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Post by yasmin on Jan 5, 2018 18:54:26 GMT
It's great that you brought about some positive changes, the forum makes more sense sectioned off in these ways to give space for intention. I am still a little "hmmmm" about the fact that the board descriptions say "avoidants and other similar types like narcissists". I don't think it's very fair to group avoidants together with narcissists! I know a lot of avoidants and a lot of narcissists and I can't see that they are even close to the same thing or even share characteristics.... although others on the forum disagree and it might be possible to easily confuse the two the behaviors .....
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Post by summer on Jan 5, 2018 19:27:17 GMT
It's great that you brought about some positive changes, the forum makes more sense sectioned off in these ways to give space for intention. I am still a little "hmmmm" about the fact that the board descriptions say "avoidants and other similar types like narcissists". I don't think it's very fair to group avoidants together with narcissists! I know a lot of avoidants and a lot of narcissists and I can't see that they are even close to the same thing or even share characteristics.... although others on the forum disagree and it might be possible to easily confuse the two the behaviors ..... Deleted |
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Post by yasmin on Jan 5, 2018 19:42:45 GMT
I'm not sure you can go around saying avoidants lack empathy. Have you read this somewhere? There's a difference between lacking empathy and being able to "shut down" or "walk away" or....well....avoid showing empathy. What someone is feeling isn't always reflected in their behavior.
My own experience is very different. The avoidants I know are very empathetic. The one full blow NPD person in my life that I know seems to have a more needy style of attachment (low self esteem, always needs someone around to impress, cannot be alone and most of all he THRIVES on drama and emotional scenes and gets bored without them). I'm not a scientist but haven't seen any real evidence that supports what you're saying in my own life experience.
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Post by summer on Jan 5, 2018 20:18:08 GMT
I'm not sure you can go around saying avoidants lack empathy. Have you read this somewhere? There's a difference between lacking empathy and being able to "shut down" or "walk away" or....well....avoid showing empathy. What someone is feeling isn't always reflected in their behavior. My own experience is very different. The avoidants I know are very empathetic. The one full blow NPD person in my life that I know seems to have a more needy style of attachment (low self esteem, always needs someone around to impress, cannot be alone and most of all he THRIVES on drama and emotional scenes and gets bored without them). I'm not a scientist but haven't seen any real evidence that supports what you're saying in my own life experience. Deleted |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 20:27:58 GMT
the discussion got off topic of my personal boundaries but I appreciate the ability to remove my postings and leave it be.
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Post by yasmin on Jan 5, 2018 20:50:31 GMT
Maybe they just happen to be narcissists though. Narcissism is definitely passed on through families and is also very common of course. There probably IS an overlap given that narcissistic parents are likely to produce narcissistic children (as is traumatic childhood experience) and it would probably follow logically that people with attachment disorders in general come from painful childhoods of some sort, but I'd guess that there's plenty of avoidants who are NOT remotely narcissistic and don't experience a lack of empathy in any way so grouping them together is unhelpful and demonises the avoidant (again). Narcissists (while probably also not guilty of their own personality development) are some of the most toxic and destructive individuals. Avoidants are just people who find it hard to form attachments in a secure way - the same as APs.
The feedback I have had from the more severe avoidants in my life is that they feel absolutely terrible that someone else is suffering, but they are also suffering themselves. It's two sides of the same coin.
I am sorry if you have a lot of that in your life - it's horrible - dealing with a narcissist is extremely traumatic. Just an observation though - you're showing a little lack of empathy yourself right now by posting that DAs lack empathy (broad generalisation) on a thread started about a DA specifically asking not to be spoken to in the exact way you're speaking - just an observation again.
There's a lot of behaviors that are avoidant that could be perceived as narcissistic on the surface (for example seemingly walking away from a crying partner) but which aren't motivated by a lack of care or empathy but by their attachment style. What's definitely true is that there's a whole heap of classic narcissistic behaviors that would be extremely unusual to find in an avoidant...
For example...
Frequent relationships - most avoidants on here have actually said they are mostly alone and take years to find someone to attach to
Desire to be alone / solitude - most narcissists love an audience and an adoring crowd and can't stand being alone
Avoidance of attaching to new people - most narcissists love sucking new people in and spitting them out
Loving drama and creating it - most avoidants seem to get extremely upset by this and narcissists absolutely love it and enjoy provoking drama, if they can get a partner to cry they feel fantastic.
So there's a lot of differences there in the general picture.
I know there's some behaviors from avoidants that do "stack up" as co morbid with narcissism (like coldness, checking out emotionally, not responding to requests for reassurance) but if you're being fair you'll admit there are equally behaviors from APs that also "stack up" as co morbid with narcissism (like needing adoration, like manipulative behavior, like desperation for approval).
No one is here (well hardly anyone) because they are 100% ok and we're mostly all battling some kind of hindered way of loving and feeling safe but demonising anyone with these kind of generalisations is just sooooo unhelpful. As a side note to that, if anyone does TRULY love their avoidant partner then they sure as hell won;t want to demonise them. they'll want to understand and accept.
It's just my opinion, but I think narcissism is a totally different thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 20:51:15 GMT
In my experience, lack of empathy hasn't directly related to attachment style. My very good friend is avoidant, and has healthy empathy. She is one of the few I trust my secrets to as I know she is also fiercely loyal. My bf is secure, but his empathy is lacking in a lot of ways. The 2 Narcs in my life clearly lack empathy.
I think though there is a difference between lack of empathy and the ability to have emotional distance. I would say I have empathy, but I can easily create emotional distance, which has been beneficial for me. It has enabled me to do a lot of volunteer work that may have not been possible for a person that cannot create that distance. I have heard some people say they can't do this or that,because the emotional levity of the situation would engulf them. An example would be, can a surgeon cut someone open because they lack empathy or is it that they can create the needed emotional distance?
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Post by yasmin on Jan 5, 2018 20:51:19 GMT
Sorry it went off track tgat. |
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Post by yasmin on Jan 5, 2018 20:57:04 GMT
In my experience, lack of empathy hasn't directly related to attachment style. My very good friend is avoidant, and has healthy empathy. She is one of the few I trust my secrets to as I know she is also fiercely loyal. My bf is secure, but his empathy is lacking in a lot of ways. The 2 Narcs in my life clearly lack empathy. I think though there is a difference between lack of empathy and the ability to have emotional distance. I would say I have empathy, but I can easily create emotional distance, which has been beneficial for me. It has enabled me to do a lot of volunteer work that may have not been possible for a person that cannot create that distance. I have heard some people say they can't do this or that,because the emotional levity of the situation would engulf them. An example would be, can a surgeon cut someone open because they lack empathy or is it that they can create the needed emotional distance? You clearly have empathy - you show it here in your posts all the time. Your need for emotional distance is your right if it's good for you. You should have freedom to take that and to be with a partner who's happy with that (like you are). Anyone who classifies a need for emotional distance as a lack of empathy basically has no concern for their partner's needs because they're basically saying "give me what I want, even if it's not what you want". To me that's a lack of empathy. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 21:01:47 GMT
It's great that you brought about some positive changes, the forum makes more sense sectioned off in these ways to give space for intention. I am still a little "hmmmm" about the fact that the board descriptions say "avoidants and other similar types like narcissists". I don't think it's very fair to group avoidants together with narcissists! I know a lot of avoidants and a lot of narcissists and I can't see that they are even close to the same thing or even share characteristics.... although others on the forum disagree and it might be possible to easily confuse the two the behaviors ..... I agree. I left off researching narcissism because it just didn't fit. I grew up with one and I knew that what my ex was experiencing is not narcissism. We all can experience narcissistic traits but that doesn't make someone have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Jeb is pretty reasonable. Maybe if you message him he will see into adjusting that description. |
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Post by yasmin on Jan 5, 2018 21:13:55 GMT
Yes we can all have traits, very true. I have traits of a lot of disorders  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 21:19:31 GMT
Yes we can all have traits, very true. I have traits of a lot of disorders GIRL! Me too! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 3:12:56 GMT
Wow...off-topic...but a few things to clarify.
I think lack of empathy would place anyone closer to the NPD end. I believe the DA I know has empathy, but his emotional expression is severely repressed. He tries to help his friends and family financially, so he does feel sympathy for the less fortunate.
I'd also be careful about "definition of empathy". Being critical of someone or something is not the same as demonstrating a lack of empathy for them.
NPDs appear to constantly seek partners and friends but there's a huge difference between seeking someone to use for positive or negative narcissistic supply and seeking someone for connection and attachment.
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