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Post by simply on Aug 22, 2018 2:05:02 GMT
Hi,
I'm finding that when people's attachment styles switch from avoidant to anxious, doesn't it just boils down to how much they are into someone? I have noticed for myself, that when I'm very attracted or into someone, I am AP but when I'm not into someone, (usually there is no physical or sexual attraction), but they are emotionally open, caring and sensitive then that's when I'm avoidant with them if they are keen on me. So is it really just about that? Because I notice that with avoidants too. They become avoidant with people who they don't dig so much but when they meet someone they are very attracted to, they become anxious.
So isn't it very normal and natural to act in avoidant ways when you don't like someone much but you somehow want to keep them hanging around even if you have no intentions to commit to them and act in anxious ways when you think you're not in their league etc?
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 22, 2018 2:16:52 GMT
Hi, I'm finding that when people's attachment styles switch from avoidant to anxious, doesn't it just boils down to how much they are into someone? I have noticed for myself, that when I'm very attracted or into someone, I am AP but when I'm not into someone, (usually there is no physical or sexual attraction), but they are emotionally open, caring and sensitive then that's when I'm avoidant with them if they are keen on me. So is it really just about that? Because I notice that with avoidants too. They become avoidant with people who they don't dig so much but when they meet someone they are very attracted to, they become anxious. So isn't it very normal and natural to act in avoidant ways when you don't like someone much but you somehow want to keep them hanging around even if you have no intentions to commit to them and act in anxious ways when you think you're not in their league etc? I understand where you are coming from...and I too thought I was being "avoidant" with guys I did not like....but what I have decided is that I am being an avoidant version of AP, not a true "avoidant". It is my own "interpretation" of avoidant from having parents who displayed what I experienced as avoidant tendencies with me. As I have explored my attachment...I realize that I also experience my "interpretation" of FA. I think that is where many people get into trouble....we interpret another's experience and then assume our interpretation is correct. But Juniper or Goldilocks can speak to the DA side much better. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 2:27:51 GMT
i read this and initially chose not to comment, but i would be willing to say that this is a severe over simplification of a very complex issue, which involves alterations in the attachment system of the nervous system. it's been pretty well researched. the question is ignorant in light of the deep research that's been done and published, and i don't care to get into the discussion on this level. I'm impacted by dismissive attachment issues with someone i care about very much, and have endured a lifetime of deep isolation that had nothing to do with attraction or not, to a potential mate. I wouldn't bother explaining it to someone who hasn't bothered to educate themselves before advancing such a theory. It would be a poor use of my time. Enjoy the boards!  |
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Post by goldilocks on Aug 22, 2018 2:56:18 GMT
Into someone/not into someone is a seperate axis from attachment issues.
Why would one even bother to date a person one is not into?
If I was walking away from a guy I was not into and he felt rejected, that would be bit of a bummer for him if he was into me, but it would be a normal part of life.
There would be no problem to bring to these boards.
I am of course into the guy I like and find him attractive, but have trouble showing sufficient interest. Even when I have the knowledge of how I would have liked to respond to him coming a step closer, I may find I have taken a step back as I felt stressed in the moment. I feel sad that he feels rejected. Here, an actual problem exists.
Feeling stressed in intimate situations is of course due to the trauma we have faced as dismissives. Just read Love Compass, Jeb's pages to learn before making up theories.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 22, 2018 3:01:15 GMT
Thanks juniper and goldilocks....I just was not able to find the words to explain what you have stated so well above. |
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Post by leavethelighton on Aug 23, 2018 23:35:09 GMT
Yes, but
1. It's kind of a chicken or egg thing. Which (attraction/AP, not as attracted/DA) comes first? What sparks what? I am not sure.
2. The AP dynamic is linked to sustained longing and desire. When it's unrequited, it can last indefinitely.
3. I am not sure it's the physicality of the person that creates the "attraction" or dynamic so much as the correspnding attachment styles that creates it in a way we interpret as being linked to the physicality. In other words, let's say you have AP tendencies, it may be that if at the first moments you are physically attracted to someone but they are also more AP or secure, you will soon not be so attracted to them, but if they are DA (or maybe FA?) you will end up in a DA-AP thing and be very attracted to them. You might then think it's physical attraction but it's really more complicated.
In short, I think it's complicated.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 0:21:37 GMT
Yes, but 1. It's kind of a chicken or egg thing. Which (attraction/AP, not as attracted/DA) comes first? What sparks what? I am not sure. 2. The AP dynamic is linked to sustained longing and desire. When it's unrequited, it can last indefinitely. 3. I am not sure it's the physicality of the person that creates the "attraction" or dynamic so much as the correspnding attachment styles that creates it in a way we interpret as being linked to the physicality. In other words, let's say you have AP tendencies, it may be that if at the first moments you are physically attracted to someone but they are also more AP or secure, you will soon not be so attracted to them, but if they are DA (or maybe FA?) you will end up in a DA-AP thing and be very attracted to them. You might then think it's physical attraction but it's really more complicated. In short, I think it's complicated. i disagree. these patterns are initiated in infancy and childhood and are detectable and influencing interactions very early. impacting emotional bonds and personal characteristics well before a child even gains sexual maturity or the desire for a mate. it manifests in dating and relationships later on because of the nature of that dynamic, but it's present and impactful to emotional well being long long before that. |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 24, 2018 0:23:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 8:08:48 GMT
Interesting tones of response to this question from a newby, dependant upon the posters' attachment styles.
That's an observation, BTW, not a theory.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 8:09:39 GMT
When you're not into someone you're not avoiding attachment, you do not want it. It's not like you're obligated to like everyone who is nice to you.
That being said, we are sometimes attracted to certain people because of patterns we learnt during childhood.
I know I'm not attracted to anxious people but I'm not being avoidant- it's not what I want in a relationship.
I am attracted to avoidant people but not each and every. Their attachment style doesn't create physical and sexual attraction. They simply display things I value in a partner (things like independence etc) but I do not enjoy the dismissive part at all.
I think on this forum there's often an assumption that when DA ends a relationship it's because they're being avoidant and it's attachment speaking. Sometimes they simply find out it's not what they wanted. Just like secure people.
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Post by andy on Sept 2, 2018 7:42:04 GMT
Has anyone felt confused about whether attachment dynamics played a role in their feelings or lack of feelings for someone? I've asked myself this question a lot.
Although it was my AP tendencies and participation in an AP/DA dynamic that brought me to the boards, I've been in several relationships where I was the partner wanting less time together, more independence, and so on, and I could tell that the other person wanted to be closer. I've often been confused about whether I felt that way because I just didn't feel strongly romantically attracted to that person (even though I really liked them!), end of story, or whether there was a dismissive undercurrent in my lukewarm feelings. I know I've said before that I have always landed in the secure to AP zone, but I actually have a sliver of doubt about this.
I tend to think that my feelings of disengagement in those relationships were not attachment-driven because I didn't feel a lot of conflict or anxiety. I can't imagine breaking it off suddenly with one of those people because the decision just wouldn't have much urgency behind it... I could take my time, think it over, weigh various options, etc. I can't relate to feeling intensely triggered by closeness with another person in same way DAs describe, even if I feel smothered sometimes if somebody I'm not sure about seems to be coming on strong.
Maybe I'm just not as clear as most people are about who I'm into or not into. Usually it feels confusing to me! Sometimes I worry that I only ever get the clear feeling if some dysfunctional unattainability dynamic kicks in.
Maybe I'm just a big overthinker....
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 2, 2018 19:23:20 GMT
Has anyone felt confused about whether attachment dynamics played a role in their feelings or lack of feelings for someone? I've asked myself this question a lot. Although it was my AP tendencies and participation in an AP/DA dynamic that brought me to the boards, I've been in several relationships where I was the partner wanting less time together, more independence, and so on, and I could tell that the other person wanted to be closer. I've often been confused about whether I felt that way because I just didn't feel strongly romantically attracted to that person (even though I really liked them!), end of story, or whether there was a dismissive undercurrent in my lukewarm feelings. I know I've said before that I have always landed in the secure to AP zone, but I actually have a sliver of doubt about this. I tend to think that my feelings of disengagement in those relationships were not attachment-driven because I didn't feel a lot of conflict or anxiety. I can't imagine breaking it off suddenly with one of those people because the decision just wouldn't have much urgency behind it... I could take my time, think it over, weigh various options, etc. I can't relate to feeling intensely triggered by closeness with another person in same way DAs describe, even if I feel smothered sometimes if somebody I'm not sure about seems to be coming on strong. Maybe I'm just not as clear as most people are about who I'm into or not into. Usually it feels confusing to me! Sometimes I worry that I only ever get the clear feeling if some dysfunctional unattainability dynamic kicks in. Maybe I'm just a big overthinker.... Yup. I feel like I could have written this post myself. I think it's ok to not have a clear consistent feeling that you want to be with someone or have feelings for them, as long as you spend more time wanting to be with them than not. Even with people where most of the time I think I want so badly to be with them, maybe they are a person who is often triggering my AP side hard, I still have moments of doubt, asking myself, "Am I really that into them?" or thinking they are not looking that good that day, maybe they actually never look good and I'm not even attracted to them, or things like that. I think that learning that having intense feelings for someone early on is not necessary for a relationship, and might even be an indicator that someone might not be the best choice for a relationship, can help us learn to make healthier choices. But it can also be hard to make a relationship choice that is against your attachment system, worrying that feelings will never materialize and that something will always feel missing. Have you ever been in person with one of those people you didn't feel strongly romantically attracted to and been feeling smothered and overcome with a sudden urge to flee? Like maybe they are clinging onto you in bed and you just get up and go to the bathroom and stay in there for 30 minutes to escape? I think sometimes people can create stories after the fact to support decisions that were made based on feelings we don't fully understand. You might see this in the case of someone acting objectively like they are very into someone and then ending it in a way that felt sudden to the other person, and only when questioned on the suddenness do they say they were never into them and it wasn't a sudden decision. Was it true, that they were thinking about ending it for a while and just never expressed anything to indicate that to the other person, or did they create this narrative after the fact to rationalize things to themselves or the other person? Additionally, I'm not sure all people with avoidant tendencies always do have a feeling of urgency when it comes to breaking it off with someone who wants more closeness. In many cases they might just avoid the person. And they may also have no idea if they want to break it off because they are scared of closeness, or because they just aren't that into the person, or because they in fact actually hate some things about the person, or if it's that they don't actually want a relationship with anyone. Perhaps the urgency might be affected by the situation, how strongly avoidant someone is and how self-aware they are? For me, as a person like you who thought I was a total AP until I started thinking about all my relationships or dating experiences including the ones that I ended, I think I feel a sense of urgency if the other person is behaving very AP-like and don't feel a sense of urgency if they are behaving secure, but I'll think more on that. |
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Post by andy on Sept 3, 2018 18:09:03 GMT
Yup. I feel like I could have written this post myself. I think it's ok to not have a clear consistent feeling that you want to be with someone or have feelings for them, as long as you spend more time wanting to be with them than not. Even with people where most of the time I think I want so badly to be with them, maybe they are a person who is often triggering my AP side hard, I still have moments of doubt, asking myself, "Am I really that into them?" or thinking they are not looking that good that day, maybe they actually never look good and I'm not even attracted to them, or things like that. I think that learning that having intense feelings for someone early on is not necessary for a relationship, and might even be an indicator that someone might not be the best choice for a relationship, can help us learn to make healthier choices. But it can also be hard to make a relationship choice that is against your attachment system, worrying that feelings will never materialize and that something will always feel missing. Have you ever been in person with one of those people you didn't feel strongly romantically attracted to and been feeling smothered and overcome with a sudden urge to flee? Like maybe they are clinging onto you in bed and you just get up and go to the bathroom and stay in there for 30 minutes to escape? I think sometimes people can create stories after the fact to support decisions that were made based on feelings we don't fully understand. You might see this in the case of someone acting objectively like they are very into someone and then ending it in a way that felt sudden to the other person, and only when questioned on the suddenness do they say they were never into them and it wasn't a sudden decision. Was it true, that they were thinking about ending it for a while and just never expressed anything to indicate that to the other person, or did they create this narrative after the fact to rationalize things to themselves or the other person? Additionally, I'm not sure all people with avoidant tendencies always do have a feeling of urgency when it comes to breaking it off with someone who wants more closeness. In many cases they might just avoid the person. And they may also have no idea if they want to break it off because they are scared of closeness, or because they just aren't that into the person, or because they in fact actually hate some things about the person, or if it's that they don't actually want a relationship with anyone. Perhaps the urgency might be affected by the situation, how strongly avoidant someone is and how self-aware they are? For me, as a person like you who thought I was a total AP until I started thinking about all my relationships or dating experiences including the ones that I ended, I think I feel a sense of urgency if the other person is behaving very AP-like and don't feel a sense of urgency if they are behaving secure, but I'll think more on that. , it is so nice to hear from you that you can relate to this! "Have you ever been in person with one of those people you didn't feel strongly romantically attracted to and been feeling smothered and overcome with a sudden urge to flee? Like maybe they are clinging onto you in bed and you just get up and go to the bathroom and stay in there for 30 minutes to escape?" Not exactly.... but until I was 30 years old (and I'm 36 now) I avoided romantic relationships almost completely. I guess there were just a couple of relationships during that time that were about 4 months long each, one where I broke it off and the other where my ex broke it off, and interestingly I would say that those two exes were both strongly AP and I was more aloof in both relationships. During that period I would go on many many first dates and 'reassure' myself that I wasn't feeling it with any of them. I felt content being single. Sounds highly avoidant, right?! There were other issues at play not related to attachment which I won't explain here, but I'm sure attachment was also part of it. I would also keep my friends on a two-week rotation... kind of at arm's length... though the reason for that wasn't that I wanted more space but that I was afraid they would think it was weird if I said I wanted to spend more time with them, that they would wonder where my real friends were. So there was an AP fear of rejection underlying my distance from my friends. I have changed so much since then! I treasure my MANY authentic and intimate friendships and I can say with confidence that they are highly secure in their attachment dynamics. So this is a first sign of progress, and I think the rest is coming along too, over time. I think this is so wise: "I think it's ok to not have a clear consistent feeling that you want to be with someone or have feelings for them, as long as you spend more time wanting to be with them than not." This thought is really liberating because it frees you up from having to analyze and agonize and stress about whether or not you're feeling it. The thing about relationships is that we choose them. For overthinking types, it can be wonderful to step out of relationship assessment mode and just focus on putting your best self into the relationship and nurturing it and seeing what happens. I can really relate to this too! "Even with people where most of the time I think I want so badly to be with them, maybe they are a person who is often triggering my AP side hard, I still have moments of doubt, asking myself, 'Am I really that into them?'" Actually I have thought of creating a thread about this to see whether anyone can relate to the following. About five years ago I struggled with what's known as Relationship OCD or R-OCD, which is where you obsessively question whether you feel the 'right' way about a partner, check repeatedly "How do I feel now? How about NOW? Okay how about NOW?," and feel extremely distressed/panicked by intrusive thoughts that you don't actually like them. It's sort of like having deactivating thoughts about a partner and a relationship, except you are horrified/terrified that you are having them and want to reassure yourself that the relationship is a good one and you feel the 'right' way, and so you keep trying to mentally reassure yourself but that only makes the anxiety worse because full reassurance is not possible. It is really interesting that the literature on R-OCD hardly ever mentions attachment... it is really not understood as an attachment-related disorder. Anyway, another wonderful sign of my progress is that I know that I am largely recovered from the R-OCD tendencies although they may surface again subtly if I'm with someone I really like who isn't acting avoidant... therefore my obsessive questioning drive shifts away from analyzing where they're at and starts analyzing where I'm at, both of which are distressing in different ways. I guess I'm full of surprises! The biggest surprise of all, no doubt, will be this. I have a wonderful partner I've been with for more than five years. I never mentioned him before because I didn't want the fact that I'm poly/non-monogamous to create a huge distraction from the attachment issues I wanted to discuss. When I take the attachment style tests with him in mind, I test secure all the way. I readily turn to him for help or to work through challenges, and I feel comfortable being 100% myself around him and knowing he loves me that way. And I'm happy to support him and be with him in whatever emotional state he's in, and I love him the way he is as well. However, sometimes I feel guilt about our relationship as I feel he wants to be closer with me and I like things as they are (e.g. living separately, having one-to-one time weekly), and I keep looking for another relationship that will feel more romantically sparky to me as ours has always felt like kindred friends, which is beautiful and irreplaceable and also quite low-energy. I have done a lot of soul-searching to figure out whether we have a mini avoidant/anxious dance going on with me playing the more avoidant role, even though we're both quite emotionally available to each other, or whether the shape our relationship has taken is more just based on how we each feel and what seems to be a fit. I don't know the answer. Wow, we have really steered this thread away from the original topic.... |
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 4, 2018 4:22:10 GMT
happyidiot , it is so nice to hear from you that you can relate to this! "Have you ever been in person with one of those people you didn't feel strongly romantically attracted to and been feeling smothered and overcome with a sudden urge to flee? Like maybe they are clinging onto you in bed and you just get up and go to the bathroom and stay in there for 30 minutes to escape?" Not exactly.... but until I was 30 years old (and I'm 36 now) I avoided romantic relationships almost completely. I guess there were just a couple of relationships during that time that were about 4 months long each, one where I broke it off and the other where my ex broke it off, and interestingly I would say that those two exes were both strongly AP and I was more aloof in both relationships. During that period I would go on many many first dates and 'reassure' myself that I wasn't feeling it with any of them. I felt content being single. Sounds highly avoidant, right?! There were other issues at play not related to attachment which I won't explain here, but I'm sure attachment was also part of it. I would also keep my friends on a two-week rotation... kind of at arm's length... though the reason for that wasn't that I wanted more space but that I was afraid they would think it was weird if I said I wanted to spend more time with them, that they would wonder where my real friends were. So there was an AP fear of rejection underlying my distance from my friends. I have changed so much since then! I treasure my MANY authentic and intimate friendships and I can say with confidence that they are highly secure in their attachment dynamics. So this is a first sign of progress, and I think the rest is coming along too, over time. I think this is so wise: "I think it's ok to not have a clear consistent feeling that you want to be with someone or have feelings for them, as long as you spend more time wanting to be with them than not." This thought is really liberating because it frees you up from having to analyze and agonize and stress about whether or not you're feeling it. The thing about relationships is that we choose them. For overthinking types, it can be wonderful to step out of relationship assessment mode and just focus on putting your best self into the relationship and nurturing it and seeing what happens. I can really relate to this too! "Even with people where most of the time I think I want so badly to be with them, maybe they are a person who is often triggering my AP side hard, I still have moments of doubt, asking myself, 'Am I really that into them?'" Actually I have thought of creating a thread about this to see whether anyone can relate to the following. About five years ago I struggled with what's known as Relationship OCD or R-OCD, which is where you obsessively question whether you feel the 'right' way about a partner, check repeatedly "How do I feel now? How about NOW? Okay how about NOW?," and feel extremely distressed/panicked by intrusive thoughts that you don't actually like them. It's sort of like having deactivating thoughts about a partner and a relationship, except you are horrified/terrified that you are having them and want to reassure yourself that the relationship is a good one and you feel the 'right' way, and so you keep trying to mentally reassure yourself but that only makes the anxiety worse because full reassurance is not possible. It is really interesting that the literature on R-OCD hardly ever mentions attachment... it is really not understood as an attachment-related disorder. Anyway, another wonderful sign of my progress is that I know that I am largely recovered from the R-OCD tendencies although they may surface again subtly if I'm with someone I really like who isn't acting avoidant... therefore my obsessive questioning drive shifts away from analyzing where they're at and starts analyzing where I'm at, both of which are distressing in different ways. I guess I'm full of surprises! The biggest surprise of all, no doubt, will be this. I have a wonderful partner I've been with for more than five years. I never mentioned him before because I didn't want the fact that I'm poly/non-monogamous to create a huge distraction from the attachment issues I wanted to discuss. When I take the attachment style tests with him in mind, I test secure all the way. I readily turn to him for help or to work through challenges, and I feel comfortable being 100% myself around him and knowing he loves me that way. And I'm happy to support him and be with him in whatever emotional state he's in, and I love him the way he is as well. However, sometimes I feel guilt about our relationship as I feel he wants to be closer with me and I like things as they are (e.g. living separately, having one-to-one time weekly), and I keep looking for another relationship that will feel more romantically sparky to me as ours has always felt like kindred friends, which is beautiful and irreplaceable and also quite low-energy. I have done a lot of soul-searching to figure out whether we have a mini avoidant/anxious dance going on with me playing the more avoidant role, even though we're both quite emotionally available to each other, or whether the shape our relationship has taken is more just based on how we each feel and what seems to be a fit. I don't know the answer. Wow, we have really steered this thread away from the original topic.... Interesting! I think it's still fairly on-topic, since the thread is about having different attachment styles in different situations/with different people. The R-OCD sounds familiar to me, although I don't think I've ever had an extreme and distressing enough version of those thoughts to fit a diagnosis, I certainly get them regularly. I currently have a theory that there are far more people whose main style is FA than is widely known. In infants it roughly corresponds to "disorganized," and I think that is a fitting word. Attachment styles are a spectrum, and even people who are usually very strongly DA or AP can display traits of the opposite style under certain circumstances, for example a DA dating someone who is way more DA than them might feel/act a bit AP. I've read that this can make people "mistakenly" think they are FA, but I just don't believe this can account for all the cases of people who come to these boards and end up wondering if they are FA. Do you generally have a high self-esteem or low self-esteem? Do you communicate with your current primary partner about each other's wants and needs? What does he say about the situation and if he is ok with how things are? |
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Post by andy on Sept 4, 2018 5:20:04 GMT
I could totally believe your FA theory. People often have the potential to feel and act really differently in different circumstances.
Hmm... my self-esteem is... growing significantly? Probably average if not a little higher than average, but in the past quite low. And there can still be situations that trigger my low self-esteem feelings, like chasing after a DA.
Do you think self-esteem is related to feeling confident and clear (in a gentle and measured way... not in a fanatical AP way) about one's own romantic feelings? To me, self-esteem seems closely linked to self-knowledge and self-trust.
My partner and I have talked about our needs and feelings regarding the relationship many times. It's a conversation we keep cycling back to. He says he's come to accept the format of our relationship and feels okay about it. In the past he was open about feeling hurt about various aspects of it, but we've made some little adjustments and in the past couple of years he hasn't voiced that. Even though we talk openly about it I still feel worried that he isn't fully happy with things but I also know that his needs and happiness are his to define and act on. Describing things this way doesn't exactly make the relationship sound like a shining model of security, does it?
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