are not genuine they are not authentic! That’s deceitful and they know full well they have no desire to really LOVE a person but merely get involved to only get their selfish needs met. Sorry, but thatnis what I have experienced. It’s not healthy and raising children in such an environment is toxic!! I am not a DA, but what you are describing sounds more like a Narcissist. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2018 23:32:12 GMT
This is a lot of speculation, maybe just ask him, and ask his partner, they might be able to shed some light on it for you? It’s a lot of energy expended trying to figure out someone else’s relationship. Half of marriages end in divorce, or something like that. So DA’s obviously aren’t the only ones in miserable marriages. There are lots of miserable marriages not ending in divorce, also. They grind on and on. The statistics don’t support them all being DA’s. It would seem that the most successful relationship partners are not posting on internet forums to figure them out, so maybe we should all be humble hahaha!  We all suffer, here’s to trying to heal. |
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Post by lucky on Jan 2, 2018 19:50:01 GMT
I know of a DA who got married and definitely does not seem happy in the relationship and does a lot of distancing and distracting with Work and friendships with other women. They do have a 5-year-old child together which I believe is what keeps them together. How does this man stay married and how can his wife deal with this fake marriage?
Hello. I'm a recovering DA (slightly FA) who was married to a secure.
How does one get married? At the time, I didn't know I was DA. I knew I had trouble connecting with people, but only after the fact was I able to identify the many ways I distanced myself from my husband and kept him at arm's length throughout the entire relationship. Even when getting married, I knew this feeling couldn't be what people feel when getting married. I wasn't excited about it at all. I also was still heartdamaged from my last breakup. 3 years prior. Yes. DA's have feelings. THAT is why we keep our distance - to prevent them. I got married 'because I was supposed to." Thats one way it happens.
How do they deal? He would try to get me to meet him halfway. The simplest example was him wanting me to compromise on patterns of communication that are 'normal', and I just couldn't do it. Even something as easy as "wife, can you please make an effort to call me daily just so I can say Hi - and connect with you like a normal person?" (while we were separated for weeks, on work trips, in different continents). I couldn't keep up the frequency without getting resentful.
Was it a "FAKE" marriage. No. Both he and I wouldn't call it that. it was two people trying to love each other, and one just not knowing how to make sure the other felt loved. Not to mention, me just not loving him the way "someone is supposed to love their spouse" - whatever that means - I just knew it wasn't there.
He tried though. He was so patient dealing with me. And, he taught me by example what I should be striving for if I find myself in a relationship where I love someone and am committed to them.
How does one deal with a marriage to a DA? it is a miserable existence. Even as a DA, I still have SOME feelings. I knew I was destroying this man and would hope that I could get myself together. Of course, I couldn't. I didn't. I broke him down, ruined his self-esteem. I treated him poorly as a man. Poorly as a friend. And poorly as a husband. In the moment, I didn't see how my behavior could be so damaging to him, but I could see it after the fact. He would explain it to me. I logically made the connection. But, emotionally, not as much because I didn't empathize the feelings he was feeling.
Upon divorcing - I did some self-reflection to figure out why did I do this to my best friend. Why did I keep things from him - knowing I only wanted to be close?[By the way, the answer is because it is extremely uncomfortable.] How could I prevent this pattern from becoming my daughter's life? Unfortunately, this self-awarenesss & reflection wasn't happening during the marriage. I thought I was just a b*tch. He tried to get me to a therapist, but I thought I was a jerk to him because he was a jerk to me. I blamed a lot of my distancing behavior on him. Plus, I'd checked out long before the divorce and didn't want to make the effort.
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lucky
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Post by lucky on Jan 2, 2018 19:59:04 GMT
From what I have read about DA’s is that they are empty inside and don’t know what true love is and they mimic what others do to start relationships. They know they are doing this — that is dishonest and it’s hurtful. Secures and anxious people know love and know what trying to make a relationshinis all about. We have the regular issues but DAs are not genuine they are not authentic! That’s deceitful and they know full well they have no desire to really LOVE a person but merely get involved to only get their selfish needs met. Sorry, but thatnis what I have experienced. It’s not healthy and raising children in such an environment is toxic!! I think you might be talking about extreme DA. There are levels to this madness. We are genuine & authentic (but often, we live in the moment). We are not conniving to get you to fall in love with us just to crush you later. It just so happens that we emotionally crush people. But that is not our intent. Also, the self-aware (and even some of us who don't know why [we just know that we're 'not quite right in that way']) DAs tell others point blank that we are "not interested in a relationship", "don't know how to love you", "aren't what you need", "are bad for you", "might break your heart", "I run away from relationships", etc. etc. etc. Those of us with some feelings know we hurt people and give fair warning. |
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