jess92
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Post by jess92 on Aug 23, 2018 11:52:04 GMT
I wonder if the following resonates for anyone of any attachment style? People with AP tendencies, as we know, can have a hard time accepting that a relationship is really over and can tenaciously hold onto hope for a reunion. Does having some (perhaps superficial or selective) knowledge of attachment theory sometimes reinforce APs' stuckness in moving on in cases where attachment dynamics played a role in the breakup? Does it feed into mindreading? Especially in cases where the ex displayed avoidant tendencies? I'll explain what I mean with reference to my own situation. My ex broke up with me very suddenly after we engaged in a long-overdue frank conversation about our needs (my need for consistent communication and turn-taking in initiating contact, her need for space, rest and a gentler pace - and I could tell it was intensely anxiety-provoking for her). Two years later, I still haven't let go of the idea that she didn't "really" want to break up with me, that her attachment issues made her do it. So I've created this false separation in my mind between her and her attachment issues, as if attachment issues aren't part and parcel of who we are as human beings. She never really explained the breakup in a way that felt logical to me, so I've been (mis)applying attachment theory to try to make sense of it. And my understanding of DA feeds my belief that she might have acted based on her triggers and not based on a lack of feelings for me. I totally get that even if that's true, it doesn't necessarily mean we can meet each other's needs. Folks on the boards have been helpful in suggesting various possible paths out of my stuckness with this ex (who's always in my orbit as a friend now - at some distance but remarkably consistent in keeping in touch). I'm still figuring out what to do and want to make the wisest possible use of my understanding of attachment. Also I'm just curious about whether any other APs have found that info about attachment can be easily misdirected into analyzing, obsessing, etc, and what you do to keep your participation on the boards constructive, if so. YES. But I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that even if it is true that your ex acted based on her triggers as opposed to not having feelings, it doesn't mean you can meet each other's needs. While it's easy for me to obsess over whether or not I am just obsessing over attachment theory, instead I am trying to realize that, attachment issues or not, my ex is simply not in a place where he feels I am the right person for him and there is no rational indication that he will be in the foreseeable future, and that is all that really matters. Love isn't logical, so why does it mean anything if the breakup wasn't explained in a logical way? My ex told me that his decision to break up with me was not logical and very hard to explain, as it was just based on a feeling. That feeling is real, and so far it has lasted, even if it may have been a feeling born of avoidance. I think that we can often overlook the possibility that with an avoidant person, even when they may be rejecting you out of fear of closeness or whatever, it may be completely unconscious and they may straight up lose their feelings for you or feel like they never had any. It would be easy for me to imagine my FA ex knew he was acting against his feelings for me and sabotaging things out of fear, but having had further discussion with him and talked to a psychologist a bit I do not think that was the case, and I don't think it is generally the case. The psychologist said to me that when someone's avoidant tendencies are triggered they can often be completely unaware that that is what is going on and they just feel strongly "I don't want to be with this person!" If someone doesn't want to be with you it doesn't matter much why. I, an AP, have left people I was still totally in love with because I wasn't happy. Also, APs can be triggered and have no self-insight as to why we are feeling what we are feeling too, it's not specific to FAs/DAs, it's just that we probably won't leave someone over the feelings that are triggered, we'll do other things (like cling or push). Attachment theory is helpful for me to reconcile my perception that my ex did share my feelings with the mystery and pain of being suddenly dumped. It's nice to be able to have compassion for him and believe that he is a good person who was not doing anything deliberately misleading. It's nicer than thinking he never had any feelings for me and just acted like he did. How to get unstuck, now that's something I still need to figure out right now too. Deep down, do you really want to be unstuck? Did you feel just as stuck during the whole time you were apart, or did you just re-fixate on her when you became friends? Really well said happyidiot and your post, andy does resonate with me too. It's like you're almost willing your ex to share the same drive to understand attachment styles as we do in the hope that it will eventually mean the attachment style won't affect the relationship the way it has already. I'm not sure if this is an 'AP thing' or just a certain type of person 'thing', but sometimes I feel it too. When I'm feeling more 'secure' I guess, or at least a little more level headed and sensible (definitely not triggered) I am aware that just as we as APs can't always understand when we are triggered, and it's not as simple as just thinking "Well this isn't rational, I'll stop clinging/crying/being needy", perhaps an avoidant can't just resolve to "I'm only pushing because I'm scared, I'll stop pushing now". I wrote myself a list recently of all of the times that I can recall acting in a way that I am sure was AP behaviour and I can't recall thinking at the time that I was being unreasonable, that's not to say that hysterically crying feels good at the time, but it certainly doesn't feel like there's any other way to deal with it when I'm right in the thick of it. So I can assume that when an FA or DA is triggered, they're also acting in the only way they know how. I think I'm in the same boat as you andy, granted you're two years further on than me (my break-up is very fresh), but the suddenness of the break-up makes it very hard, right? Like happyidiot has said, to the avoidant that is doing the dumping, it just seems like the right thing to do for them, even if they can't explain why. My ex certainly couldn't, he just said 'something was missing' even though he acknowledged that we had it 'all' for the majority of the relationship and we really were in love. He couldn't put his finger on what was missing, but to him I'm sure it's felt like this overwhelming need to just get out of the relationship. Again, like you, I suspect we will continue to cross paths as he's a family friend and we now share the same friends so actually, I would probably be better placed taking advice from you as to how the friendship dynamic works for you?  I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that wonders whether things could change in the future i.e me work through my historic issues, and for my ex to take an interest in attachment styles and do the same but I think what we (you and I) both should remind ourselves is that we can't change someone else. Yes we can introduce people to attachment styles but it's our own journey (and their own, if they wish), and as much as we can imagine and convince ourselves that but for our attachment styles, we wouldn't have found ourselves separated from our respective partners, it's happened. It might sound somewhat 'airy fairy' but what will be, will be. What we can do, is concentrate on improving our own security and believe that we can align ourselves to not only offer more 'security' to a future (or ex ) partner but be in a position to desire and accept more security for ourselves. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 11:53:19 GMT
Could this also be an AP/DA difference playing out on the forum? I know many AP in relationship say or do things to help the partner feel a certain way, and may expect it of others. DA on the other hand are not focussed on regulating the emotions of a partner in most situations and do not expect others to. Interesting confirmation of my suspicions ... Don't ask a DA (not an FA) if your bum looks big in this, then... ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer im just messing with you- i know you've had a horrible experience with someone, but no need to troll the DA women on this site who are consistently offering support to others of all styles. by the way, it's a shallow question about your bum, and a rather needy one- but my partner and i take good care of each other's insecurities , perhaps one day you will find the same kind of support. keep working on your attachment style and emotional healing and the future gets brighter. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 12:42:27 GMT
Interesting confirmation of my suspicions ... Don't ask a DA (not an FA) if your bum looks big in this, then... ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer Well, it was joke - and it's not really a 'stupid' question (a bit of a harsh response?) ... and in real life, I genuinely don't need to worry about that question  But the point is about empathy and its link to anxiety; if you care about someone, wouldn't you want to limit upsetting them unnecessarily - because you can appreciate how bad the raw truth may leave them feeling? Because you care about them AND about their feelings? Or you may think it is a stupid question, but they may not - and being empathic means that you can appreciate their sensitivities. Based on the survival of longer-term marriages, etc, (and one would presume therefore, more Secure couples), being sensitive / answering in an empathic way is most important. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 12:53:49 GMT
Interesting confirmation of my suspicions ... Don't ask a DA (not an FA) if your bum looks big in this, then... ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer im just messing with you- i know you've had a horrible experience with someone, but no need to troll the DA women on this site who are consistently offering support to others of all styles. by the way, it's a shallow question about your bum, and a rather needy one- but my partner and i take good care of each other's insecurities , perhaps one day you will find the same kind of support. keep working on your attachment style and emotional healing and the future gets brighter. Your post has been edited since my response, but anyway: I am not trolling. I was pointing out an observation of the difference between FA and DA, based on the posts of FAs and DAs and their sensitivities to other's feelings, in my learnings about the last FA (and my FA tendencies). Yes, I have one of number of bad experiences (not just one). One truth is this: I left this forum for a short while as I felt quite triggered by some of your responses to myself and others which I feel can often be quite harsh, at a time when I am also dealing with a serious health issue. I have since dealt with that triggering, applied acceptance and returned here. Upon returning I followed a detailed post and that point jumped out at me. But here I go, with the old AP tendency of attempting to justify myself. So I'll stop there. I expect a harsh response ... acceptingly |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 12:54:27 GMT
ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer Well, it was joke - and it's not really a 'stupid' question (a bit of a harsh response?) ... and in real life, I genuinely don't need to worry about that question But the point is about empathy and its link to anxiety; if you care about someone, wouldn't you want to limit upsetting them unnecessarily - because you can appreciate how bad the raw truth may leave them feeling? Because you care about them AND about their feelings? Or you may think it is a stupid question, but they may not - and being empathic means that you can appreciate their sensitivities. Based on the survival of longer-term marriages, etc, (and one would presume therefore, more Secure couples), being sensitive / answering in an empathic way is most important. i don't lack empathy but thanks for the information. just keep working at it, your own path will reveal itself in time. take good care! |
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andy
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Post by andy on Aug 23, 2018 15:12:45 GMT
Attachment theory is helpful for me to reconcile my perception that my ex did share my feelings with the mystery and pain of being suddenly dumped. It's nice to be able to have compassion for him and believe that he is a good person who was not doing anything deliberately misleading. It's nicer than thinking he never had any feelings for me and just acted like he did. How to get unstuck, now that's something I still need to figure out right now too. Deep down, do you really want to be unstuck? Did you feel just as stuck during the whole time you were apart, or did you just re-fixate on her when you became friends? I relate, happyidiot . If anything, though, I feel that the compassion I feel based on my understanding of where she was coming from makes it harder for me to get over her. I get that she wasn't trying to string me along or confuse me or reject me, that I participated in those dynamics myself, and that we both did our best. It might actually be easier if I just felt angry about what, on the surface, might have looked like bad behaviour on her part. I mean, a lot of my friends just saw it as bad behaviour and thought I should be pissed. But I know that she is actually a very caring person. It would be great if I could reconcile that knowledge with an emotional impulse to keep myself out of any bad dynamics with her. Anger is an emotion that would support that action, but I seldom ever feel anger in my life generally, and I haven't felt it in relation to this situation with the ex for a very long time. (I tend to channel any anger into sadness anyway - again with the gender socialization! - which gets me into trouble in many kinds of interactions where anger would be informative to me and warranted.) It isn't like anger is the only way to get motivated to take care of one's own interests, but it can be hard to do it out of a strictly intellectual awareness that it will be healthy and lead to good things. I need to harness some other emotion to keep me moving forward. Self-love? Confidence? A new take on hope? Are any of these powerful enough to do the trick? That's a perceptive question about whether I really want to be unstuck. No, I don't think I do, deep down. I've been trying to understand what I get out of the continued focus on her. Emotional interest and intensity, which I like. Maybe a little bit of intrigue and mystery that feels engaging to me. Extra inspiration to do creative stuff, because she's a creative type, and when I was with her I got super creative myself, which felt great. And for sure, the obvious AP thing, which is the hope that if she shows she care about me, I'll have proven myself worthy and found a happy ending to this too-familiar story. |
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andy
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Post by andy on Aug 23, 2018 15:31:20 GMT
Really well said happyidiot and your post, andy does resonate with me too. It's like you're almost willing your ex to share the same drive to understand attachment styles as we do in the hope that it will eventually mean the attachment style won't affect the relationship the way it has already. I'm not sure if this is an 'AP thing' or just a certain type of person 'thing', but sometimes I feel it too. When I'm feeling more 'secure' I guess, or at least a little more level headed and sensible (definitely not triggered) I am aware that just as we as APs can't always understand when we are triggered, and it's not as simple as just thinking "Well this isn't rational, I'll stop clinging/crying/being needy", perhaps an avoidant can't just resolve to "I'm only pushing because I'm scared, I'll stop pushing now". I wrote myself a list recently of all of the times that I can recall acting in a way that I am sure was AP behaviour and I can't recall thinking at the time that I was being unreasonable, that's not to say that hysterically crying feels good at the time, but it certainly doesn't feel like there's any other way to deal with it when I'm right in the thick of it. So I can assume that when an FA or DA is triggered, they're also acting in the only way they know how. I think I'm in the same boat as you andy, granted you're two years further on than me (my break-up is very fresh), but the suddenness of the break-up makes it very hard, right? Like happyidiot has said, to the avoidant that is doing the dumping, it just seems like the right thing to do for them, even if they can't explain why. My ex certainly couldn't, he just said 'something was missing' even though he acknowledged that we had it 'all' for the majority of the relationship and we really were in love. He couldn't put his finger on what was missing, but to him I'm sure it's felt like this overwhelming need to just get out of the relationship. Again, like you, I suspect we will continue to cross paths as he's a family friend and we now share the same friends so actually, I would probably be better placed taking advice from you as to how the friendship dynamic works for you? I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that wonders whether things could change in the future i.e me work through my historic issues, and for my ex to take an interest in attachment styles and do the same but I think what we (you and I) both should remind ourselves is that we can't change someone else. Yes we can introduce people to attachment styles but it's our own journey (and their own, if they wish), and as much as we can imagine and convince ourselves that but for our attachment styles, we wouldn't have found ourselves separated from our respective partners, it's happened. It might sound somewhat 'airy fairy' but what will be, will be. What we can do, is concentrate on improving our own security and believe that we can align ourselves to not only offer more 'security' to a future (or ex ) partner but be in a position to desire and accept more security for ourselves. It is nice to find so many people who can relate. Thanks, jess92 . I guess my experience was a little different in the relationship because, without knowing anything about attachment theory at the time, I still got the sense that some of my reactions were unreasonable (analyzing texts, response time, etc.). That created its own problems, because I just told myself that I couldn't POSSIBLY talk about texts with my ex because it was petty. It wasn't petty, though, it was a very clear pattern, and it would have been very healthy for me to open up a conversation early in the game about our communication styles and preferences. Instead I just tried to will myself to stop feeling hurt by it. Not helpful, and not true to myself! For AP I think there is a tricky dynamic because, yes, hurt feelings can originate from or be intensified by sensitivities that aren't really about the other person or what they said/did. Yet, I don't think it is helpful to view the hurt feelings as illegitimate or unspeakable for that reason. If you can understand where the feelings are coming from and share that information with the other person, the conversation might be less likely to trigger a defensive reaction in them and more likely to lead to some productive problem-solving. It can feel really vulnerable to put the feelings out there where they may be judged when WE likely judge them harshly ourselves already. But first and foremost, we need to have our own backs and remember that our feelings matter and are legit and we need to tend to them. "Oversensitive" - so what? It's who we are, and we must resist shame. I think that changing attachment style starts with changing behaviours (speaking honestly and assertively, setting boundaries), and that the change to feelings may follow much later. How has the friendship worked out for me? Well, after the breakup I asked for NC and did that for 7 months (for reference, the relationship was 5 months). After we reconnected as friends, it was emotionally messy for me. I cried after seeing her the first few times. Had stay to unfollowed from her Facebook for a couple more months even after the NC ended. But that upset has subsided, and now if anything all I feel is very subtle sadness after we part ways after hanging out. Plus still overthinking what I wear when I see her, trying to impress her, etc. And dreaming about her frequently, which shows the head space she still occupies. I met someone else I liked and lost interest in the ex for a bit, but that didn't work out so I went back to focusing on her. But anyway, I don't feel I'm totally stuck (blocked from getting into someone new), but I'm a bit stuck for sure. And as I admitted earlier, I kinda like it. I'm trying to assess whether/how much it really harms me these days. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 17:38:17 GMT
the way i see it, AP tend to apply the knowledge about their partner's attachment style as a guide to where they might be able to compromise their own needs to make their partner feel more safe, or comfortable, or happy, or at least less unhappy. It seems more effort goes into understanding how the partner ticks, and trying their best to accommodate that, in order to avoid perceived abandonment. I see emotional unavailability on the AP part in this, kind of a transactional dynamic- i gave you space, don't leave me. i needed less, don't leave me. Instead of seeing the incompatibility between their dysfunction/needs and their partner's needs/dysfunction, i see AP's trying to forge compatibility without real intimacy and vulnerability. i see it in all the threads where the AP poster recounts how they did this, and this, and this for their avoidant partner and still are unhappy, their needs are not met, and their partner left or is chronically unavailable. I see it in all the boundaries not set or not enforced, because flaws in the partners ability to respect them are excused by attachment theory. "He does x because he is avoidant and that is what avoidant do." True. but does it work for you? there is an over-empathizing, an enabling feel to the relationship dramas that play out when an AP seeks a lot of information and understanding of their partners attachment style. AP may read all the books, and is hanging in there, with none of their needs met consistently. something is amiss with this. It would be better to uncover and address the insecurity that contributes to the compulsion to seek love and consistency from an emotionally unavailable partner. that's what it looks like from my perspective. Blumming ekk juniper you have blown my mind too. You are right on girl. Thank you as always for your incredible insight and taking the time to share it on this wonderful forum 😘 i'm glad you see this is coming from a place of advocacy for you!!! All of us have our blind spots but when the lights come on... things can change! ❤️ |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 19:13:52 GMT
ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer im just messing with you- i know you've had a horrible experience with someone, but no need to troll the DA women on this site who are consistently offering support to others of all styles. by the way, it's a shallow question about your bum, and a rather needy one- but my partner and i take good care of each other's insecurities , perhaps one day you will find the same kind of support. keep working on your attachment style and emotional healing and the future gets brighter. Your post has been edited since my response, but anyway: I am not trolling. I was pointing out an observation of the difference between FA and DA, based on the posts of FAs and DAs and their sensitivities to other's feelings, in my learnings about the last FA (and my FA tendencies). Yes, I have one of number of bad experiences (not just one). One truth is this: I left this forum for a short while as I felt quite triggered by some of your responses to myself and others which I feel can often be quite harsh, at a time when I am also dealing with a serious health issue. I have since dealt with that triggering, applied acceptance and returned here. Upon returning I followed a detailed post and that point jumped out at me. But here I go, with the old AP tendency of attempting to justify myself. So I'll stop there. I expect a harsh response ... acceptingly i'm glad you're feeling better- acceptance really is key. i perceived a pattern of toxicity and hostility in your posting, and utilized the block feature. you can choose the level of blocking, customize it to what suits you. i have you completely blocked so that direct communication is disabled, and your posts are hidden from my view unless i choose to unhide them. That way, i can engage on the forum in a way that is within my personal boundaries, and not encounter you unless i choose to. my objective here is to participate on an anonymous internet forum with other attachment injured individuals in various levels of recovery. some interactions will be helpful, whether challenging or inspiring, and some are simply a waste of time. we all have the responsibility and the opportunity to choose what we would and would not like to engage in here. So, again- acceptance is key, emotional boundaries are paramount when interacting on a forum, and blocking is a useful feature, at your disposal. In the future, it might be better for you to avoid quoting me if you'd like to not hear directly from me. I may or may not respond, it depends on the content. You're half of any conversation you have here. If conversations with me trigger you, or if they cause you to feel anything that you would not like to feel, i certainly encourage you to protect yourself from that with the tools and actions available to you. Best to you! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 19:25:32 GMT
ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer Well, it was joke - and it's not really a 'stupid' question (a bit of a harsh response?) ... and in real life, I genuinely don't need to worry about that question But the point is about empathy and its link to anxiety; if you care about someone, wouldn't you want to limit upsetting them unnecessarily - because you can appreciate how bad the raw truth may leave them feeling? Because you care about them AND about their feelings? Or you may think it is a stupid question, but they may not - and being empathic means that you can appreciate their sensitivities. Based on the survival of longer-term marriages, etc, (and one would presume therefore, more Secure couples), being sensitive / answering in an empathic way is most important. what you're missing, in my perspective of this, is that while i view queries about buttock size and shape to be superficial and (somewhat) emotionally (insecure or) needy, in my intimate relationships i have full acceptance of strengths and weaknesses in each and every one of us. The point is, between my partner and i, we can readily admit and embrace our failings, faults, and foibles, as well as physical imperfections which are superficial and relative given the nature of aging human bodies...and cover them with an attitude of grace for ourselves, and each other. There is no lack of empathy between us and i agree with your assessment about secure partnerships- and i consider mine to be exactly so. We have a rapport and communication style that works for us. Such a question between us would be met with some laughter, a reminder about deeper qualities, and honest assessment, and encouragement if needed. Because butt dimensions aren't what keep us interested and together. On an internet discussion forum, we are strangers with commonalities and differences. The emotional engagement is decidedly different that engagement in personal relationships. That doesn't mean that courtesy isn't valuable, but it does mean that much information is offered for informational purposes. Much feedback is given objectively without the intention to harm, or enable. How it is delivered is down to the delivery style of the one offering their time and effort to engage, how it is received is up to the recipient. I see many recipients voicing their authentic reactions and feeling empowered and satisfied with both the opportunity to do so, and also with the resolution of any conflict that may have occurred during the exchange. So, onward and upward on the internet forum. Again, best to you. |
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Post by goldilocks on Aug 23, 2018 20:00:46 GMT
Asking if your butt is big is most often ineffective communication.
The asker is not seeking to be informed, but fishing for a compliment. A compliment forced out of the other party in this way is less likely to provide the desired validation. If no compliment is given, the asker is likely to hurt herself emotionally by coming up with a narrative of being unloved or unattractive if her buttocks look big.
A more effective alternative is to simply request a compliment. Yes this is more vulerable, but at least gives the other person the freedom to choose something he appreciates and the communication is more open. Requesting a compliment openly is not a double bind.
I'm generally less attracted to people who need a lot of validation and see this as more of a flaw than larger buttocks. I would feel far more tender towards the open request for a compliment and a bit resentful towards fishing. My mother does fish for compliments and I might indulge her because she is my mother. I know not to stay over for too long because I sometimes have to handle her rather than relating to her.
The best answer I can think of is "You are too cute to be fishing for compliments. Just have patience and trust that you will receive one."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 20:07:09 GMT
Asking if your butt is big is most often ineffective communication. The asker is not seeking to be informed, but fishing for a compliment. A compliment forced out of the other party in this way is less likely to provide the desired validation. If no compliment is given, the asker is likely to hurt herself emotionally by coming up with a narrative of being unloved or unattractive if her buttocks look big. A more effective alternative is to simply request a compliment. Yes this is more vulerable, but at least gives the other person the freedom to choose something he appreciates and the communication is more open. Requesting a compliment openly is not a double bind. I'm generally less attracted to people who need a lot of validation and see this as more of a flaw than larger buttocks. I would feel far more tender towards the open request for a compliment and a bit resentful towards fishing. My mother does fish for compliments and I might indulge her because she is my mother. I know not to stay over for too long because I sometimes have to handle her rather than relating to her. The best answer I can think of is "You are too cute to be fishing for compliments. Just have patience and trust that you will receive one." love!!! ♥️ |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 20:14:40 GMT
i've got a musclebutt and such a question to my man would be answered with a "YES, BRING IT OVER HERE."  he is some years my senior though, and sometimes feels self conscious about aging ahead of me. not often, but sometimes he expresses it, which i think is completely vulnerable, and normal. i am happy to reassure him, and he would do the same for me. it comes down to the dynamic between two people- insecurity and neediness occurs on a spectrum and i definitely am not interested in someone who needs a lot of continuous validation. so it's dependent on the individuals and the dynamic. if it becomes a real sticking point, the relationship probably has deeper instability than can be measured by an assessment of booty beauty. |
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