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Post by tinyrobotman on Apr 19, 2018 22:48:50 GMT
Thanks everyone for their kind comments and understanding. It's funny when you start viewing your life through the lens of attachment how close relationships and decisions I've made have started to make a lot more sense and I have a lot more compassion for my friend than I did before. I'm now thinking back to previous relationships and why I do always seem to end up doing too much for others (often avoidants) and why I don't seem to attract more healthy partners. I have a feeling people tend to pickup on my AP ways and it's a turn off for many secure-ish types. Despite being outwardly a good dating catch and having an active life I probably give off a needy vibe. I also wonder if one of the reasons that my friend wasn't attracted to me after our initial dating experience was that she also picked up on the fact that as an AP I would have asked more than she could give in a relationship and would be clingy. One of her overriding DA feature is that she doesn't want to depend on anyone or have anyone depend on her so best to keep someone who might ask to much as a "best friend". Hard to know for sure of course, maybe there was something else about me, although on a lot of levels it seemed like we were well matched. Although through the lens of attachment it may be that we would have been a disaster as an actual couple. She never could tell me why she wasn't attracted to me and I'm pretty sure she wasn't saying that just to spare my feelings since sparing feelings isn't her thing. As mechristie said no matter the reason you can't make someone love you.
future: Your "two side of the same coin" anology is great. We both fear being being hurt by those close to us we just have different reactions.
curious: Very well put and thanks for the assurance about the fact that I will always mean something to her. When she lashed out it was so hard to not feel like she was tossing aside so many years. Funny my friend use the term "like my brother" as well. I really think she meant it in the sense that I was as close as anyone could be without being romantic, which is an honor in a way, but also so disappointing.
meimei: Thanks for sharing your story as well. I agree that we have to keep others feelings in mind and just saying "well they should have better boundaries" is sort of a cop out. I have had women friends that wanted a relationship when I wanted friendship so I was very careful to keep a certain distance not just in my words but also not getting to close to them in my actions as well. Because I was mindful of her feelings through my actions her and I are still friends and she is now happily in a relationship with a great guy. I think a big problem happens when a DA is able to keep very emotional strict boundaries and a AP is always searching for what they want to "hear" in the DA's actions. When someone wants to spend almost all their free time with you, sharing their deepest emotions and talks about living together-ish it's hard for a AP to not start reading into that even if you're not having sexy-time together.
juniper: I love your description of her as a my "muse". That's exactly right. She was my link to culture, food, music and design and my emotional support. If her and I manage to reconnect as friends again I'll have to tell her that term, I'm sure she would appreciate it. She's such a unique creature.
I've definitely have a lot of work to do on myself and hopefully get some of issues under control. I'm think when I've done my work and hopefully found a relationship of my own her and I will be able to repair our friendship. I know now I need to have compassion for her and make her feel emotionally safe in order for that to happen. She must be carrying around a lot of hurt to want to push people away like she does. I can already see signs of this with the new guy that she's seeing. Creating all these conditions for how it's going to have to be for it to work out.
Anyway thanks again for everyone's perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 23:14:29 GMT
Thanks everyone for their kind comments and understanding. It's funny when you start viewing your life through the lens of attachment how close relationships and decisions I've made have started to make a lot more sense and I have a lot more compassion for my friend than I did before. I'm now thinking back to previous relationships and why I do always seem to end up doing too much for others (often avoidants) and why I don't seem to attract more healthy partners. I have a feeling people tend to pickup on my AP ways and it's a turn off for many secure-ish types. Despite being outwardly a good dating catch and having an active life I probably give off a needy vibe. I also wonder if one of the reasons that my friend wasn't attracted to me after our initial dating experience was that she also picked up on the fact that as an AP I would have asked more than she could give in a relationship and would be clingy. One of her overriding DA feature is that she doesn't want to depend on anyone or have anyone depend on her so best to keep someone who might ask to much as a "best friend". Hard to know for sure of course, maybe there was something else about me, although on a lot of levels it seemed like we were well matched. Although through the lens of attachment it may be that we would have been a disaster as an actual couple. She never could tell me why she wasn't attracted to me and I'm pretty sure she wasn't saying that just to spare my feelings since sparing feelings isn't her thing. As mechristie said no matter the reason you can't make someone love you. future: Your "two side of the same coin" anology is great. We both fear being being hurt by those close to us we just have different reactions. curious: Very well put and thanks for the assurance about the fact that I will always mean something to her. When she lashed out it was so hard to not feel like she was tossing aside so many years. Funny my friend use the term "like my brother" as well. I really think she meant it in the sense that I was as close as anyone could be without being romantic, which is an honor in a way, but also so disappointing. meimei: Thanks for sharing your story as well. I agree that we have to keep others feelings in mind and just saying "well they should have better boundaries" is sort of a cop out. I have had women friends that wanted a relationship when I wanted friendship so I was very careful to keep a certain distance not just in my words but also not getting to close to them in my actions as well. Because I was mindful of her feelings through my actions her and I are still friends and she is now happily in a relationship with a great guy. I think a big problem happens when a DA is able to keep very emotional strict boundaries and a AP is always searching for what they want to "hear" in the DA's actions. When someone wants to spend almost all their free time with you, sharing their deepest emotions and talks about living together-ish it's hard for a AP to not start reading into that even if you're not having sexy-time together. juniper: I love your description of her as a my "muse". That's exactly right. She was my link to culture, food, music and design and my emotional support. If her and I manage to reconnect as friends again I'll have to tell her that term, I'm sure she would appreciate it. She's such a unique creature. I've definitely have a lot of work to do on myself and hopefully get some of issues under control. I'm think when I've done my work and hopefully found a relationship of my own her and I will be able to repair our friendship. I know now I need to have compassion for her and make her feel emotionally safe in order for that to happen. She must be carrying around a lot of hurt to want to push people away like she does. I can already see signs of this with the new guy that she's seeing. Creating all these conditions for how it's going to have to be for it to work out. Anyway thanks again for everyone's perspective. . this is a beautiful post and i appreciate so much that you stepped back to me when i challenged you. it was to get you to see just this. you responded out of courage and not fear and i have huge respect for that! i wish you the very best, i truly do. you never know what's ahead but it could be good.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 23:15:47 GMT
i can only do it my way and others may do it better.
but we all have our own way.
thanks for letting me do me and thanks for you doing you.
i mean that.
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Post by tinyrobotman on Apr 21, 2018 20:49:21 GMT
So a quick update. Knowing what I know now I emailed my friend a short note explaining a bit about my insights into my attachment style and apologizing for my freak out. She emailed me back in a reassuring way and said that we would reconnect and talk at some point in the future. I know I'm not ready yet, so I guess my question is what can I do to get to the point where I'm not triggered by seeing her? Obviously her and I can't be nearly as close and spend as much time together as before, but it would be nice to maintain some sort of friendship. I have to be able to sit with the feeling that she may be moving and I am no longer her top priority like I was before. Anyway may start a thread in the AP forum since really this is more about me and my AP dysfunction at this point than her being DA (although certainly a factor in what happened).
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 21, 2018 21:00:50 GMT
So a quick update. Knowing what I know now I emailed my friend a short note explaining a bit about my insights into my attachment style and apologizing for my freak out. She emailed me back in a reassuring way and said that we would reconnect and talk at some point in the future. I know I'm not ready yet, so I guess my question is what can I do to get to the point where I'm not triggered by seeing her? Obviously her and I can't be nearly as close and spend as much time together as before, but it would be nice to maintain some sort of friendship. I have to be able to sit with the feeling that she may be moving and I am no longer her top priority like I was before. Anyway may start a thread in the AP forum since really this is more about me and my AP dysfunction at this point than her being DA (although certainly a factor in what happened). Honestly...I think the first step...and it is HARD...is to separate your worth from her choice. Her choosing someone else does not have anything to do with how worthy you are...but as APs who were often invalidated by our caregivers, we tend to personalize everything....and usually with a negative lens. It is a bias that does not allow for alternative reasons for things. It sounds incredibly corny, but remind yourself that you are enough. |
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Post by tinyrobotman on Apr 21, 2018 23:41:49 GMT
Honestly...I think the first step...and it is HARD...is to separate your worth from her choice. Her choosing someone else does not have anything to do with how worthy you are...but as APs who were often invalidated by our caregivers, we tend to personalize everything....and usually with a negative lens. It is a bias that does not allow for alternative reasons for things. It sounds incredibly corny, but remind yourself that you are enough. Yep, I think you nailed it. Something I need to work on so much not just in regards to her but also for dating and relationships in general. If I can do that with her then it will be a big step in general. I always internalize the rejection. As for where my AP tendencies come from, I'd have to guess having a daytime nanny while my mom worked when I was a baby and toddler as well as a family history of anxiety. My parents were always encouraging and supportive, but maybe something with switching caregivers everyday and then no longer having the nanny after we moved, who knows. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 0:39:30 GMT
So a quick update. Knowing what I know now I emailed my friend a short note explaining a bit about my insights into my attachment style and apologizing for my freak out. She emailed me back in a reassuring way and said that we would reconnect and talk at some point in the future. I know I'm not ready yet, so I guess my question is what can I do to get to the point where I'm not triggered by seeing her? Obviously her and I can't be nearly as close and spend as much time together as before, but it would be nice to maintain some sort of friendship. I have to be able to sit with the feeling that she may be moving and I am no longer her top priority like I was before. Anyway may start a thread in the AP forum since really this is more about me and my AP dysfunction at this point than her being DA (although certainly a factor in what happened). You nailed it, you are NOT that toddler with changing caregivers, you are the wonderful, loving adult, show that inner toddler what you have now, how you have come a long way, beyond what he imagined. It is time that you put yourself as your own priority, to become Secure, sure and strong, be a rock unto yourself. Use the time to reprogram yourself to become the best person you can be, for the best woman who enters your life in future, no matter at which juncture. You might need to start meeting a lot of women, not to date but to be their friend, to know the types out there, how they think, what is a Secure like? What is an AP? What is an Avoidant? One good way to start feeling positive about yourself is to write a list of compliments you have ever received in your life, from as far back as you can remember, eg. someone who told you "You are kind", another who said you are generous, you are resourceful, etc., plus what you know to be true about yourself and read them over and over until you know your own worth. When you are in charge of your life you won't feel anxious, but calm, steady and a wonderful anchor for yourself and others. Know that it is possible, and make your way there. Expand your world and embrace the best that is to come. |
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Post by tinyrobotman on May 1, 2018 3:13:08 GMT
Further update: She texted me the other day and said that her and the guy she had been seeing broke up (much sooner than I thought it was going to happen but reason was classic anxious/avoidant issue). I sent something sympathetic back but also added at the end I was still working on myself. She then texted me something about sorry for crossing a boundary with me. I told her she didn't cross any boundaries (she didn't) and then she disappeared. So ... of course this development was a bit of an AP trigger but I'm doing better than before, although it's hard not to want to chase after her and try and "fix" her with my new found attachment knowledge. I know I need to not for my own emotional health. Also I'd guess her and the guy will get back together a few times before she finally runs for good so I need to stay well away from that roller coaster. Any advice for navigating this latest development, it's so tempting to want to go back to that old comfortable and dysfunctional place her and I were in?
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Post by emkaye on May 1, 2018 14:22:37 GMT
I haven't been on this forum in eons. I'm kind of in the same situation here. I was dumped by a DA about 6 months ago. We have remained friends since then. As far as I know he has remained single but I'm not sure as I stopped "trolling" his social media (it was making me feel horrible). Yes, I too have a hard time moving on and harbor some "hope" of reconnection. HOWEVER, I know that any reconciliation at this point would not be healthy for either one of us. I think it's ok that you reached out to her, but also SET STRONG BOUNDARIES. You can let her know how much you loved her and that you would love for her to be a romantic partner, BUT that she NOT contact you UNLESS fully committed to a relationship. And then WAIT. She may never come back but at least you're letting your intentions be known. Move on with your life. Get some counseling, rekindle other friendships, work on some new goals and get busy working on your life. Let her see that you are not just wallowing around wasting your life in self-pity. She may come back, she may not but you'll be a better person if/when she does. You deserve the best, whether it be her or someone else.
One of the reasons I got off of this board was because it just kept triggering me and making me more anxious and depressed. Changing my point of view and focus has helped me tremendously. Refocus your life and build a better you. It doesn't happen overnight but it DOES happen. I am growing stronger every day.
Lastly, I just want to reiterate that this board was a great source of comfort and support in my darkest hours. I wish all of you the BEST.
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Post by tinyrobotman on May 1, 2018 20:30:09 GMT
Emkaye. Thanks for the reply. The way I see this I have two choices (at least healthy ones 🙂)
1. Work on my own AP issues and get to the point where I can be in a regular friendship with her at a safe distance. It can't return to the non relationship relationship we had. It's important that I not let it cross that boundary or I will be hurt yet again in the future. I can then move on to find someone new (hopefully secure-ish)!
2. Tell her that I love her but need to end the friendship unless she wants to try a real relationship. Trying a relationship also has to come with the caveat that she needs to work on her own DA issues (and me my AP issues 🙂). I think an AP and a DA/FA who are aware of their own issues and love each other can work, but they have to be willing to put in a lot of work and understand the situation well. Maybe she would come back or maybe I'll move on and find someone new but either way the friendship is over.
Ironically she ended this recent relationship with this guy because he wanted her to give up her male friends (including me). She chose her friends and told him it was a deal breaker. That shows how important I really am to her and I feel like maybe a strong arguement for option #1.
I think she has such strong DA and FA tendencies that she will likely remain alone (she would always joke that she's going to be a spinster). It's actually so sad and I feel for her. I can think of a few guys over the years including myself that would have been great for her but she just can't handle receiving or giving love so she always finds some fault. Maybe another reason for #1 since she will always need friends.
Tough either way.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2018 21:44:30 GMT
Emkaye. Thanks for the reply. The way I see this I have two choices (at least healthy ones 🙂) 1. Work on my own AP issues and get to the point where I can be in a regular friendship with her at a safe distance. It can't return to the non relationship relationship we had. It's important that I not let it cross that boundary or I will be hurt yet again in the future. I can then move on to find someone new (hopefully secure-ish)! 2. Tell her that I love her but need to end the friendship unless she wants to try a real relationship. Trying a relationship also has to come with the caveat that she needs to work on her own DA issues (and me my AP issues 🙂). I think an AP and a DA/FA who are aware of their own issues and love each other can work, but they have to be willing to put in a lot of work and understand the situation well. Maybe she would come back or maybe I'll move on and find someone new but either way the friendship is over. Ironically she ended this recent relationship with this guy because he wanted her to give up her male friends (including me). She chose her friends and told him it was a deal breaker. That shows how important I really am to her and I feel like maybe a strong arguement for option #1. I think she has such strong DA and FA tendencies that she will likely remain alone (she would always joke that she's going to be a spinster). It's actually so sad and I feel for her. I can think of a few guys over the years including myself that would have been great for her but she just can't handle receiving or giving love so she always finds some fault. Maybe another reason for #1 since she will always need friends. Tough either way. I didn't read the whole thread, but I wanted to comment that I would choose my friends over a bf any day of the week. A guy that wants you to give up your friends is insecure and controlling and doesn't make for a good relationship anyway. I think this is a perfectly valid "fault" that she couldn't deal with. I also don't know why you feel sad for her. Some people don't prioritize romantic relationships and that's ok and not sad at all. It's sad if a person needs to have a romantic relationship to be happy. |
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Post by tinyrobotman on May 2, 2018 0:31:20 GMT
I didn't read the whole thread, but I wanted to comment that I would choose my friends over a bf any day of the week. A guy that wants you to give up your friends is insecure and controlling and doesn't make for a good relationship anyway. I think this is a perfectly valid "fault" that she couldn't deal with. I also don't know why you feel sad for her. Some people don't prioritize romantic relationships and that's ok and not sad at all. It's sad if a person needs to have a romantic relationship to be happy. I agree 100% that it was a perfectly valid fault in this case. Huge red flag in my book that often signals controlling or insecure behavior throughout the relationship. The reason I said it's sad (and I mean that in a compassionate way) is that she wants a romantic relationship but her DA/FA tendencies are keeping her from finding one (not in the case of this guy likely, but in other cases). It's sad anytime a dysfunction keeps you from what you want. Being AP has lead me to a lot of bad relationships where I settled for less than I should have, that's sad as well. |
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Post by tinyrobotman on May 2, 2018 0:46:43 GMT
tinyrobotman , I agree with what emkaye says. I am slightly FA but predominantly AP when I was with my FA ex. I can't say which option is better. I would have said 2 in a heartbeat prior to my last relationship which led me here, but from what I hear, that sort of 'ultimatum' is pressure to an FA who would likely just flee forever. I'm not sure you want that - at the same time, I feel it is the wrong motivation to choose option 1 if you are putting her feelings above your own. The fear of not wanting to put pressure on her to take responsibility or make a decision about where you two stand shouldn't override what you want with her. Can you really handle just a friendship? (Quite possibly a lower quality one too?) Right, I would NEVER put it as an ultimatum to her. As seen with this last guy and his (unreasonable) demand, she quickly kicked him to the curb. She defends her independence fiercely. If it was #2 I would just say that I can't handle being "just friends" and leave it at that. She would have to decide if she misses me enough over time and starts to view me differently. As for #1, I would have to be truly in a place where I don't view her as a potential romantic partner. Honestly I'm getting there with time and knowing how difficult her DA style would be as well as working on my AP problem of viewing someone you get attached to as THE ONE. I pretty much never had to experience her DA behavior (or her my AP behavior) before because for so many years we were both in this friendzone place where she felt just far enough away and I felt just close enough (at least in my imagination). We barely had any conflict up until now because we never asked more or less of each other. Complete house of cards that collapsed when she asked for less and I asked for more. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 14:38:40 GMT
I agree 100% that it was a perfectly valid fault in this case. Huge red flag in my book that often signals controlling or insecure behavior throughout the relationship. The reason I said it's sad (and I mean that in a compassionate way) is that she wants a romantic relationship but her DA/FA tendencies are keeping her from finding one (not in the case of this guy likely, but in other cases). It's sad anytime a dysfunction keeps you from what you want. Being AP has lead me to a lot of bad relationships where I settled for less than I should have, that's sad as well. If she is DA, it's unlikely she actively wants a relationship. (That's sort of the hallmark of being DA). Both AP and avoidant tendencies keeps people from finding relationships that work. Being DA, people that don't know me well, remark that it's sad or unfortunate when I am not in a relationship and I am thinking why? I am just as happy being single than I am in a relationship, sometimes happier without one. It's just a projection of what they want. |
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Post by tinyrobotman on May 3, 2018 20:30:19 GMT
Update on the update: So I decided to choose option #1 and try to be her friend only. I think in some ways this could be a good challenge for me to work toward being more secure and learn to calm my attachment impluses and set boundaries. I don't believe that trying to break out of the friend zone with her is possible or might not even be a good idea.
So her and met up and talked the other day. She was very happy to see me after 2 months of NC. We had a great talk and even got into attachment theory which she was open too hearing about. Overall a good evening but felt a bit triggered by the end with a lot of deep emotional conversation. I have to keep bringing myself back around to knowing there's someone out there who will love me back and it's not her. My friend loves me like a brother and I need to be happy about that. Still its hard to not want to just partner up with your best friend when that feeling comes on. Obviously still work to do on myself.
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