katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147 
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Post by katy on Nov 7, 2015 2:54:19 GMT
I believe that I now have a final confirmation that the avoidant dismissive whom I met last year is unwilling or unable to rationally figure out how we could work out a future connection that would be OK for both of us. Our friendship (now I realize only in my imagination) ended when I complained about the dismissive way that he treated me during the end of the supposed friendship. In response to my complaint, he insulted me and broke off all communication.
Soon after the blow up, I tried to apologize. He blew me off and didn't communicate with me. As I read more and more about avoidant dismissives, I began to realize what I had been dealing with. I started to understand that the delightful, supportive person whom I had interacted with for five and a half months had morphed into a very erratic person who made me cry.
I absolutely hated having everything end with such an acrimonious blow-up. Even if I do have a disagreement with someone (I try to always resolve issues before an argument ensues), I always try to work things out afterward so everybody understands each other better and a solution is worked out that's good for everyone.
As well as my internal programming to work things out for everybody's benefit, on a practical level, I didn't want somebody walking around actively hating me. The avoidant is a long-term dog breeder and he and I have the potential of interacting at a dog show or as part of the online national breed club. The last thing I wanted was for us to meet in public with the current level of hostility.
The other problem was that my husband's and my rescue dog had been part of the happy trio of me, the dog breeder (who was a wonderful mentor helping me to train the dog), and the well-trained dog. Suddenly, the dog breeder hated me and the dog picked up on those very bad vibes. The dog started to whine, cling, and constantly need reassurance. All I could tell the dog was “He doesn't hate you and we'll be OK without him.” That didn't work – the dog was getting more and more depressed.
Finally, after six weeks, I sent the dog breeder a text (because he had told me he hated the phone so much) and told him about how sad the dog was getting. I assumed that he'd be more sympathetic to the dog's plight than worry about me. I again groveled and admitted that I had made mistakes and asked if we could have very limited contact but at least be cordial for the dog's sake. After I sent the text and didn't hear back quickly, I started to feel the same anxiety and insecurity that had gone on for the last months that I dealt with the breeder. I began to wonder if he had blocked me from his phone or had just decided not to answer at all.
After 31 hours, I finally received a text message from him. Definitely not touchy-feely. He said that he felt the dog was not doing well because I was unhappy. Then he said that he wanted to limit our communication to once a week because the last time when he asked for one per day I was not able to keep to that. He then said that he gets so many calls every day that if everyone wanted to talk as much as I did, he would have no time for himself. That's why he has to limit his communication.
I'm not sure what he's talking about. In eight months, we had maybe 10 phone conversations because he said that he hates to talk on the phone. In eight months, we exchanged a total of around 300 text messages. Sometimes we had “text conversations” with three or four messages from each of us. There were definitely not messages every day - sometimes, he would take several days to respond to text messages. I do know that he often told me how busy he was with people calling wanting help with their dogs. I never remember anything about “one per day”, only that once he complained that my text messages were too long.
I'm not sure if his response was his attempt to negotiate a new relationship for us or if he's mixing me up with somebody else whom he also felt was harassing him. I'm wondering if he just imagined that he told me about “one per day” (whatever that means). This is all very confusing.
Anyway, after reading his message, I was relieved that he had at least responded but it felt like many too many eggshells to navigate and that he really didn't want to communicate with me at all. I sent him a message thanking him for responding to me and assuring him that I would only contact him if there were an emergency with the dog. I told him that I would communicate to the dog that his kind influence is still there if we ever need him. I know that I'm not going to change his mind about me, so I groveled and apologized for not understanding that my personality style must have seemed too invasive and annoying to him. I also apologized for only hearing him say that my text messages were too long. Then, I wished him the best and thanked him. Two days later, he hasn't responded to my text.
I still can't believe that the kind, funny, charming person whom I originally contacted has turned into this. I'm not going to contact him because it's very obvious that he doesn't really want to be in touch with me and it's much too painful to deal with him as he now is. This is all very sad but I know that somebody who makes me so anxious and makes me cry is not healthy for me. |
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Post by mariposa1010 on Nov 7, 2015 3:06:49 GMT
Katy, I feel dismissive avoidants tend to be more comfortable sending texts messages. The phone interactions or in person make it harder for them to detach. I could be wrong but I think it's a defense mechanism. I feel so bad for you. It's so painful to have let someone like this in your life. There is nothing wrong with you. You care, you're open and vulnerable. That's healthy!!!!! Focus on your strength xoxo!
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147
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Post by katy on Nov 7, 2015 3:24:24 GMT
Thanks! I'm getting back to normal and now that the situation is clarified, the dog is doing better too.
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Post by Jeb Kinnison on Nov 7, 2015 4:27:16 GMT
You're doing the right thing by staying away. It shouldn't be too hard, since at least he is not in your local community where you can't avoid him -- the occasional dog event shouldn't be too hard, just a polite nod or hello required. He is not who you thought he was -- the charm goes away when he's tired of interacting.
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147
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Post by katy on Nov 9, 2015 17:11:20 GMT
Jeb,
Thanks so much for creating this forum and for your excellent comments. Your last comment gave me so much insight:
“He is not who you thought he was – the charm goes away when he's tired of interacting.”
I suddenly realized that I was assuming that my experience with other people in my life was relevant when I was dealing with an initially charming avoidant dismissive. My experience is that most nice, kind-hearted people are usually pretty nice over the long haul. If these people suddenly become withdrawn and irritable it's because something is wrong. They may not be feeling well, they may be in physical or emotional pain, or they may be extremely stressed and exhausted. When these nice people get back on an even keel, they return to being nice and kind-hearted. And, even during their struggles, kind people may be difficult but they are not trying to wound and demean people who are concerned about them.
Your comment made me realize that the baseline personality of an avoidant dismissive is very different - they are actually withdrawn, irritable, and demeaning people. Basically, they are very difficult people to deal with in daily life. That means that anytime an avoidant dismissive appears to be open and charming, it's because he or she is creating a carefully crafted charming pseudo personality.
As I look back, I realize that I have run into many avoidant dismissives who were not very good at creating convincing, charming pseudo personalities. Those people were easy to spot as “jerks” and I knew instinctively that they were not very nice people and to stay away from them. My problem this time was that I ran into somebody who had a very convincing, charming pseudo personality.
From my life experience, I made the assumption that he was a nice person. Then, when the withdrawal began, he began to tell me that he was exhausted and overwhelmed with too much work. I assumed that when his work slowed down, he'd be back to his charming norm. I see now that there is no charming norm – that was a carefully crafted illusion.
As an aside, I find it very interesting that several of the people on this forum have said that the first withdrawal excuses that they heard were about the avoidant dismissive struggling with being too busy with work. Being busy with work may be, in the avoidant's mind, a very socially acceptable reason for withdrawing from people. Then, when nice, kind people try to be supportive of the overworked avoidant dismissive, the avoidant has to become really cruel and dismissive to effectively get rid of the kind person who has gotten too close. I suspect that avoidants keep escalating their rejecting behaviors until they finally drive the kind person to anger so that the final angry blow-up will take place. After the blow-up, the avoidant can leave in a huff and then be unwilling to work things out.
You discuss this pattern in your books and finally, thanks to your excellent forum, I'm beginning to really understand it. The everyday kind person meets a delightful, charming person (avoidant dismissive). The charming avoidant dismissive suddenly gets very busy with work and then starts getting even more evasive. The kind person tries to be supportive and then starts to get confused and anxious as all of the evasion and dismissive behavior escalates. Finally, the blow-up occurs. The avoidant dismissive moves on to charming the next person, struggling to keep the newly charmed person, in their place, at arm's length. At the same time, the kind person is left reeling and confused and wondering what happened to the charming person whom they originally met. The sad truth is that there never really was a charming person.
I finally internally understand this pattern. I feel much more at peace about what happened to me. Thank you again for your excellent help in figuring all of this out.
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Post by mariposa1010 on Nov 9, 2015 20:00:03 GMT
Katy, It's so hard and sad to feel like a joke to people whom you have cared for. Don't let it stop you from being kind, open and loving towards all people/interactions. Dismissive avoidant individuals are living only half lives. Those who deny their own emotions or those of others are not aware or insightful of how meaningful all of life is--including everyday interactions, and especially connections with others. They choose to stay on the surface. They are unaware of their actions, most likely due to their own wounds they have not dealt with. It's so hard and can be aggravating at times (for me I know this is true) since I want to understand and show more love to these wounded/unaware people. I'm a very nurturing and caring individual. You sound very similar! I had such a hard time with understanding this. I wanted to care for this person so much and understand him (I'm a mom-- I can't help but wonder what kind of love this person never received and I want to show them love) I care too much and it's called LOVE  I'm not ashamed of that. I know my dismissive was choosing not to accept the love/kindness/friendship I had to offer for whatever reason. It's heartbreaking but what helps me is to understand they are not bad people-- just unaware and or wounded. <3 Lots of love! |
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147
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Post by katy on Nov 10, 2015 1:30:39 GMT
Thanks for your kind response. I'm definitely not an expert about avoidants, but I suspect that you definitely weren't a joke. What I believe happened to me, and probably also happened to you, is that I was too kind, too sympathetic, too smart, and too intuitive – I was getting too close to being a real friend. Plus, I wasn't docile. I treat people fairly and expect to be treated well in return. My sense is that avoidants want to call the shots and be in control of relationships and I'm used to mutual decision-making.
I now think that I was dealing with a person who never fully reveals his inner thoughts and feelings. Although he appeared to tell me so much, I actually believe that he lives a very un-revealed life. So, when I got too close, I became too threatening.
At this point, I'm trying to absorb what lessons I can and move beyond this experience. It's extremely sad to accept that the charming person who was so kind and supportive will never be back. But, it's also a relief to be free of all of the anxiety and self-blame that I went though during the push / pull rejection phase.
Best wishes to you. I hope that you continue to heal and find happiness.
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Post by mariposa1010 on Nov 10, 2015 13:50:37 GMT
Same to you!!! XOXOXO!!!!
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Post by Lynn on Nov 16, 2015 15:25:45 GMT
Hello. I am going through the same experiences at this moment with a dismissive. I feel he is a fearful and avoidant dismissive. Have any of you had any luck with different ways to communicate to these types of individuals? When they go into hiding after an intimate time together - how do you communicate with them that this is NOT ok but in a way that they understand and how you can work together to better understand each others needs? Am I naive to think that there is hope?
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147
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Post by katy on Nov 16, 2015 16:44:26 GMT
I'm normally able to negotiate compromises with people, hopefully before an argument even arises. I try to be open and flexible, so that problems can get resolved and everybody feels good about the solution.
My experience with the dismissive avoidant whom I dealt with was very different. At first, for about five months, he was charming and was very friendly with me and with my husband. We thought he was great. As I look back, I can pinpoint when he suddenly began to withdraw. The withdrawal phase was a push / pull where he appeared to still be somewhat friendly but there was always a slight tone of being demeaning. The withdrawal was all couched in being busy with work.
The demeaning behavior kept escalating until I finally got angry and told him I wouldn't bother him any more. We were in the middle of publishing an article and a few days later I tried to apologize and he was very nasty to me and never even responded to my formal letter of apology.
I was highly distressed that his last words were so angry. I tried once more to reach a point of civility with him and to reconcile our differences. He did respond but told me he could only tolerate contact from me once a week because he had so many important people to talk with. I thanked him and told him that I was grateful that I could contact him in an emergency. The article has remained unpublished.
As I look back, I think he was trying to get rid of me for several months and I was too uneducated about dismissive avoidants to understand what was going on. I thought that people who were nice and kind remained nice and kind. I assumed that when he said that he was busy with work, he was busy for a while and that everything would go back to normal. I had no idea that somebody who had been so great could suddenly flip into a such an ice cold person.
My personal experience and what I've read tells me that once the charming pseudo-personality disappears, it's not coming back. Once the flip occurs, you're going to be given crumbs of attention, on their schedule, until you get angry and leave. If you don't leave, you'll have to become a passive doormat accepting demeaning treatment. Until I figured out what was going on, I was receiving demeaning crumbs and I found it very psychologically distressing - I became very anxious and even cried several times.
It took me a long time to really understand that the delightful person will not/cannot come back and that you are going to be stuck with demeaning crumbs for however long you decide to stay. That was an extremely sad realization for me. It felt as though the great person I had originally known had died - I could not believe that he wouldn't just get through his busy spell at work and forgive me and everything would return to normal. It has taken several months to really get clarity on what happened.
Bottom line, my sense is that dismissive avoidants are not interested in or capable of working out relationship compromises so that everybody feels good about the situation.
Best of luck to you.
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Post by mrcamper on Apr 1, 2016 4:10:27 GMT
Jeb, Thanks so much for creating this forum and for your excellent comments. Your last comment gave me so much insight: “He is not who you thought he was – the charm goes away when he's tired of interacting.” I suddenly realized that I was assuming that my experience with other people in my life was relevant when I was dealing with an initially charming avoidant dismissive. My experience is that most nice, kind-hearted people are usually pretty nice over the long haul. If these people suddenly become withdrawn and irritable it's because something is wrong. They may not be feeling well, they may be in physical or emotional pain, or they may be extremely stressed and exhausted. When these nice people get back on an even keel, they return to being nice and kind-hearted. And, even during their struggles, kind people may be difficult but they are not trying to wound and demean people who are concerned about them. Your comment made me realize that the baseline personality of an avoidant dismissive is very different - they are actually withdrawn, irritable, and demeaning people. Basically, they are very difficult people to deal with in daily life. That means that anytime an avoidant dismissive appears to be open and charming, it's because he or she is creating a carefully crafted charming pseudo personality. As I look back, I realize that I have run into many avoidant dismissives who were not very good at creating convincing, charming pseudo personalities. Those people were easy to spot as “jerks” and I knew instinctively that they were not very nice people and to stay away from them. My problem this time was that I ran into somebody who had a very convincing, charming pseudo personality. From my life experience, I made the assumption that he was a nice person. Then, when the withdrawal began, he began to tell me that he was exhausted and overwhelmed with too much work. I assumed that when his work slowed down, he'd be back to his charming norm. I see now that there is no charming norm – that was a carefully crafted illusion. As an aside, I find it very interesting that several of the people on this forum have said that the first withdrawal excuses that they heard were about the avoidant dismissive struggling with being too busy with work. Being busy with work may be, in the avoidant's mind, a very socially acceptable reason for withdrawing from people. Then, when nice, kind people try to be supportive of the overworked avoidant dismissive, the avoidant has to become really cruel and dismissive to effectively get rid of the kind person who has gotten too close. I suspect that avoidants keep escalating their rejecting behaviors until they finally drive the kind person to anger so that the final angry blow-up will take place. After the blow-up, the avoidant can leave in a huff and then be unwilling to work things out. You discuss this pattern in your books and finally, thanks to your excellent forum, I'm beginning to really understand it. The everyday kind person meets a delightful, charming person (avoidant dismissive). The charming avoidant dismissive suddenly gets very busy with work and then starts getting even more evasive. The kind person tries to be supportive and then starts to get confused and anxious as all of the evasion and dismissive behavior escalates. Finally, the blow-up occurs. The avoidant dismissive moves on to charming the next person, struggling to keep the newly charmed person, in their place, at arm's length. At the same time, the kind person is left reeling and confused and wondering what happened to the charming person whom they originally met. The sad truth is that there never really was a charming person. I finally internally understand this pattern. I feel much more at peace about what happened to me. Thank you again for your excellent help in figuring all of this out. ******************************************************************************************************************************* katy, I've seen this exact thing. What you describe nails it! The charm and everything is actually really great. Then the busy with work thing. then you ask and ask, and you 'think' about them and what they are going through and need. You're nice, helpful, thoughtful. The more you do for them, the less you get. They're like a construct of rules. The operate from these carefully crafted rules and it's like there's not a person with a real heart there. The power play of it.....the push pull. You finally get a close intimate moment (tv, laying down together, a close talk...) and you're feeling great! The next 3 days you're left very alone as they run to the hills. The worst thing is where you come to realize, that in the Dismissive Avoidant's perception: YOU ARE BUGGING THE S%*T OUT OF THEM and they really really just want you to Leave Them Alone. |
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Post by mailuma94 on Jun 22, 2016 15:29:15 GMT
I'm laying down my practical issues with my avoidant partner here below:
In my experiences, my partner believes "he it right and others are wrong "
Experiences as such and such:
* Don't disagree with him
* Silent treatment:
Is he giving this because he dislikes little things about you
Is he giving this because he want you to apologize because you've pointed out something wrong about him in your previous or any of the past conversations that he secretly loathes. (of course he won't share his mind)
Approach to Start (try) the life towards possible recovery:
* begin from friendship as they value friendship a lot
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147
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Post by katy on Jun 24, 2016 2:48:53 GMT
Your description of your husband:
* Don't disagree with him
* Silent treatment
Makes him sound like a very unpleasant, unkind person to try to live with. He sounds very controlling by not tolerating any discussion or disagreement and using the silent treatment to control people is considered to be abusive.
He's probably avoidant and most likely a narcissist. If he is a narcissist, you are the victim of narcissistic abuse and it's very natural that you will try to reform the narcissist to make the relationship work. Narcissists cannot be fixed and don't care about what makes you feel good, they want total obedience from everybody in their lives. Here are several good Web sites about narcissistic abuse which might help to give you some clarity about what you are experiencing and how to leave the abuse to rebuild your life:
Melanie Tonia Evans
www.melanietoniaevans.com/
This narcissistic abuse expert has free videos, free e-books, and excellent blog articles.
Kim Saeed
letmereach.com/
This expert has an excellent blog.
Savannah Grey
esteemology.com/
Again, an excellent blog with many great articles.
Dave Orrison
graceformyheart.wordpress.com/
Dave Orrison is a pastor who publishes a weekly, very common-sense blog about dealing with narcissists.
I hope you will come to understand that you cannot fix a person who is not open to communicating with you. I hope some of the resources which I have listed will give you insight so that you will be able to move away from a person who is emotionally abusing you and go on to be able to rebuild your life.
Best wishes,
Katy
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I'm not ashamed of that. I know my dismissive was choosing not to accept the love/kindness/friendship I had to offer for whatever reason. It's heartbreaking but what helps me is to understand they are not bad people-- just unaware and or wounded.