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Post by mariposa1010 on Nov 6, 2015 2:15:41 GMT
Jeb,
I literally just ordered your book "Avoidant" on audible. I can't wait to start listening to it on my morning jogs! I wish I had discovered it sooner. I was recently involved with a man who was younger than me and I suspect he was an avoidant. I'm not exactly which type, either fearful or just dismissive because he never let me reach that deep to find out. I'm a single mom of one son. My late husband died years ago serving in the military. It's interesting because I have always had secure relationships, yet this man made me question myself at every turn.
We recently ended our eight month pseudo relationship. I poured my heart out to this man. Let him in completely and he was well aware. He would run away and detach so he wouldn't get close. It was and is still so heartbreaking to a secure person. Is this normal? Can an avoidant cause a secure individual to lose their mind? I look back on myself like I was a joke to this person the entire time. Do avoidant feel at all? Our last conversation was due to me getting so angry I lashed out. I told him "I didn't know what kind of love he never received and I thought it was garbage to always keep leaving me hanging." He got very angry. To which he had to calm down. I apologize immensely for my harsh words, over and over again. I'm allowed to feel human emotion though. Right? I communicated that it made me so angry and I felt I couldn't get through to him.
Needless to say he messaged me after a weekend of calming down to inform me that he thought it was best if we just remain friends. He then said to trust him, it was better this way, and that he was never going to let me in. I asked why and he said because it isn't conducive to his career goals (he was a workaholic), that he's put people before his career before and it screwed him over. It made me wonder whether or not he is fearful or really dismissive. Can people border both? I feel this man showed fearful-avoidant qualities but I also feel he showed many dismissive-avoidant qualities. I feel as if I may have penetrated his amour and that he was very upset by the hurtful things I said--obviously if we remained intimate it would only take our connection to the next level seeing as we both clearly pushed each others buttons. In the end he wasn't willing to let me in or try.
Can people be fearful and dismissive in their avoidant attachment style an why do these people hurt the secure attachment styled people so badly? I care so much about people. Even when I don't feel romantically linked to them anymore, I still respond, answer, and apologize if I hurt them as it wasn't my intention. This man could not do this. He could not show sympathy or try and empathize. It almost made me turn into an anxious preoccupied person. Does this generally happen?
Cannot wait to listen to this book!
P.S. I know you're not a counselor, ha-ha! I just got so excited
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Post by mariposa1010 on Nov 6, 2015 2:17:45 GMT
*And-- sorry for the typos! My brain thinks faster than I type.
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Post by Jeb Kinnison on Nov 6, 2015 4:27:52 GMT
Yes, the Dismissive commonly drives a Secure nuts with the intermittent reinforcement and lack of positive feeling. You are made to feel much more anxious, less secure, and anger is a sign of your healthy self-esteem. There's usually some mix of fearful and Dismissive, but the sketch here sounds pretty Dismissive -- focus on work, lack of responsiveness, desire to keep control of the distance between you. usually the Fearful types consciously want to be close, and will spiral in up to a point before they get anxious; your guy consciously knows he's avoiding intimacy and pushing you away.
The first time you encounter it, it's hard to believe they can be so cold after seeming to be warm or caring early on. But that's their defense mechanism -- if they cared, they might get hurt. They typically rationalize that you demanded too much of them, they have important goals, etc.
Hope you like the book -- it will help, I suspect.
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
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Post by katy on Nov 6, 2015 4:52:26 GMT
Jeb's books, Web site, and this forum have really helped me to deal with the aftermath of an absolutely charming dismissive, who suddenly flipped into a crazy push / pull mode which went on for about 2 months until I found Jeb's Web site and books. When I protested his very dismissive behavior, I was also dumped after being called emotionally unstable.
I described what happened to me in makemineamac's thread if you want to read the details. I also felt as though I was going totally crazy - I was crying over a person whom I had never even met in person!
The good news is that I'm quickly feeling better. This forum has really helped me to put everything in perspective. I wish the best for you.
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Post by mariposa1010 on Nov 6, 2015 14:47:15 GMT
Katy and Jeb! Thank you so much! I've been going crazy thinking there is something wrong with me but I know I have had nothing but healthy relationships until this one. I stuck around too long because I am secure within myself to know that he liked me but I could not understand his constant need to detach. He knew exactly what he was doing. I would effectively communicate how I didn't like his detaching and didn't understand why it was so easy for him. To which he would not respond to, get uncomfortable with responding or respond by saying he's busy with work and doesn't have a lot of time to devote to me or anyone else because of work. It wasn't until he finally made up his mind to retreat after I protested. He then finally told me he would detach because he didn't want to get close. I wish I would have discovered this book earlier!!! It would have saved me so much pain. Peace, Love & Happiness!!!! Katy, I'm going to read your threads  |
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Post by makemineamac on Nov 10, 2015 23:16:29 GMT
So glad you took action and got away from that, and no, It was HIM, not YOU. Be glad you didn't stick around for 9 years like I did. You want to talk about going crazy? And I was waiting for the payoff, for happiness, for everything. And it was all for naught. I ended up having to call the relationship when she made one last negative, hurtful comment that I just couldn't handle. The constant emasculation and utter disdain she showed me for years finally pushed me far enough. It was after I read one of Jebs' books and Attached, that I finally realized who this person was and why they acted the way they did. If I wasn't as positive as I am, there's no way I would have toughed it out for that long. But I'm confident and just believed things would get better. My Psychologist thinks, correctly I'm pretty sure, that i have my own issues with staying in a bad relationship for so long. She's pointing to an emptiness I must have inside me to allow for this. So I'm going to work on whatever 'that' is. We'll all be ok, but I still cycle between caring for her and not - because of the issues she has - but now knowing there can never be reciprocation of any type from her that is genuine. It's interesting, we all talk about these 'types' as having no feelings. It's not that, it's more complicated than that. I know when we would go to a concert of a band that she loved, she 'felt' the music, and enjoyed herself. But this is only in the low risk situations that aren't intimate. So they do 'feel', they just don't want to compromise their personal space when intimacy is a potential 'threat." I think I've got that right. We are civil right now - we are sharing our dog for now - I really don't want to let her go, but we will see what happens going forward. Hard to say. There's a quote from an article by Stan Tatkin, or it might have pre-existed but it's from one of his articles, but this sums my previous partner up 100%. "I want you in the house, but not in my room... unless I invite you." That's exactly how it was for me. For years. Her terms. Always. Looked at a couple of photos from earlier in the summer this year - she also never wanted me to take her photo after about year 2, I can see in the photo from August that I am clearly an annoyance to her. Sad really. Article is here: www.mishpaha.org.il/kvatzim/pdf/Tatkin-Addiction-to-Alone-Time.pdfI wish you well. |
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Post by lynn on Nov 16, 2015 13:22:55 GMT
I read a lot of people on this forum talk about the symptoms, but has anyone been able to handle or deal with the behavior and communicate so that the relationship doesn't end in disaster? I'm experiencing what everyone else is here - for a year - and it really has tested my soul. But I'm seeking assistance in methods of perhaps working through this - - if that is even possible.
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Post by makemineamac on Nov 17, 2015 2:07:57 GMT
I am seeing a psychologist and have asked her this very question.
The answer of course, is that this person must first recognize the traits they exhibit, and then be willing to do a lot of work to (potentially) resolve them. Her suggestion was that it may even take years. (You're trying to undo damage that occurred in infancy.)
So, it's possible, and some change on their own - 1 out of 4 apparently do change their destructive habits over time, though no-one is sure why.
It's a very risky proposition. I would think long and carefully about it before you put in too much more time. Trust me, I am trying to figure out my own reasons for staying as long as I did.
I wish you well.
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Post by longtermfool on Aug 30, 2016 18:42:20 GMT
Just into my second treatment for depression. I am medicated and doing fine. The first depression was 28 years ago. I felt my spouse had abandon me and left me behind both mentally and physically then. 34 years later, still feel the same, but have realized I am married to a dismissive avoidant and she will never seek any help or ever change. I have always encouraged her to seek some sort of help with her own depression and her distructive views of her own sexuality. Recently ran into articles about attachment theroy and dismissive avoidant: it changed my entire understanding of what has been going on most of my life. I find it a little disturbing for me, going to a psychiatrist for depression the first time (1989) and now the second time, that neither had suggested anything about attachment theroy. For some reason I feel like I was tricked into marriage by that fact she had been a totally different person when we were dating. I am currently working through divorcing her and wish now I would have left 28 years ago. Oh well, I kept waiting for someone to return to me that has never really existed. At this point I would recommend leaving a spouse immediately if they are not willing or able to recognize there is a problem and seek help. My wife still thinks all of our problems lie with me.
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
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Post by katy on Aug 31, 2016 2:37:04 GMT
I'm sorry that you've been through all of this. I think that so many of us feel tricked by assuming that we're with a kind, delightful, charming person until that person flips into somebody who is blaming and hostile. Jeb discusses this phenomenon in one of his books - he talks about avoidants knowing all of the social graces and luring people into relationships that turn out to be really terrible when the avoidants begin to feel threatened.
Also, have you considered if your wife has narcissistic traits? There is lots of information on the Web about narcissistic abuse. Just today, Melanie Tonia Evans, a narcissistic abuse expert, published a very comprehensive article about female narcissists:
blog.melanietoniaevans.com/the-malignant-female-understanding-female-narcissism/
Best wishes,
Katy
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raco
Junior Member
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Post by raco on Aug 31, 2016 3:39:09 GMT
longtermfool, I feel sorry for you. 34 years of a pretend marriage must not have been easy. You made a mistake by staying for such a long time with your wife, and maybe it is related to your own attachment style. It's a shame that psychiatrists were not able to help you. But you finally figured out what has been going on for so long, and I hope you will recover quickly from depression. Avoidants sure can drive us nuts.
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Post by longtermfool on Aug 31, 2016 19:46:03 GMT
Katy and raco, thanks for your comments. I did read the suggested article and my wife does fit some of the narcissistic traits, but am not convinced of full blown narcissism. I guess at this point, it really doesn't matter because she is not willing to look inside her soul and find professional help. She believes there is nothing wrong with her, remember she is a "tough farm girl" and can do everything on her own. After we had met, dated and got married, I didn't feel her emotionally leave the realtionship till our 2nd child (about 2 years into our marriage). At that point I kept asking about having somesort of emotional and physical realtionship. Sex became infrequent and I could tell she was emotionally "void" from any sort of emotional intimacy. She told me back then "people grow and change and I have grown out of that stage". Over the last 34 years she has told me some incredibly hurtful things like: "I hate sex", "I don't think I love you anymore", "I feel raped by you". All of which I just tried to keep my head afloat. We had 2 kids when all of this started and added one more a couple years later. It has been a challenge for me to stay, but I did feel responible to stick around for our children. She did not show her ugly side to anyone but me, so I believe she was a good mother. Currently my youngest is 29 so they are on their own. At this point I feel like I have to leave for my own wellbeing. Again, thanks for your comments.
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
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Post by katy on Aug 31, 2016 20:23:20 GMT
I think that avoidants and narcissists are all on a continuum, so a person can be avoidant, with just some narcissist traits.
Please know that you did a wonderful thing staying for your children. My mother had something very seriously wrong - borderline personality disorder, narcissist, bully, or another mental abnormality. She was horrible to my father and was very erratic and jealous and critical of her children, especially with me, the oldest child.
My father was a kind, decent man who didn't know how to control her, but he stayed, which meant that a sane adult came home to the house every night. I can't imagine what our lives would have been like if he had left and we had been alone with her and she had blamed us children for the shame of being divorced from a man whom she constantly demeaned.
I'm sure your children did pick up on what a difficult person she was. By you being there, there was somebody normal around whom they knew that they could count on for kind treatment. It was truly a gift to them that you were there.
Best wishes in your new life.
Katy
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acho
New Member
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Post by acho on Sept 3, 2016 13:36:00 GMT
Longterm fool, it's uncanny how your story parallels with mine -- dates and all. The details aren't important, but as a (now) secure with a anxious-preoccupied past, I can assure you that it's all about her, not you -- literally. It's hard for our ego to accept -- especially because we're in so deep -- but they're just not that into us. Their preoccupation is with themselves, whether via narcissistic pride, or self-flagellating depression; we're props or tools for their own self aggrandizement. When I realized how dehumanized I was (she helped the process by suddenly demeaning me out of nowhere, and always after periods of shared peace and serenity), it had the ironic effect of helping me de-couple from the pain; if I was in this alone, there was nothing between us that was really lost.
I hope that makes sense.
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Post by longtermfool on Sept 8, 2016 20:41:47 GMT
acho, Thanks for you for your reply. And it does make sense to me. It sounds like you have moved on, how did they handle the divorce? And wonder how that is going for you now?
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