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Post by writerguy on Sept 24, 2018 18:29:14 GMT
Thanks to all of you on this forum who have called me on my obsessive blaming, searching, and asking questions about my FA ex. I've finally realized that it's MY SH%T that I've been avoiding by talking about her. I've finally realized that EVERY question, probing, and problem I'm looking to lay on her, I'm now asking ABOUT MYSELF. It takes two to tango. What's MY abandonment issue? What's MY need to be in a half-relationship? Where's MY self-esteem at? Why am I avoiding MY EMOTIONAL MESS?! (Fear, of course, seems to be the answer to so much of it.)
It is the most painful emotional exercise I think I've ever done: staring in this mirror that she represents and now seeing ME...for maybe the first time in my adult life. It's frightening and awful and maddening. There's so much scar tissue to dig through to get at all the wounds underneath. And the digging continues. I have a good therapist and time. And, maybe, some hope.
I'll be taking a break from here as it's too tempting to fall into the pit of blaming and self-pity and pointing fingers (for me, at least.) Be well.
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Post by epicgum on Sept 24, 2018 19:02:50 GMT
Hey writerguy dont forget to love yourself! That's an important step!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 15:20:30 GMT
"The mirror" is a good metaphor. Personally, I am not very in tune with my feelings. The one avoidant guy who is pursuing me now is like a reflection of me, because he's also unemotional. But he's like a shadow reflection. The way he goes about getting his needs met is through control. Me: through servitude. So we fit like puzzle pieces in that way. He makes up for what I lack and vice versa. The solution is for either one of us to change, which would prompt the other into changing by themselves because the dynamic won't allow it otherwise. That's only if they truly wish to be part of the relationship... if they fall to the wayside, it means there was little there to salvage anyway.
In other words: we both need to be more open and honest about our feelings. But the way to go about it is different. I need to be more selfish and he needs to be more compassionate.
I'm not very available myself. I think I seek others who aren't available because when, in my mind, I get them to change and open up to me, I have succeeded in being worthy of love. It's so messed up.
But this time, it's different. I have truly looked inwards and I know exactly what my problems are. So I have not given in to his advances and control tactics. From day 1 I knew something was wrong with the both of us. So I have worked on myself, every time he tries to get close in a "fake intimacy" kind of way, or "whirlwind romance" manner, I reject it. I've gotten to the point where the pace is now pretty slow: the way we both like it. I'm selfish ENOUGH now for that stuff to not work on me. And he knows it.
The ultimate test: I want to see just how far it can go when I reach a good balance of selfishness and empathy... when my boundaries are good but flexible at the appropriate times. When I'm more secure than insecure in my attachment style. Will he still stick around? If not, SEE YA! I don't need that in my life.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 28, 2018 15:47:01 GMT
@blacksnow, that's a good way to put it I hadn't thought about. My FA ex also feels much more comfortable with control, even if it's just an illusion, and sometimes ups his bids for attention with "whirlwind romance" gestures. I usually just referred to them as times he was pulling instead of pushing, but the way you're describing it as another tactic to get his needs met but still in a less than authentic way (since he's out of touch with himself) rings true. And I agree with you, if I see it that way, then they should be rejected.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 16:52:04 GMT
alexandra Yes, omg, it's because they want attention and affection, and instead of being direct with it or going about getting it in a normal way (like initiating it, open to being told 'no' and taking the disappointment in stride) they have to be all manipulative and extra-gesture-like because they fear rejection and that's the only way they could be all "okay, I'm not really hurt" if indeed they are "rejected." Mine has a problem when I say no to something, he takes it personally and as a reflection of his supposed worthlessness and it's not even true but that's his issue to deal with, I'm tired of giving him leeway. I guess you could say it is both pulling and pushing. They pull you towards them because they want more, but they do it in a pushy way so they don't have to feel the pain. It makes so much sense... I have an example of this weird simultaneous push/pull thing. When he wants me to be physically affectionate with him, he sort of gets in my way, blocking my path, just to see how I'll react. What he wants: for me to start playfully hitting him so we can flirt. What I do: just get out of his way or stand there until HE moves.
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 29, 2018 9:57:25 GMT
alexandra Yes, omg, it's because they want attention and affection, and instead of being direct with it or going about getting it in a normal way (like initiating it, open to being told 'no' and taking the disappointment in stride) they have to be all manipulative and extra-gesture-like because they fear rejection and that's the only way they could be all "okay, I'm not really hurt" if indeed they are "rejected." Mine has a problem when I say no to something, he takes it personally and as a reflection of his supposed worthlessness and it's not even true but that's his issue to deal with, I'm tired of giving him leeway. I guess you could say it is both pulling and pushing. They pull you towards them because they want more, but they do it in a pushy way so they don't have to feel the pain. It makes so much sense... I have an example of this weird simultaneous push/pull thing. When he wants me to be physically affectionate with him, he sort of gets in my way, blocking my path, just to see how I'll react. What he wants: for me to start playfully hitting him so we can flirt. What I do: just get out of his way or stand there until HE moves. I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say. Push/pull normally means a cycle of “come close/go away” behaviors. Someone might give you a lot of attention and then withdraw, for example. This just sounds like a cute way he tries to flirts with you. To me it sounds kinda power-hungry to coldly refuse to reward his attempt at flirting, like he is a misbehaving child. Am I missing something? Why does it bug you if he tries to initiate flirting by physically getting in your way? I like when partners do that. What's your attachment type? Going back to the mirror concept, what else do you think you could work on aside from becoming more "selfish"?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 14:48:20 GMT
happyidiot yes, push/pull is a cycle. I'm talking about certain actions from the avoidant that are also push/pull but not in a cyclic manner, but rather the way they try to get close is ironically repelling (to me). It's not cute though, the guy is a coworker, not my partner. And he crosses a lot of boundaries in an attempt to get close, like brushing against me and getting in my personal space just because he wants to get physical. We've barely had a real conversation because a lot of what he does is part of a facade. He doesn't know better, actually I think he knows better but it's very hard for him... I see him trying little by little now, and I give him time. IDK my attachment type, equal parts anxious/DA/FA, but another test shows I'm equal DA/FA. Still recovering so it shifts a lot. As far as what I can work on: actually being direct and voicing my feelings, instead of avoiding and hoping other people can read my mind.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 14:58:21 GMT
happyidiot yes, push/pull is a cycle. I'm talking about certain actions from the avoidant that are also push/pull but not in a cyclic manner, but rather the way they try to get close is ironically repelling (to me). It's not cute though, the guy is a coworker, not my partner. And he crosses a lot of boundaries in an attempt to get close, like brushing against me and getting in my personal space just because he wants to get physical. We've barely had a real conversation because a lot of what he does is part of a facade. He doesn't know better, actually I think he knows better but it's very hard for him... I see him trying little by little now, and I give him time. IDK my attachment type, equal parts anxious/DA/FA, but another test shows I'm equal DA/FA. Still recovering so it shifts a lot. As far as what I can work on: actually being direct and voicing my feelings, instead of avoiding and hoping other people can read my mind. That's workplace harassment and has nothing to do with being DA. He may be, who knows, but I have had plenty of guys push sexual boundaries at work and it's gross. Many of them I suspect are not DA at all. It's just bad behavior.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 21:32:42 GMT
@mary I think it's harassment as well. But I know he has seen me be playful with other people when they were in my way, and soon after is when he tried to do it. So it can very well be related to him being avoidant rather than building something normally and letting it happen organically. So in short: it's both bad behavior and him being indirect because of his issues, IMO.
Edit: just realized I'm dealing with a narcissist. I'm quite sure at this point. After thinking it over (and over and over), things just don't add up.
The theory is that all narcissists are avoidant, but not all avoidants are narcissists, and that narcissism is really at the more extreme end of the "avoidant" spectrum.... this seems to make a lot of sense at this point. There is a lot of manipulation I sense from him, and it doesn't fit the picture if I only saw him as strictly avoidant.
He hasn't been able to fully capture me, and he keeps trying using different tactics. I must not give in until I leave for a different job. This person is sick. I tried so much to see the good in him but it's all an act on his part and I cannot ignore the bad. What he does is very covert because we don't really have a relationship of sorts, I imagine it would be so much worse if we were to date. My gut is screaming to get away from him. But... I am not scared. He doesn't trigger me like he used to. It means I've done much of the inner work required to break the cycle.
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 1, 2018 8:56:47 GMT
happyidiot yes, push/pull is a cycle. I'm talking about certain actions from the avoidant that are also push/pull but not in a cyclic manner, but rather the way they try to get close is ironically repelling (to me). It's not cute though, the guy is a coworker, not my partner. And he crosses a lot of boundaries in an attempt to get close, like brushing against me and getting in my personal space just because he wants to get physical. We've barely had a real conversation because a lot of what he does is part of a facade. He doesn't know better, actually I think he knows better but it's very hard for him... I see him trying little by little now, and I give him time. IDK my attachment type, equal parts anxious/DA/FA, but another test shows I'm equal DA/FA. Still recovering so it shifts a lot. As far as what I can work on: actually being direct and voicing my feelings, instead of avoiding and hoping other people can read my mind. Oh! I totally thought you were dating him, the way you talk about him using words like "mine." Yeah that's not ok. Being direct is so hard, that's a good one to work on.
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Post by writerguy on Oct 5, 2018 17:31:52 GMT
happyidiot yes, push/pull is a cycle. I'm talking about certain actions from the avoidant that are also push/pull but not in a cyclic manner, but rather the way they try to get close is ironically repelling (to me). It's not cute though, the guy is a coworker, not my partner. And he crosses a lot of boundaries in an attempt to get close, like brushing against me and getting in my personal space just because he wants to get physical. We've barely had a real conversation because a lot of what he does is part of a facade. He doesn't know better, actually I think he knows better but it's very hard for him... I see him trying little by little now, and I give him time. IDK my attachment type, equal parts anxious/DA/FA, but another test shows I'm equal DA/FA. Still recovering so it shifts a lot. As far as what I can work on: actually being direct and voicing my feelings, instead of avoiding and hoping other people can read my mind. Oh! I totally thought you were dating him, the way you talk about him using words like "mine." Yeah that's not ok. Being direct is so hard, that's a good one to work on. Just a quick note from my last therapy session: my therapist said to be cautious using others as a mirror, because sometimes you're looking into a "funhouse mirror" depending on who THEY are and what THEY bring to the party. It's a good place to start looking inward, but you can do it with a clear eye for your own issues in a kind, healing, and self-caring way.
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 6, 2018 0:03:41 GMT
Just a quick note from my last therapy session: my therapist said to be cautious using others as a mirror, because sometimes you're looking into a "funhouse mirror" depending on who THEY are and what THEY bring to the party. It's a good place to start looking inward, but you can do it with a clear eye for your own issues in a kind, healing, and self-caring way. Interesting. Can you explain more about this? What I am guessing he/she meant is to make sure you are checking to see if you are seeing an accurate reflection or one that is really twisted by the other person? For example, if I looked at my abusive ex as a mirror, I might have seen myself in a very negative light because I behaved pretty badly in that relationship, however the main lesson was just that I should not be with someone like that: those problems disappeared when I dated someone who treated me well. Looking in the mirror wasn't the problem, as the mirror showed me that I played a role in the dynamic, I need to not choose partners like that and there is a reason I did, and that it wasn't just something that happened to me that I could do nothing about. But I could've potentially gotten caught up thinking something like I am abusive too, because I would scream back at him when he screamed at me. Or someone who dated someone super avoidant might perhaps look in the mirror and think "oh my god I am the most AP person ever" when perhaps they are just moderately AP in general but it was really brought out by that particular dynamic?
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Post by writerguy on Oct 8, 2018 5:44:31 GMT
Just a quick note from my last therapy session: my therapist said to be cautious using others as a mirror, because sometimes you're looking into a "funhouse mirror" depending on who THEY are and what THEY bring to the party. It's a good place to start looking inward, but you can do it with a clear eye for your own issues in a kind, healing, and self-caring way. Interesting. Can you explain more about this? What I am guessing he/she meant is to make sure you are checking to see if you are seeing an accurate reflection or one that is really twisted by the other person? For example, if I looked at my abusive ex as a mirror, I might have seen myself in a very negative light because I behaved pretty badly in that relationship, however the main lesson was just that I should not be with someone like that: those problems disappeared when I dated someone who treated me well. Looking in the mirror wasn't the problem, as the mirror showed me that I played a role in the dynamic, I need to not choose partners like that and there is a reason I did, and that it wasn't just something that happened to me that I could do nothing about. But I could've potentially gotten caught up thinking something like I am abusive too, because I would scream back at him when he screamed at me. Or someone who dated someone super avoidant might perhaps look in the mirror and think "oh my god I am the most AP person ever" when perhaps they are just moderately AP in general but it was really brought out by that particular dynamic? I think you get the basic gist of what my therapist was saying: in my case, my FA ex has an issue with intimacy and I don't (I'm a secure type) but he used that to look at what I WAS getting from the relationship - namely, being a fixer and trying to make it right over time even if the relationship only got worse.
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