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Post by Jason on Sept 1, 2016 18:32:40 GMT
Where do I begin....
I am the oldest of three boys, my parents had me at a very young age (mom was 19) and I am 3.5 years older than my next bro, they are only 1.5 years a part in age.
I grew up in a small town in Newfoundland, very little affection in the household and I would very much consider myself the black sheep. My middle bro played hockey so my dad bonded with him, my youngest bro had health issues so my mom was preoccupied with him. I was left to my own devices much of the time and am I very independent, always have been. My father and I fought constantly until I moved away for university. 13 years in St. John's you can count on one hand how many times I went home. There was a year I did not talk to my parents, just couldn't be bothered.
I have had many close friends but I am very out of sight, out of mind. If I do not have constant interaction with someone, the connection quickly decays and I rarely bother to engage. I'm a bit of a loner but I am also a social butterfly, no issues interacting with others and while I am not the life of the party, I am told I am very funny and good natured. I get along very well with co-workers (not all but most) and positive reviews from management. I work hard, competent, well educated, and well read.
I am very involved in the mental health field and was a counselor for years, including suicide intervention.
I have been in long term relationships but usually not by choice. I got my kid's mom pregnant the first time we slept together after only dating for two weeks. We tried to build a relationship out of that, five years of misery. My relationships start out strong, constant great sex, affection, sharing and laughter. After the relationship starts to progress to a more settled state something in my mind switches. I pull away, become protective of "me" time and space, and I very rarely share. I avoid intimacy and deeper connection.
Surface emotions like anger, depression, stress, humour I feel all the time. Deeper emotions like love, sharing, intimacy, compassion, passion, happiness I cannot seem to reach and even when I do, I cannot sustain them. I either never feel them or I feel them in short bursts. Actually I do not know if I even feel them as I have no idea what the feel like, maybe I'm fooling myself into believing I'm feeling these deeper emotions.
I have slept with a lot of women, well over 100. Many of them repeats but a good percentage where just superficial one time things. When sex is just to satisfy physical needs I'm great with it, very giving and considerate lover. In a relationship, like I said I start out strong but as I pull away, I initiate sex less and less to the point where I almost avoid it and dread it. I don't do this to hurt my partner, I just justify to myself I don't want to, make up excuses like I'm too tired and not feeling well even when I want to have sex.
I was with their kid's mom for five years, it did not end well but we have been separated for over six years and we moved on from that and get along well. My fear is as my kids (girl 9, boy 7) become teenagers and my relationship with them requires more effort on my part, I will loose focus and disconnect.
I'm in therapy and I have been doing a lot of reading and soul searching. I asked my mom what I was like as a kid, independent and always doing my own thing. I never bonded with either of my parents.
I want to be happy, I want love and intimacy, a real solid relationship with a partner I want to share my life with. I want these things but I have no idea how to achieve them. In the past my partners know when I pull away and warn me, but I keep going back to my old ways and the relationship dies.
Like I said I start out strong but I fade away. How do I break the cycle? Dying alone and not knowing my kids is not what I want.
Thanks,
Jason
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Post by Jo on Sept 1, 2016 19:20:01 GMT
Hi Jason. This is a very honest and up front post. All I would like to say is that in many respects, you share traits with my very long-term partner who is a high end dismissive avoidant, with a fear of commitment (despite being with me for years ) and a fear of intimacy. We compromise almost daily, and accept each other for who we are, but it is not always easy. I have written a few posts on this forum. Like you, he is aware of his limitations, patterns etc. However, and it has taken many years, he is also aware of why he is like he is, but most importantly for us, he can now (to a certain extent) rationalise his fears by daily journaling. His fear of intimacy stems from a fear of being controlled. Despite being very tolerant of him, patient etc, I am a very scary person, as I am the closest person to him. I am not sure if this is something you can relate with. His issues come from inadequate care giving. His primary caregiver was always there, as such he was fed and watered etc, but he was disciplined with controlling tactics and was never held, cuddled, kissed, or told he was loved etc. Never.
Like you, he is good in social situations, although he generally dislikes them, and his natural state is to be alone in a remote place. He understands the concepts of love, loyalty etc, but he does not feel them, well not in the way that I do. This is despite him being loyal to me and telling me that he loves me. He knows that people get hurt post relationships etc, but on a general level he can't empathise, although he does not want to lose me.
If if you would like a relationship, then I guess one way of achieving this might be to find out more about yourself, and to find ways of rationalising your behaviours. In turn your partner also needs to rationalise both your traits and their own responses to them. However, this can be hard - I should know. Your partner needs to be happy in their own skin and be willing to enjoy what they do have with you, but also to learn to not miss what they don't have. Perhaps you will be an important and very much valued 'side dish' rather than the 'main meal'. This is not meant nastily, its just my way of rationalising it, and I accept that it might not be how other people feel. It's just that if my partner thought that he was my 'main dish' - ie. 'My world' - he would feel threatened by that.
Im rambling now, but I think you are in a fairly good place at the moment re: starting to understand yourself.
Take care, Jo.
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Post by Jason on Sept 2, 2016 12:27:12 GMT
Thank you for the reply Jo, gives me a much deeper understanding coming from the partner of someone like me.
Where I grew up, everyone is "white" and "straight" and men are away a lot fishing or working in the woods. Women raise the children and men for the most part are hands off. Boys we raised to be hardass men, expressing emotions was seen as weakness. When I moved to the city to attend university I started dating women from China, my best friend (still my best friend) is gay, we also lived together when he came out. I was pretty much ostracized by my family, mostly the extended and my father but I was never close to them to begin with.
Thing is I'm aware I have this inside me. I read the forums, other authors like Goleman and Bolby and Kinnison of course. I watch the YouTube videos, I'm in therapy....I still fall back in my old ways. I'm tired of being me, it is exhausting forcing yourself to feel.
I pick my partners a part, I constantly search for flaws and I even make them up. I convince myself I don't need them, I'm better off alone. This really ramps up if we spend a lot of time together and I don't have sufficient time to myself.
I can even feel myself pulling away from my kids and I get short tempered with them even though I only see them once per week. I want to be a great dad, I love my kids but my compromising, sharing time tank depletes quickly.
I very rarely drink, maybe twice a year, no drugs, I don't smoke or gamble so addiction isn't an issue. While I have trained in martial arts from an early age and I have been in fights when I was younger, I hate violence and I have never, would never be physically abusive, it is just not in me. Harming a child or my partner is not in my realty, I was even abused in a relationship years ago and never fought back, I simply cannot hit a woman.
So not an addict, check. Not physically abusive, check. Emotionally I am neglectful and I fear being vulnerable, I don't even think I feel like a normal person.
Jo did your partner volunteer to you he has this condition? Do you talk about it with him? I know throwing out I am a dismissive-avoidant early in a relationship would freak anyone out but is it safe to share aspects of this condition to my partner. "I don't feel like other people" feels empty and a cope out, where do I start explaining this?
Thanks again for your insight, I really appreciate it.
Jason
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Post by Jo on Sept 2, 2016 12:53:07 GMT
Hi Jason,
I have picked up your post, but am just about to go to work. I just wanted you to know that I will reply to your questions as best as I can once I am able to. Will write soon,
Jo
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raco
Junior Member
Posts: 81 
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Post by raco on Sept 2, 2016 13:29:07 GMT
Hi Jason, Those contradicting needs that you have make me think of Pete Gerlach's theory. I found it somewhat helpful and maybe it could help you. Gerlach's views about being emotionally unavailable: sfhelp.org/gwc/wounds/bonding.htm His website and method: sfhelp.org/site/intro.htm, and his Youtube channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCegNhGTqlWjgOqaCsj_7pxwAbout addictions, be aware that anything can be an addiction, not only drugs and gambling: working, reading, watching TV or listening to music, doing sport, having sex or watching porn, eating, etc. |
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Post by Mary on Sept 2, 2016 13:48:54 GMT
Jason, I know exactly where you are coming from. For a long time, I had no idea why I didn't have relationships like other people. At least now you are aware of the things you are doing. I broke up with every single person I dated and finally figured out that I was the common denominator. Even though I am aware of my issue, I still can't entirely stop how my mind works. I still find flaws with my partner and either exaggerate them or my mind makes them up.
I am currently in a relationship, because I have found a man that understands it as best he can and doesn't see it as a big problem. Somehow he has been able to see through the things I say and gives me space to work things out in my head and he has been the only person that I want to run away from but always go back to. I did tell him early in the relationship about my issue and it did help a lot. It helped him to understand where I came from and why I do what I do. I was in therapy for quite a few years and the therapist told me that it would take a very special person to handle a relationship with me and she was right. The relationship works through honesty, understanding and a lot of talking. It's probably not the relationship that other people experience, but it's pretty great. It has progressed very slowly, but it's the only pace that works for me and he is very patient. I think that for avoidants, like us, it's a combination of finding that person that will understand and constantly working toward figuring out what is real in our head versus what is real on the outside.
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Post by Jo on Sept 2, 2016 16:11:43 GMT
Hi Jason, I am happy to answer your questions and will now take the in turn:
1. Did he volunteer his attachment type: the answer is 'not directly'. At that point he didnt know that there were labels. When we first started out, he would intoduce sort of 'statements' around commitment, how he views relationships, a need for space etc. What he was doing, I think, was in his own way 'fore-warning me' after a lifetime of relationship disasters (his words). At that time he didnt really know how his traits were related to his childhood life experiences, but like Mary, he had realised that he was the common denominator and in fact used those exact words .
2. Do we talk about it? Yes - a lot. But it is done in short doses, and often disguised within another activity such as cooking together. About a year into our relationship, I stumbled on the book by Rachel Heller and Amir Levine ('Attached') and this explained a lot, but not everything (like anyone else, dismissive avoidants cant be 'slotted' - one size does not fit all). He is very self aware, and takes opportunities to understand himself further, so when I gently showed him the book, he was prepared to read it together. We had our own copies, and I would sometimes highlight a paragraph that was pertinent to us, and ask him if this or that was like that for him. It has taken years for us to get where we are now, which is a mutual understanding, with love and acceptance, and plenty of compromise and tolerance on both sides. We both know that we want to be together, and we enjoy doing many things. However, challenges do still sometimes emerge, but we deal with this much quicker and more effectively having talked a lot.
3. Is it safe to introduce this to a partner? Yes, I think it is vital, especially if you sense that this is someone to be valued and is generally coming from a good place. However, you might need to be prepared for plenty of questions, as she will naturally want to know why you are like this. Being told by someone that they dont 'feel' things is quite hard, and can be interpreted as a rejection, especially if she doesnt understand that it is not aimed at her personally, so this was why I said in my previous post that it is important that both of you can try to rationalise things. If you can, tell her what you value about her, what is unique and special about her (perhaps she is calm or non controlling, or a good listener etc). This will go a long way.
I hope this helps in some way, Jo
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147 
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Post by katy on Sept 2, 2016 17:44:26 GMT
I'm certainly not an expert, but I can provide my insights as to what it felt like to be on the receiving end of an avoidant's personality shift and how his personality traits might have been presented in a way that would have preserved the relationship.
In the world, I normally feel fairly secure. My mother had some undiagnosed mental disorder (BPD, narcissist, bully, mentally ill?) and was especially bullying and scapegoating towards me, the oldest child. I had therapy, have done lots of reading, and have been lucky enough to be married to a kind, loving (fairly hermit-like) man for over 20 years.
I didn't formally know about avoidants and narcissists, I just knew that I had met lots of people with lots of different personalities. I did consulting for many years and travelled to many different companies. I've met plenty of (now I know) avoidants who made it very clear, early-on, that they were dismissive, difficult people. Over time, especially with my husband's help and advice, I usually learned to ignore their difficult personalities and did my job.
Then I met somebody who is an avoidant who hid his avoidant side with charm and praise and a seeming delight at knowing me. Over the months, he appeared to be a really kind, supportive friend. I had no idea that this kind of at-first-charming avoidant existed. When the inevitable push/pull avoiding, making up flaws about me, blaming me, and angry rejection finally displayed, it was heart-breaking to me. I'm sure that part of the heart-break was my difficult childhood that I thought I had conquered, but, as you read other stories about the people rejected by charming avoidants, even "normal" people are in shock when it happens to them.
As I look back, if I had been told about how he needs to deal with people, we could have worked around it. I would have been much more aware of his feeling smothered and would have managed my level of contact with him much differently. I would have been sensitive about his feeling controlled and would have seen him in such a different light. I'm very capable of dealing with my husband's hermit-like feelings stemming from PTSD from being in the Marine Corps in Vietnam, so if I had had a clue, I could have managed the relationship with the avoidant in a similar way.
Based on my limited experience, I would say that if you can find a person whom you feel is fairly understanding and self-confident, it is certainly worth beginning the discussion about what's going on with you. If they freak and become threatened, you'll know this isn't a good person for you to be with long-term. If they can understand, then, as time goes on, as kindly as you can, you'll still need to neutrally tell them that your "symptoms" are overwhelming you and that you need to retreat for a while. But, if they are self-confident and understanding, I would think that it could work out. I find with my husband that as we have gotten to know each over the years, I can almost read when he needs to be left alone. I also have become accustomed, as Jo said, of living quite a bit of my life without dragging my husband into what I'm doing. I know that if I force him to do something nice, but not critical, that he doesn't want to do, it will not go well. But, that said, in an emergency, he's always right there, expertly helping.
Also, based on dealing with a mother with problems, I think that as your children get older, it would be much better to explain to them that sometimes you get overwhelmed and it's not them, it's your issues. Then, when you're back in your communicative state, if something difficult has happened with the children, it's good to apologize. That way, they can see that they are not the ones at fault. I think the damage from cruel, blaming parents is that they always position the children at fault. If I had known early-on that my mother had mental problems and that it wasn't my fault, lots of the self-blame that I've had to fight with during my life would not have been implanted in my soul.
I think if you can begin to explain to trusted people what's going and try to communicate when you need to withdraw, it can work out.
Best wishes,
Katy
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Post by Jason on Sept 3, 2016 21:47:21 GMT
Thank you all, Jo, Katy, raco, and Mary for sharing your experiences and insights with me.
I'll explore every suggestion you gave and carry on with my therapy and educate myself on what is going on with me.
I'm trying to not slip into my old ways of casual dating and physical involvement without any emotional investment. Phew...damn it is hard to resist but if I don;t learn to control this and find some compromise with myself I don't think I'll ever get better.
Thanks again and if I come across anything on my journey that is applicable to what we talked about I'll share.
Take care,
Jason
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