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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 21:55:35 GMT
WarriorGirl- yes!
AP and DA both avoid the train by looking at the tree and get hit by the train.
the train is a different train. But all the trains carry baggage.
The AP looks at the DA Tree to ignore the train.
The DA probably just looks at an actual tree lol. Pretty tree.
But the train hits, people feel pain.
nobody escapes it.
Also: Most AP judge a DA by a DA reaction to the relationship.
Truly, the relationship is not experienced as the be-all-end-all for the DA so they won't feel the same pain as the AP.
it's a relationship. that's not our golden key.
But that says nothing about other pain. DA hav plenty of pain that has nothing to do with an AP partner.
that's the truth.
there are lots of other facets to life that have the focus and attention of the DA. there is pain all around.
and we have childhoods we don't remember that good. until we do.
holy crap look out then. that's pain and if an AP partner reminds us of it even unconsciously we want to leave to stop it.
See, different ways of dealing with pain.
AP put a disproportionate amount of focus and emphasis on the relationship and feel a disproportionate amount of pain.
It's all apples and oranges--- but all fruit and all rotten sometimes.
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Post by goldilocks on Jul 31, 2018 21:59:05 GMT
DA is not some glamourous fictional idealized cool chick/ cool guy.
DA man or woman is a real human being; who sweats, who bleeds, who feels pain.
Some of us cry, some of us cant, but hurt perhaps worse that those who do.
Tears that are there but frozen offer a different kind of pain without release.
We feel scared when we lose a job or home, we feel angry when treated with injustice, we feel sad when a dear friend dies. We can also feel anxiety, for example when awaiting a diagnosis.
We do not expect relationships and partners to soothe our pain and scaffold our ego.
Some of us soothe in unhealthy ways; like drink or substance, others work, shop or eat to excess or distraction. Some of us, with great discipline and bravery face our feelings and soothe with self care. Many have a mix of patterns and do their best.
Today I actually felt sad and lonely, yet also felt no desire to log into the dating site. It is just that time of the month, I have slept poorly and I know it will pass.
I did some self care and went to see some friends even though I would have loved to crawl into bed after some wine and snacks. I know sleep, social interaction and enjoyable solitude will actually nourish me.
So I try to made towards those.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 22:07:31 GMT
notalone i would like to extend my hand to you in comradeship, thank you for receiving my reply thebway you did. i'm sorry if i was hurtful, not my intention. I'm extending my hand right back at you juniper . i think this has turned into a good thread and i get where you were coming from in the original post. i do admire and acknowledge your work and contributions here and i think we can continue to be supportive and open, i find this discussion to be breaking down barriers in me and opening a dialog that helps me, i hope any pain caused by it for anyone can lead to new understanding. 🌸 |
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 31, 2018 22:12:25 GMT
It has been an interesting read...and it does shed light on some of the differences between how pain is experienced between the different attachment styles. It also sheds light on why it is challenging for different attachment styles to come together in relationship with each other...we see pain through our own lens and do not always know how to understand the pain experienced in someone else or how to support and see that other person as different.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 22:25:03 GMT
Wow, this has stopped me in my tracks.
Apologies, truly, in advance if I say anything to cause an upset - I feel that I must, however, express myself.
If what I write is out of line for anybody, I am truly sorry - I just have had a revelation in terms of moving forward.
What I now actually realise is (and processing the recent bad trigger makes this clear now):
I've actually become more FA - not intentionally, just to cope because the feelings were just too much.
FA IS actually easier to deal with.
Sorry, but this is the truth.
As an AP, the feelings invade every fibre of your being, to the point that your life is affected.
As an FA - you can deal with life in a much more controlled and contained way.
So it IS easier. Being FA is terribly painful in a different way - but it is easier.
And the reason I am becoming more FA is because I am learning to 'contain' my feelings more (even if that's stuffing them into an overfilled box and squashing the lid down). It is, for me, turning off my feelings for the other - when before they were extreme. This is not something I was able to even understand, let alone accomplish, before. It is sort of changing the profile of that person in your head, and that then changes the feelings. They're still there, but different.
(I am separately doing 'contained' emotional release techniques release some of that stuff, plus have started other creative things to express me)
I didn't do this switch intentionally, it happened because of processing and coping - and, effectively, distancing.
I get it now.
I have different coping methods for different relationships.
I know I have a huge capacity to deal with things - this has been validated by more than one - but I have also experienced an usually extreme amount of bad stuff (also validated).
This really is a revelation for me - and a way forward.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 22:37:06 GMT
WarriorGirl- yes! AP and DA both avoid the train by looking at the tree and get hit by the train. the train is a different train. But all the trains carry baggage. The AP looks at the DA Tree to ignore the train. The DA probably just looks at an actual tree lol. Pretty tree. But the train hits, people feel pain. nobody escapes it. Also: Most AP judge a DA by a DA reaction to the relationship. Truly, the relationship is not experienced as the be-all-end-all for the DA so they won't feel the same pain as the AP. it's a relationship. that's not our golden key. But that says nothing about other pain. DA hav plenty of pain that has nothing to do with an AP partner. that's the truth. there are lots of other facets to life that have the focus and attention of the DA. there is pain all around. and we have childhoods we don't remember that good. until we do. holy crap look out then. that's pain and if an AP partner reminds us of it even unconsciously we want to leave to stop it. See, different ways of dealing with pain. AP put a disproportionate amount of focus and emphasis on the relationship and feel a disproportionate amount of pain. It's all apples and oranges--- but all fruit and all rotten sometimes. juniper - what is an example of a DA's golden key? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 23:37:32 GMT
Jut found this link (I was actually looking for something else): Attachment Anxiety is Linked to Alterations in Cortisol Production and Cellular Immunity "A study showed that recently divorced women had fewer numbers of a variety of T-cells compared to married women. Even in a relatively stable relationship like a marriage, those with higher attachment anxiety also show decreased levels of immune-boosting cells and increased cortisol. So on top of increasing our stress levels, relationship anxiety can also affect our own body’s immunity against disease and infection. On the flipside, think of the positive effects that reducing relationship anxiety could have on our immunity and hormonal balance!" www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3816388/ |
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Post by brokenbiscuit on Jul 31, 2018 23:47:59 GMT
Wow, this has stopped me in my tracks. Apologies, truly, in advance if I say anything to cause an upset - I feel that I must, however, express myself. If what I write is out of line for anybody, I am truly sorry - I just have had a revelation in terms of moving forward. What I now actually realise is (and processing the recent bad trigger makes this clear now): I've actually become more FA - not intentionally, just to cope because the feelings were just too much. FA IS actually easier to deal with. Sorry, but this is the truth. As an AP, the feelings invade every fibre of your being, to the point that your life is affected. As an FA - you can deal with life in a much more controlled and contained way. So it IS easier. Being FA is terribly painful in a different way - but it is easier. And the reason I am becoming more FA is because I am learning to 'contain' my feelings more (even if that's stuffing them into an overfilled box and squashing the lid down). It is, for me, turning off my feelings for the other - when before they were extreme. This is not something I was able to even understand, let alone accomplish, before. It is sort of changing the profile of that person in your head, and that then changes the feelings. They're still there, but different. (I am separately doing 'contained' emotional release techniques release some of that stuff, plus have started other creative things to express me) I didn't do this switch intentionally, it happened because of processing and coping - and, effectively, distancing. I get it now. I have different coping methods for different relationships. I know I have a huge capacity to deal with things - this has been validated by more than one - but I have also experienced an usually extreme amount of bad stuff (also validated). This really is a revelation for me - and a way forward. Not sure Fearful Avoidants types hide their emotions. I don't anyway, I properly howl at the moon when I'm in love related distress, it's a right old sight.😁 Last time it happened my wolf dog picked up on my mood and started howling with me and the neighbours started banging on the door lol. What a mess. And all my own doing too. Time for more therapy! |
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Post by leavethelighton on Aug 1, 2018 0:15:11 GMT
Some part of me is so jealous of the dismissive avoidant attachment style. It seems like a good thing to have positive self esteem and avoid getting hurt by staying detached. Am I wrong? My AP self can't stop craving to be avoidant! I know comparing isn't healthy but this won't get out of my head!
It's natural to want to be in less pain, but I've had relations where I'm mostly AP and different ones where I'm mostly DA, and it is easier to be DA but neither is that great. Ultimately you're either getting hurt or hurting someone else. Of course the thing to really want is to find your way out of either pattern of feelings/thoughts/behaviors.
It's interesting here how some people here see AP and DA as just opposite sides of the same coin. I'll use the metaphor I've used before-- neither is worth the price. Keep doing the work to try to move away from being either one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 1:57:22 GMT
what you want is to regulate your feelings. you want to eliminate the source of them. the source of them is lies. the source of them is also an activated nervous system. so truth and nervous system training is the answer. juniper - Can you share (or direct me to somewhere you already shared) some of the nervous system trainings that worked for you? Is somatic therapy one?
I trained my nervous system through breath meditation, I first learned in college psychology how to get into the parasympathetic state by influencing the autonomic state with breath and imagery. Unfortunately i suffered a number of terrible things that caused me to develop PTSD subsequent to that. I became acquainted with the practice of Anapanasati breath meditation in more recent years and used that to address severe debilitating PTSD. I outlined a bit of that in WarriorGirls thread in the FA support forum requesting help, I did not have any experience or knowledge about nervous system training other than that. I have read a lot of anne12 posts about strategies to work with the nervous system and believe they would have been successful for me. Coming home to my breath and body had helped me to access my feelings and emotions, which i previously was unable to really identify and define other than a block of pain. i have read that DA can experience their feelings in a visceral way , just in their bodies, instead of as emotions that are named and identified and that was very true for me. Getting past fight/fligh/freeze and into loving awareness of feelings and thoughts is nervous system work, and enables me to get insight into habitual thoughts-feelings-reactions. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 3:00:54 GMT
WarriorGirl- yes! AP and DA both avoid the train by looking at the tree and get hit by the train. the train is a different train. But all the trains carry baggage. The AP looks at the DA Tree to ignore the train. The DA probably just looks at an actual tree lol. Pretty tree. But the train hits, people feel pain. nobody escapes it. Also: Most AP judge a DA by a DA reaction to the relationship. Truly, the relationship is not experienced as the be-all-end-all for the DA so they won't feel the same pain as the AP. it's a relationship. that's not our golden key. But that says nothing about other pain. DA hav plenty of pain that has nothing to do with an AP partner. that's the truth. there are lots of other facets to life that have the focus and attention of the DA. there is pain all around. and we have childhoods we don't remember that good. until we do. holy crap look out then. that's pain and if an AP partner reminds us of it even unconsciously we want to leave to stop it. See, different ways of dealing with pain. AP put a disproportionate amount of focus and emphasis on the relationship and feel a disproportionate amount of pain. It's all apples and oranges--- but all fruit and all rotten sometimes. juniper - what is an example of a DA's golden key?I can only speak to my golden keys. These are some things that i remember being important to me since i was young. These are some things that i pondered and searched out. These are things i find rewarding, that add meaning to my life. These are things i prioritize over romantic relationships. Creativity. making things. Finding out - do i have a talent? what is it? what do i add to the world? why am i here? (It turns out that i have a gift for expressing through art. I received no training in this and so taught myself and developed this in solitude much to the dissatisfaction of partners who wanted my attention. My art resonates and inspires people to a degree that is rewarding an meaningful; and i make money with it as a perk. it's been a significant part of my process of coming to authenticity ) Philosophical questions. Meaning of life? Is there a God? If not, what is there? ( i have answered this to my satisfaction and now my spiritual practice is of much importance) Animals, nature- i felt at home with them, and nature is still a good companion because i feel at ease and learn about myself and the mysteries of life there. I have a deep interest in developing skills. Physical skills, mental skills, whatever. find something i can't do that i want to do and then work at it till i can do it. Anything having to do with independence. This encompasses a lot as much is required to live independently. ( i have worked toward interdependence emotionally but enjoy practical self sufficiency. Am successfully self employed and it required persistence and dedication to accomplish that. Obviously it's an ongoing pursuit to maintain it). So many golden keys, so little time. And yet, another golden key is quiet solitude. that's one of the big ones also that i never lack time for- i make the time because it's essential for my wellbeing. |
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Post by goldilocks on Aug 1, 2018 6:47:48 GMT
Creativity is one of my golden keys too :-)
Travel, exploring the world or even the local area is another one for me.
Knowledge, exploring a topic intellectually.
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Post by ocarina on Aug 1, 2018 7:34:27 GMT
Golden keys - strange we have such similarities here.
I have a full on high powered job, - but a side creative one making and selling art - like Juniper totally self taught but enables me to let go into the moment and another self employed journalism, writing about my main career area which keeps me up to date with research and makes career 1 more rewarding as a result. I love it all - having such different areas of expression and expertise..
Moving my body - skiing, swimming, running, yoga - all as important as breathing to me. Meditation too.
Living simply - cultivating an authentic if unconventional life. Food - ethically sourced and delicious.
Music - a big part of my childhood and refound more recently - has been a gateway to my neglected emotional life
I do feel a deep need for intimate connection which I have struggled with over the years - I cannot tolerate the kind of happy ever after togetherness of the movies, but I would love a life long closeness are vulnerable relatedness. At the moment this is growing with friends and my children. Maybe one day a partner will fill this space - but the other things I have mentioned above are part of me too - and I simply cannot let go of these in order to give space for an all encompassing relationship. I would wither and die.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 12:16:45 GMT
Creativity is one of my golden keys too :-) Travel, exploring the world or even the local area is another one for me. Knowledge, exploring a topic intellectually. ❤️❤️❤️ i admire these about you! i forgot knowledge- i always have something i am exploring, i have a big curiosity about how everything in this world is woven together. i have not done this in a while but i like to purchase video lectures that break down topics that are complex, like physics or astronomy- or i have studied obscure language. i am intelligent but not necessarily cerebral and have a thirst for knowledge. i have run out of time but that's because i cut back on busy- and make more time for just relaxing with friends. i am not studying anything but philosophy right now and i am content. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 12:41:37 GMT
Golden keys - strange we have such similarities here. I have a full on high powered job, - but a side creative one making and selling art - like Juniper totally self taught but enables me to let go into the moment and another self employed journalism, writing about my main career area which keeps me up to date with research and makes career 1 more rewarding as a result. I love it all - having such different areas of expression and expertise.. Moving my body - skiing, swimming, running, yoga - all as important as breathing to me. Meditation too. Living simply - cultivating an authentic if unconventional life. Food - ethically sourced and delicious. Music - a big part of my childhood and refound more recently - has been a gateway to my neglected emotional life I do feel a deep need for intimate connection which I have struggled with over the years - I cannot tolerate the kind of happy ever after togetherness of the movies, but I would love a life long closeness are vulnerable relatedness. At the moment this is growing with friends and my children. Maybe one day a partner will fill this space - but the other things I have mentioned above are part of me too - and I simply cannot let go of these in order to give space for an all encompassing relationship. I would wither and die. quite a lot of similarity!!! i also forgot physicality, i am strong and physically fit and i engage in that religiously, it has served me well and is a great way for me to socialize. i am very healthy and my body is my sanctuary. As far as withering, dying. my twin brother is dismissive also, and we took vastly different paths.  i was self medicating and full blown dangerous-to-myself alcoholic by my early twenties. I got sober and started counseling (that wasn't helpful for years so i quit and tried on and off because i was too locked up inside- also knew nothing about attachment theory). I used self help methods to stay sober and heal over the last couple decades. i went one layer deeper, one layer deeper through all my continuing trauma to get to where i am today, with all my favorite pursuits, clean and sober for 25 years now and at peace. I am so thankful. My twin never stopped drinking, and married and stayed married to an end of spectrum AP. It's been a slow moving train wreck with continuous carnage for about 25 years. A nightmare. We have grown apart , far far apart. He didn't go deep, he just buried himself. He gave up everything, and i remember once sitting at his house and he was watching a movie holding hands with his wife to have his wife time and she was freaking out accusing him of lusting over the woman in a nude scene. She has always been insecure, tho she is attractive on the outside. Obviously it's been hell for her to not feel good enough- but she's projected all that insecurity into accusations and control of her spouse. i didn't know about the AP/DA dance until the past couple years, but they have danced it to death all these years. I couldn't stay friends with his wife because it made me scream inside to walk into their house and see nothing of my brother. I am aware that he made his own choices, all of them. He could have left her, wish he would have. He could have gotten sober, and begin to feel good eventually instead of just bad bad bad, instead of just burying himself. I don't hold her responsible for what he did or didn't do- but i do see how that dynamic was poison. He gave up guitar. his friends, everything about himself that wasn't work and family. And was assailed constantly about not being a good enough husband while he was providing everything for a wife that didn't work outside the home so she could take care of children (which i totally support- but now the children are grown and gone and she literally says her job is RELATIONSHIPS with other women..her fellowship with her church.... i'm not kidding, her relationships and fellowship are so important for her emotional well being she excuses herself from a paying vocation. i'm serious. ) He got sober in the last couple of years. We had a deep conversation recently around the death of our mother, we hadn't spoken like that in over 25 years. Heart to heart. We talked about our lives, where we had been, where we are now. He is starting to go into his layers, i am so grateful. This is something I always longed for , for my twin. I have suppressed myself from sharing my feelings about his wife, his marriage, the dynamic, and the slow suicide i've watched. I have wished he would just leave and get healthy and happy, no matter now long it takes, i wanted to watch him blossom instead of wither. I felt fiercely protective of him at times as i witnessed his restriction in that dynamic, and i bit my tongue. I finally let it all out, it was an impassioned conversation! I went off , but it was in support of him and his autonomy that he abandoned. I was unfiltered, and it was good for both of us. I think he was touched, i don't think he ever in all these years has been validated, only vilified. It was good for us to connect that way because it was genuine and about self love, self respect, self actualization, authenticity. And, i encouraged him to cut himself free from that woman and go find out who he really is. I wasn't telling him what to do, just expressing a deep desire for him to take care of himself, finally. I have given up any notion that i have to impinge myself in these things for a partner. I have tried in the past and won't again. That's why i enjoy a healing dismissive partner immensely- they have their golden keys too ❤️and there is only encouragement, not impingement. Having similar instead of vastly different values creates a space for people to truly be who they are! ❤️❤️❤️ |
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