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Post by mysteryuser on Nov 11, 2023 14:06:38 GMT
I've been dating for the last 2 months after having done a lot of work. I wanted to share because even though I don't feel good right now, I'm proud of what I have done.
I posted about this person before in my previous thread - a late mid/late 20s man who came across quite secure at first. Very consistent, thoughtful, open, and as reliable as it gets in the early dating context. He mentioned, unprompted and on multiple occasions, that he thinks conflict is important and necessary.
Turns out he was not secure. Over time, I learnt of his string of multiple short-term relationships, how his ex's were 'infatuated' with him and didn't 'challenge' him enough. He said they usually coincided with moves. He also admitted to being an avoidant.
I was going to end things, but continued because he mentioned he has done a lot of self-improvement and emotional work in the last year and half, and I didn't want to swear off someone based on his past. I told myself I would proceed with caution till I observed avoidant behavior towards me.
After 4 lovely dates, on the 5th date he felt different. I had mentioned before that I'd want to take things slow physically. But he was overly handsy this time, and I felt discomfort and concern. I eventually expressed the concern/fear non-violently, although not in the most effective manner, and I'm still learning to do this bit. He got extremely defensive. I was still calm, and made it clear it was about my own fears and I don't believe he is in the wrong/asked him not to take things personally, and that the fear will subside but I will need to take things slow. He started intellectualizing my fear, in a way invalidating it by implying it wasn't logical. He expressed I shouldn't "pathologize" his physical needs and that it isn't a bad thing for him to find me attractive. Through this conversation, he gave me many indications that he was going to leave/end things (by moving my hand away, getting up, gathering his stuff, etc). Eventually after calming down, he said he wants to continue and that I'm wonderful, but a part of him says no, and he is trying to listen to that.
Through this 'abandonment', though I had the physical symptoms of anxiety, I was calm and collected. A thought kept ringing in my head - "if he leaves, he is not for me". It kept me from fawning, proving my worth, asking for minutely detailed explanations for leaving, etc - all of which I've done in the past. In fact, when he tried to explain more, I cut him short and said he doesn't need to explain. I didn't care.
The next few days were weird. I felt proud, but it also brought up a lot of shame. The core belief of "I'm not worth sticking around for" has been ringing all this time, and I'm going to tackle this big one now. I also felt bad about ending up with yet another avoidant and abandonment, but my therapist highlighted that this time the abandonment was because of me drawing boundaries and doing things correctly.
Funnily enough, after about 5 days, he texted me saying he feels ambivalent and asked if I want to talk. I said I don't think we would be compatible and I think it's best we go our separate ways.
Weirdly, I still feel bad because of a scarcity mindset making me feel like it's hard to find people I connect with in all the ways in which we did connect, etc. but I didn't feel emotionally secure, and that's what truly matters.
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Post by cherrycola on Nov 12, 2023 0:22:58 GMT
Wow. He did not react well at all to that and I'm proud you stood your own and carried thru with upholding your boundary. It's night and day when someone respects your boundary vs says gross things in response.
I once needed two months to be okay with physical intimacy and all the guy said was let me know what you need from me to feel comfortable. And that is how someone should react to that boundary. If it's not for them then fine, then can end things calmly without trying to intellectualize your feelings or tell you that you are wrong.
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Post by mysteryuser on Nov 15, 2023 1:09:38 GMT
So things have since turned very..interesting. After I asked to go our separate ways, he sent me an extremely (extremely!) long message apologizing for his behavior, acknowledging the mistakes he made, and explained how he tends to need more time and separation from heated situations to think things through. It was a very long couple texts, so I decided to have the conversation in person instead, because I couldn't read and respond to so much.
He mentioned he has always been better at systematizing over empathizing, and that it's a life-long process and one he takes seriously, but it is a challenge of dating him and he would like patience from someone dating him as he works on improving that aspect. He also mentioned he misunderstood my cues until it was too late because I did also cuddle/kiss him (though it was quite PG on my end) and that he is deeply sorry for that and asked me to explain more if needed. He mentioned the defensiveness was more so hurt feelings that he felt because of what he interpreted as consistent mistrust on my end (and I'll admit I wasn't very good at hiding it). He mentioned he didn't think we ended things that day (?) and though I know we didn't say those words and he said that night that it wasn't implied that things were over, I don't know how we had such a different read on the same thing. He said he wants to continue dating.
I've had avoidants end things and come back to give me nothing, but despite my decision I found the text to be very vulnerable and self-aware (and I also read snippets to my bestfriend and my therapist who was in the loop, both of whom acknowledged the self-awareness and vulnerability). This has confused me a ton.
My best friend, who happens to be a self-aware avoidant working on herself and in a long-term relationship, mentions she sees parts of him in herself. She is self-aware and does exhibit behavior at times that feels avoidant but is rooted in stress and fear, but is able to take space, acknowledge it, and correct it.
I'm not quite sure what to make of any of this, but I am not anxious about the situation. I do like his personality - when he isn't defensive - a lot, and this might very well be the first time I'm *not* anxious/insecure about someone I otherwise found interesting.
I will clarify that I'm not pursuing him, in fact it is the opposite, and he is aware of my willingness to walk away if my boundaries are invaded and feelings invalidated. He asked to meet me again before thanksgiving, but I'm going to instead use this time to think about what I need/want here.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 15, 2023 2:23:01 GMT
That was nice that he explained himself and apologized. I'd be very wary because self-aware and vulnerable doesn't mean ready or compatible. I'd still say you're a few steps ahead of where he is in terms of working through all your own stuff, because it is a big red flag to have such a massive miscommunication so early on in dating. He can be a very decent guy, and aware he needs patience, but that doesn't mean he's the guy for you or you're obligated to give him patience when you're still sorting through your own issues. It's a lot to take on. Don't feel bad about not giving him a second chance, or about giving him one if you decide you really want to try again. Personally, I just look back on my early dating + gross miscommunication situations where the guys were aware or even in therapy, and those miscommunications never improved. Just weren't ready yet so we weren't on the same page and things were too difficult to continue with someone I still barely knew when it came down to it. Relationships don't need to be that hard. When they are, it's usually for a reason (that reason is often lack of compatibility).
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Post by mysteryuser on Nov 15, 2023 3:09:01 GMT
I definitely agree with all of that. When he asked what I think about continuing, I told him I needed time. The last few days the thought about things not needing to be *this* hard so early on have kept ringing through my head as well. I think the lack of anxiety has also helped me think a lot more clearly. I know this level of defensiveness is unacceptable to me, and it's something I've mentioned to him.
He did say this was an edge case where both of us didn't communicate in the best way and both interpreted the situation to be wildly differently (and I agree with this) and requested me not to take this as an example of how he handles things when I express my feelings. But this is the only example I have of such a thing, and not one that went down well. I would have to know how he handles such things in other instances before I consider him to be a serious prospect.
As for patience, I agree that it is a lot to take on, especially while I'm working on myself. My best friend's boyfriend is quite secure, and has been able to give her the space and time needed for her to grow. But I'm not sure I'm there yet.
I don't think I feel bad about not giving him a second chance either. In fact I'm quite irritated by the whole thing. I think the only reason I'm entertaining the thought is that we align on a lot of our core perspectives and values. But of course, that doesn't mean there is compatibility.
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Post by cherrycola on Nov 15, 2023 3:52:44 GMT
Really had to think about this one for a bit. There were some parts really niggling at me from your original post, and I couldn't put my finger on why, beyond that I've had my physical boundaries repeatedly violated by men.
This is the part that really stood out to me
"Through this conversation, he gave me many indications that he was going to leave/end things (by moving my hand away, getting up, gathering his stuff, etc). Eventually after calming down, he said he wants to continue and that I'm wonderful, but a part of him says no, and he is trying to listen to that."
Now I wasn't there, so I could be reading it wrong (again thru my experiences) but it feels manipulative. It feels like I didn't get my way so instead of changing the activity I am now going to just leave. And even after saying he wants to continue he says a part of him says no?!?
"Then, 5 days later he texts that he feels ambivalent?!" 5 days?! Did he seriously not send you a text for 5 days to apologize?
"He also mentioned he misunderstood my cues until it was too late because I did also cuddle/kiss him" This is also cringe to me. consent should not just be implied it should be enthusiastic and can be withdrawn at any time for any reason.
"He did say this was an edge case where both of us didn't communicate in the best way and both interpreted the situation to be wildly differently" this feels like victim blaming. You shouldn't have to tiptoe around someone's feelings if you are not feeling comfortable with a situation. I don't think you interpreted it that wrong at all, and he is trying to minimize what happened.
I also have to ask, although he apologized. Did he validate that your feelings and boundaries are 100% valid and he understands that you need to take your time? Did he provide any concrete steps on how to prevent this going forward? What exactly does he mean by patience? Is it more him throwing a mini tantrum and disappearing for 5 days when he doesn't like the next boundary that you set?
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Post by alexandra on Nov 15, 2023 9:24:11 GMT
I was getting the ick too, from him disrespecting her physical boundaries and getting defensive because he wasn't getting what he wanted and lashing out about that and the perceived rejection. But I didn't comment directly on that because I've also had it happen to me and I wasn't sure if I might be projecting a little bit about the overstepping.
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Post by mysteryuser on Nov 15, 2023 13:29:36 GMT
Really had to think about this one for a bit. There were some parts really niggling at me from your original post, and I couldn't put my finger on why, beyond that I've had my physical boundaries repeatedly violated by men. This is the part that really stood out to me "Through this conversation, he gave me many indications that he was going to leave/end things (by moving my hand away, getting up, gathering his stuff, etc). Eventually after calming down, he said he wants to continue and that I'm wonderful, but a part of him says no, and he is trying to listen to that." Now I wasn't there, so I could be reading it wrong (again thru my experiences) but it feels manipulative. It feels like I didn't get my way so instead of changing the activity I am now going to just leave. And even after saying he wants to continue he says a part of him says no?!? "Then, 5 days later he texts that he feels ambivalent?!" 5 days?! Did he seriously not send you a text for 5 days to apologize? "He also mentioned he misunderstood my cues until it was too late because I did also cuddle/kiss him" This is also cringe to me. consent should not just be implied it should be enthusiastic and can be withdrawn at any time for any reason. "He did say this was an edge case where both of us didn't communicate in the best way and both interpreted the situation to be wildly differently" this feels like victim blaming. You shouldn't have to tiptoe around someone's feelings if you are not feeling comfortable with a situation. I don't think you interpreted it that wrong at all, and he is trying to minimize what happened. I also have to ask, although he apologized. Did he validate that your feelings and boundaries are 100% valid and he understands that you need to take your time? Did he provide any concrete steps on how to prevent this going forward? What exactly does he mean by patience? Is it more him throwing a mini tantrum and disappearing for 5 days when he doesn't like the next boundary that you set? I've been trying to think about what happened as well. From my memory, it was was the following:
Him: I think you're wonderful.. Me: It's okay, I don't need an explanation if you don't want to continue Him: It's not that I don't want to continue, I strangely want to, but there's a part of me saying no and I'm trying to listen to that part Me: That might be for the best, because if someone walks out that way, he is not for me Him: I don't think it's implied that walking out is ending things Me: I think it's pretty implied if it goes like this Him: I'm not trying to play tricks. Take care
To me this was clear, no? And yes, he messaged on the 5th day. He said "it felt wrong not to resolve this", but he was waiting for me to reach out for a few days prior, and realized there was only a window of time in which he could. He said the part of him saying no is the part that thinks I'll never trust him.
--
I agree with the consent thing. He should have understood and backed off even if he felt slightly confused. Or even asked directly - and he mentioned his mistake was not clarifying and asking directly.
"Did he validate that your feelings and boundaries are 100% valid and he understands that you need to take your time?" - I think so, yes. But he emphasizes that he was really hurt then, which is not my problem, because I was hurt too. He seems more bent on being right, and when I met him it seemed to take a lot of energy out of him to say "you're right and I agree with you".
Thankfully I've made clear that defensiveness will not fly with me, and I genuinely don't care to impress him. I still do need to think about things, and I also know people will have different takes on this. I agree that none of this seems promising.
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 15, 2023 14:16:11 GMT
Really had to think about this one for a bit. There were some parts really niggling at me from your original post, and I couldn't put my finger on why, beyond that I've had my physical boundaries repeatedly violated by men. This is the part that really stood out to me "Through this conversation, he gave me many indications that he was going to leave/end things (by moving my hand away, getting up, gathering his stuff, etc). Eventually after calming down, he said he wants to continue and that I'm wonderful, but a part of him says no, and he is trying to listen to that." Now I wasn't there, so I could be reading it wrong (again thru my experiences) but it feels manipulative. It feels like I didn't get my way so instead of changing the activity I am now going to just leave. And even after saying he wants to continue he says a part of him says no?!? "Then, 5 days later he texts that he feels ambivalent?!" 5 days?! Did he seriously not send you a text for 5 days to apologize? "He also mentioned he misunderstood my cues until it was too late because I did also cuddle/kiss him" This is also cringe to me. consent should not just be implied it should be enthusiastic and can be withdrawn at any time for any reason. "He did say this was an edge case where both of us didn't communicate in the best way and both interpreted the situation to be wildly differently" this feels like victim blaming. You shouldn't have to tiptoe around someone's feelings if you are not feeling comfortable with a situation. I don't think you interpreted it that wrong at all, and he is trying to minimize what happened. I also have to ask, although he apologized. Did he validate that your feelings and boundaries are 100% valid and he understands that you need to take your time? Did he provide any concrete steps on how to prevent this going forward? What exactly does he mean by patience? Is it more him throwing a mini tantrum and disappearing for 5 days when he doesn't like the next boundary that you set? I've been trying to think about what happened as well. From my memory, it was was the following:
Him: I think you're wonderful.. Me: It's okay, I don't need an explanation if you don't want to continue Him: It's not that I don't want to continue, I strangely want to, but there's a part of me saying no and I'm trying to listen to that part Me: That might be for the best, because if someone walks out that way, he is not for me Him: I don't think it's implied that walking out is ending things Me: I think it's pretty implied if it goes like this Him: I'm not trying to play tricks. Take care
To me this was clear, no? And yes, he messaged on the 5th day. He said "it felt wrong not to resolve this", but he was waiting for me to reach out for a few days prior, and realized there was only a window of time in which he could. He said the part of him saying no is the part that thinks I'll never trust him.
--
I agree with the consent thing. He should have understood and backed off even if he felt slightly confused. Or even asked directly - and he mentioned his mistake was not clarifying and asking directly.
"Did he validate that your feelings and boundaries are 100% valid and he understands that you need to take your time?" - I think so, yes. But he emphasizes that he was really hurt then, which is not my problem, because I was hurt too. He seems more bent on being right, and when I met him it seemed to take a lot of energy out of him to say "you're right and I agree with you".
Thankfully I've made clear that defensiveness will not fly with me, and I genuinely don't care to impress him. I still do need to think about things, and I also know people will have different takes on this. I agree that none of this seems promising.
What would you get out of a second round with him other than more ambivalence? His ambivalence has nothing to do you with you…it is the conflicting responses he is getting from his nervous system. The guy I dated tried at one point to break up with me…but found my reaction….which was…ok, but just make sure you find someone who respects and loves who you are….different from how others had reacted…..I was calm in that moment and I think that through him off….so I ask…are we still dating and he agreed….and then ramped up things for a brief period of time before returning to his ambivalent state. |
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Post by mysteryuser on Nov 15, 2023 14:51:55 GMT
I think I need to know I'm making my own decision and be sure of the decision, mostly. I know the anxiety can get in the way. I need to learn to make the decision rooted in reality and listening to my gut and intuition rather than the anxiety and/or making the decision out of fear (in either direction).
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Post by mrob on Nov 15, 2023 15:23:52 GMT
I’ve been sitting on this for a while, but I view this a bit differently. The result is the same, but I think the motivation is different.
This is a bloke who made a bad judgement on date 5. By date 5, one generally has an idea of what the other person is like, but he didn’t, and overstepped the mark. There’s not only disappointment and the attendant ego stuff, but the real possibility of ending up on the sex offenders register for an unwanted advance. It’s really that stark.
To come back and talk after five days, I’d say it was really on his mind. I wouldn’t mind saying all the guff in the call was to ameliorate his feelings for having an advance obviously go wrong, rather than a genuine interaction.
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Post by mysteryuser on Nov 15, 2023 15:27:19 GMT
I’ve been sitting on this for a while, but I view this a bit differently. The result is the same, but I think the motivation is different. This is a bloke who made a bad judgement on date 5. By date 5, one generally has an idea of what the other person is like, but he didn’t, and overstepped the mark. There’s not only disappointment and the attendant ego stuff, but the real possibility of ending up on the sex offenders register for an unwanted advance. It’s really that stark. To come back and talk after five days, I’d say it was really on his mind. I wouldn’t mind saying all the guff in the call was to ameliorate his feelings for having an advance obviously go wrong, rather than a genuine interaction. I'm sorry I didn't quite follow, do you mind rephrasing? I didn't catch the gist of it.
He has sent me multiple extremely long messages that have taken me a while to even skim. So apologies for my brain not working well right now lol.
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Post by anne12 on Nov 15, 2023 15:51:51 GMT
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Post by mrob on Nov 15, 2023 16:27:59 GMT
I don’t even think this is an attachment thing, although I certainly have had the experience of being able to spot people’s attachment style within 15 mins.
After date 5, he took a chance and it bombed. He’d have to be feeling not too good about himself. The risk a man takes when making such an advance is serious. Not only would any man worth anything feel awful about having put someone in that position, but an unwanted advance can see a man going to jail and ending up on the sex offenders register, depending on where you live. I wouldn’t be surprised if the contact since has been to get rid of some of the guilt, or even worse, seeing if you’re just playing “hard to get”.
Hope that clears it up.
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