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Post by faithopelove on Sept 29, 2018 4:06:21 GMT
Advice? Anyone have thoughts on the best way to build trust with a fearful avoidant ex? I’ve been seeing my ex for 10 months casually, only about 2 to 3 times a month, and I wonder if it’s better to be there for him or to let go completely. I initiate all the texting and his walls are still fully activated aroundvhus heart. When he does open up he tells me there’s something wrong with him and he has a hard time trusting. What’s the most important thing for me to do? Build trust or draw boundaries and have him miss me? And how to best build trust? I’ve been supporting and encouraging- he beats himself up a lot. I try to not apply pressure- as a recovering anxious this took some work but I’ve been good lately.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 29, 2018 5:03:11 GMT
faithopelove, you should read some of my posts and some of kristyrose 's posts. Some are about being AP/earned secure and trying to navigate with FA exes who aren't particularly willing to do the self work they might need to to fully heal. It's a lot of coming to terms with cycling and repeated behavior. It's great that you've been working on yourself and becoming more secure, which may be why you're now willing to question things. The advice I'll offer is, you should decide if you're willing to accept him exactly how he is, even if nothing ever changes and this is the dynamic you two have together. Is that enough for you? You can try to build trust, but you have to remember that the reason he lacks trust for you isn't because of you or anything you did to prove you're trustworthy or not. Insecure avoidant types have a lot of difficulty fully trusting others. That is a big part of the attachment issue, and it's a challenge from childhood that preceded you. That also means, assuming the person trying to reach out to them has acted in trustworthy ways, the avoidant person is the only one who can do the work to fix it. As long as you're not doing anything to violate his trust, there's literally nothing else you can do besides look after yourself if he's unwilling to start facing his issues. You can't do that for him. Also, building trust and setting boundaries should not be mutually exclusive. Why specifically might you be thinking about it that way?
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Post by faithopelove on Sept 30, 2018 9:01:48 GMT
Thank you for your response- everything you said resonated with me. I think I could be happy with our dynamic as it was before our break- esp now that I’m educated about attachment style and have made a lot of progress regarding my anxious attachment. My newly regulated emotional self-control would go a long way in helping my ex feel more comfortable in a relationship.
To answer your question, I suppose I brought up building trust in connection with boundaries bc I feel if I draw a hard line in the sand, for example, say no more sex or we need to start “dating” again before attempting to reconcile, then I feel I would break down trust between us and further isolate him.
Yes, I recognize trust issues are his own. I’ve shown myself to be trust-worthy to him regarding fidelity; however, I had a handful of emotional breakdowns in our relationships triggered by my anxiety. These meltdowns were too much “drama” for him and caused him to doubt me and break up with me. Recognizing my past behavior and his natural tendency to be distrustful has caused me to focus on rebuilding trust as a way to bring us back together. I believe a lack of trust and belief on his part reinforces his fears and hold him back from letting his guard down. He desires love and connection but feels depressed, afraid and incapable of giving and receiving intimacy and love. Yes, he definitely has his own work to do, I’m just trying my best to navigate these waters with him in the most productive way. 🙂
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 30, 2018 12:51:46 GMT
Thank you for your response- everything you said resonated with me. I think I could be happy with our dynamic as it was before our break- esp now that I’m educated about attachment style and have made a lot of progress regarding my anxious attachment. My newly regulated emotional self-control would go a long way in helping my ex feel more comfortable in a relationship. To answer your question, I suppose I brought up building trust in connection with boundaries bc I feel if I draw a hard line in the sand, for example, say no more sex or we need to start “dating” again before attempting to reconcile, then I feel I would break down trust between us and further isolate him. Yes, I recognize trust issues are his own. I’ve shown myself to be trust-worthy to him regarding fidelity; however, I had a handful of emotional breakdowns in our relationships triggered by my anxiety. These meltdowns were too much “drama” for him and caused him to doubt me and break up with me. Recognizing my past behavior and his natural tendency to be distrustful has caused me to focus on rebuilding trust as a way to bring us back together. I believe a lack of trust and belief on his part reinforces his fears and hold him back from letting his guard down. He desires love and connection but feels depressed, afraid and incapable of giving and receiving intimacy and love. Yes, he definitely has his own work to do, I’m just trying my best to navigate these waters with him in the most productive way. 🙂 It sounds like you want to continue seeing him in the hope of a reconciliation. But what if that does not happen. What if you are "comfortable" but he has no interest in progressing things? What if he actually meets someone else at some point and starts a relationship with her while believing the two of you are friends? I get the "I have changed what caused him to break up with me and surely in time he will want to date me again" perspective....but have you spoken to him about where he sees things between the two of you? I think it would be beneficial to have a "check in" with him...just so you aren't working from two different motives. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 16:03:06 GMT
For me, trust and boundaries are heavily connected. If someone continuously breaks my boundaries, it breaks down the trust. How can I trust someone that doesn't respect my boundaries and can't control their own actions? It has been my experience that APs do not even know when the boundaries are being violated. A lot of times they don't even "see" the boundaries. Anxious moments have an appearance of wanting to control, which repels an avoidant.
My ex thought he was trustworthy too, with the occasional "mistake". He thought his "love" for me should be enough. I didn't see him as trustworthy at all. Perhaps you have violated boundaries that are important to him and you don't even know? If he is unaware, he has expressed this as "drama" and can't even pinpoint exactly what that means to him. In the past, I have used the word drama as well, but now I know, it meant for me that boundaries and trust were broken.
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Post by faithopelove on Sept 30, 2018 17:31:49 GMT
For me, trust and boundaries are heavily connected. If someone continuously breaks my boundaries, it breaks down the trust. How can I trust someone that doesn't respect my boundaries and can't control their own actions? It has been my experience that APs do not even know when the boundaries are being violated. A lot of times they don't even "see" the boundaries. Anxious moments have an appearance of wanting to control, which repels an avoidant. My ex thought he was trustworthy too, with the occasional "mistake". He thought his "love" for me should be enough. I didn't see him as trustworthy at all. Perhaps you have violated boundaries that are important to him and you don't even know? If he is unaware, he has expressed this as "drama" and can't even pinpoint exactly what that means to him. In the past, I have used the word drama as well, but now I know, it meant for me that boundaries and trust were broken. |
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Post by faithopelove on Sept 30, 2018 17:54:35 GMT
For me, trust and boundaries are heavily connected. If someone continuously breaks my boundaries, it breaks down the trust. How can I trust someone that doesn't respect my boundaries and can't control their own actions? It has been my experience that APs do not even know when the boundaries are being violated. A lot of times they don't even "see" the boundaries. Anxious moments have an appearance of wanting to control, which repels an avoidant. My ex thought he was trustworthy too, with the occasional "mistake". He thought his "love" for me should be enough. I didn't see him as trustworthy at all. Perhaps you have violated boundaries that are important to him and you don't even know? If he is unaware, he has expressed this as "drama" and can't even pinpoint exactly what that means to him. In the past, I have used the word drama as well, but now I know, it meant for me that boundaries and trust were broken. |
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Post by faithopelove on Sept 30, 2018 18:01:51 GMT
Hi Mary, thanks for your perspective. I would say as an AP I normally may not see some boundaries but my ex is a strong FA so he had very clear boundaries in place. The drama he was referring to in our relationship were the conflicts we had which, 8 times out of 10, were mostly due to my overreacting loss of emotional self-control. I blew up his cell on a couple occasions and he couldn’t take that. He hung in with me for a couple but more weeks, but shut down emotionally and then broke up with me. I was trust-worthy in other ways, as far as fidelity etc but he viewed my actions as unstable and therefore I guess you could say my responses were unpredictable and he couldn’t trust me to remain calm and in control. Unfortunately, I wasn’t aware of my anxious attachment and how to manage it until after our break. He now has a hard time trusting I’ve changed- 10 months later and he still doesn’t believe in us, yet he’s unwilling to move on with anyone else.
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Post by faithopelove on Sept 30, 2018 18:03:49 GMT
Thank you for your response- everything you said resonated with me. I think I could be happy with our dynamic as it was before our break- esp now that I’m educated about attachment style and have made a lot of progress regarding my anxious attachment. My newly regulated emotional self-control would go a long way in helping my ex feel more comfortable in a relationship. To answer your question, I suppose I brought up building trust in connection with boundaries bc I feel if I draw a hard line in the sand, for example, say no more sex or we need to start “dating” again before attempting to reconcile, then I feel I would break down trust between us and further isolate him. Yes, I recognize trust issues are his own. I’ve shown myself to be trust-worthy to him regarding fidelity; however, I had a handful of emotional breakdowns in our relationships triggered by my anxiety. These meltdowns were too much “drama” for him and caused him to doubt me and break up with me. Recognizing my past behavior and his natural tendency to be distrustful has caused me to focus on rebuilding trust as a way to bring us back together. I believe a lack of trust and belief on his part reinforces his fears and hold him back from letting his guard down. He desires love and connection but feels depressed, afraid and incapable of giving and receiving intimacy and love. Yes, he definitely has his own work to do, I’m just trying my best to navigate these waters with him in the most productive way. 🙂 It sounds like you want to continue seeing him in the hope of a reconciliation. But what if that does not happen. What if you are "comfortable" but he has no interest in progressing things? What if he actually meets someone else at some point and starts a relationship with her while believing the two of you are friends? I get the "I have changed what caused him to break up with me and surely in time he will want to date me again" perspective....but have you spoken to him about where he sees things between the two of you? I think it would be beneficial to have a "check in" with him...just so you aren't working from two different motives. [ trn9 - |
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Post by faithopelove on Sept 30, 2018 18:11:35 GMT
It sounds like you want to continue seeing him in the hope of a reconciliation. But what if that does not happen. What if you are "comfortable" but he has no interest in progressing things? What if he actually meets someone else at some point and starts a relationship with her while believing the two of you are friends? I get the "I have changed what caused him to break up with me and surely in time he will want to date me again" perspective....but have you spoken to him about where he sees things between the two of you? I think it would be beneficial to have a "check in" with him...just so you aren't working from two different motives. [ trn9 - Yes, I understand I’m taking a risk by seeing him casually but it’s all he’s willing to as this point as his fears and doubts outweigh his belief in us. I checked in with him in July about our relationship and it didn’t go well...at all. He shut down on me and told me he’s incapable of being in a relationship and didn’t mean to string me along. He said he can’t take drama- although this time I feel he created his own drama by reacting so strongly to my question. He told me he has a hard time trusting, he’s not normal and feels like there’s something wrong with him. Not an encouraging talk at all, but I also honestly told him how I felt and about a week later he responded to a text and we continued to see each other despite our obvious disparate view points. He must feel much more comfortable in this casual relationship since he doesn’t need to invest at all emotionally. It’s hard for me to be only casual with him, but I’m hoping in time I’ll build trust w him. I know I’m relying on blind faith here and there are no guarantees. I do feel strongly he won’t start to see someone else, as he’s so fearful that if he wanted to date anyone I believe it would be me. At our break he said it was me or no one for him and so far he has been true to his in choosing to be alone. He has trust issues but he’s always been honest and loyal. He always demonstrated integrity. |
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Post by kristyrose on Sept 30, 2018 18:24:00 GMT
HI faithopeloveWelcome to the boards. For context here is my experience and what I can tell you: My ex is FA, I'm AP working towards earned Secure. I've been in therapy past 7 years and EMDR the past year. My ex and I dated for 2 years then he broke up with me in April 2017 claiming we fought too much and he didn't have strong enough feelings to work it out. So, I went NC for about 2 months and during that time he reached out to the point of desperation so I gave in and we have been doing what most would call dating the past year and a half. We spend weekends together go on trips, we are still intimate etc. So far he has not dated anyone... yet. He claimed earlier this year he would like to see others and we agreed we would tell each other if we meet someone we are interested in before we sleep with them. Ok, so I did exactly what you are doing. I thought if I were just kind, patient continued my own work, tried to set some boundaries and work with his attachment style we would eventually get back together. I even thought if he saw how we rarely fight and how much I've changed my AP ways for the better he would come around. I give him space, I work hard on self soothing.. you name it. Guess what though? We are in the exact same spot a year and half ago when he dumped me. He is getting EVERYTHING he needs from me. Love, attention, space, etc ALL on his terms. This has been an excruciating demoralizing experience and my biggest regret is that I did not honor the NC I had in place. I eventually tried earlier this year to have a real conversation with him about where we are and he looked shocked and said we are NOT getting back together. Despite holding me at night, taking me out to dinners, texting daily, calling me beautiful. I don't want to discourage you from trying but I do want you to think about time and how precious it is. My ex is not willing to do ANY work on himself and he is 47. It sounds like you are doing work on yourself and that is wonderful but it cannot save you both. Now if you are anything like me and I suspect you are, you will take this with a grain of salt. Do that. But also set a time limit for how long you are willing to stay in limbo like this. I can tell you every time I pulled back with my ex, he came back. This arrangement works well for FA types but not for others such as recovering AP's and Secures. He keeps me on the hook by giving in when I tell him I need to leave this, because it works so well for him. Meanwhile, I suffer and long for being his girlfriend again. I do recommend at some point having a talk with him, state how you feel, make no demands, and then be truly prepared to walk away. He will come back, but if its not to meet you halfway, then stay NC. Feel free to reach out anytime if you need to talk this out. Believe me, I have been in your shoes and am currently in your shoes so I completely understand. |
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Post by faithopelove on Sept 30, 2018 19:08:41 GMT
HI faithopeloveWelcome to the boards. For context here is my experience and what I can tell you: My ex is FA, I'm AP working towards earned Secure. I've been in therapy past 7 years and EMDR the past year. My ex and I dated for 2 years then he broke up with me in April 2017 claiming we fought too much and he didn't have strong enough feelings to work it out. So, I went NC for about 2 months and during that time he reached out to the point of desperation so I gave in and we have been doing what most would call dating the past year and a half. We spend weekends together go on trips, we are still intimate etc. So far he has not dated anyone... yet. He claimed earlier this year he would like to see others and we agreed we would tell each other if we meet someone we are interested in before we sleep with them. Ok, so I did exactly what you are doing. I thought if I were just kind, patient continued my own work, tried to set some boundaries and work with his attachment style we would eventually get back together. I even thought if he saw how we rarely fight and how much I've changed my AP ways for the better he would come around. I give him space, I work hard on self soothing.. you name it. Guess what though? We are in the exact same spot a year and half ago when he dumped me. He is getting EVERYTHING he needs from me. Love, attention, space, etc ALL on his terms. This has been an excruciating demoralizing experience and my biggest regret is that I did not honor the NC I had in place. I eventually tried earlier this year to have a real conversation with him about where we are and he looked shocked and said we are NOT getting back together. Despite holding me at night, taking me out to dinners, texting daily, calling me beautiful. I don't want to discourage you from trying but I do want you to think about time and how precious it is. My ex is not willing to do ANY work on himself and he is 47. It sounds like you are doing work on yourself and that is wonderful but it cannot save you both. Now if you are anything like me and I suspect you are, you will take this with a grain of salt. Do that. But also set a time limit for how long you are willing to stay in limbo like this. I can tell you every time I pulled back with my ex, he came back. This arrangement works well for FA types but not for others such as recovering AP's and Secures. He keeps me on the hook by giving in when I tell him I need to leave this, because it works so well for him. Meanwhile, I suffer and long for being his girlfriend again. I do recommend at some point having a talk with him, state how you feel, make no demands, and then be truly prepared to walk away. He will come back, but if its not to meet you halfway, then stay NC. Feel free to reach out anytime if you need to talk this out. Believe me, I have been in your shoes and am currently in your shoes so I completely understand. [ Hi Kristyrose, Thank you for your response and perspective. Our situations sound so very similar- it sounded like you were describing me and my ex. This has been a very trying road, as with you, everything is on my ex’s terms. We don’t even leave the house for a date and I initiate contact w him 99 times out of 100. No phone calls since the break. Just texts. He’s tough. He’s drawn some very clear boundaries and has told me in the past that he’s afraid to “string me along.” I think you’re right about having some kind of time frame in mind so I can see if this is actually going anywhere. I’d say we’ve made slight progress in the past 10 months, in that the first month after our break he wouldn’t see me at all and almost always ignored my text. So I feel I’ve restablished some rapport with him and we’re intimate but I feel I’m enabling him to settle bc we were so much more than this...and I def want more. If given the choice between being “all in” or walking away at this point, I’m sure he’d choose to walk. He’s not ready. I admire you for going 2 months no contact- the longest I went was 3 weeks on 3 different occasions and I was always the one to break it. My ex is not only FA but also an introvert and very comfortable home alone with his dog- I may have to go over a year NC for him to reach out. All frustrating, as you know. I’m trying to live day by day at this point and focus on myself, my kids and purpose and plans. He’s just too undependable at this point to ever count on. Even during our kid free weekends every other weekend he finds excuses not to see me- and being drama free w no conflicts seems to cause him to make up other reasons we can’t be together...he has a hard time trusting, we have kids so the most we can do is hangout etc I see most of his excuses as only a defense reflex that he uses to keep us apart, and him safe. I’m no longer in therapy- I feel my biggest help has come from finding my sense of love and security from within. Then no one can take it from me. Some days are easier than others though, as I’m sure you can relate!! Thank you so much for reaching out- feel free to write any time so we can support each other 💗 |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 1, 2018 4:51:42 GMT
Thank you for your response- everything you said resonated with me. I think I could be happy with our dynamic as it was before our break- That may be the case, but that is not your current dynamic and hasn't been for almost a year. He's told you he can't handle it, and told you what he can handle. You have to look at what's happening right now, and if it's not enough for you, reflect on why you aren't willing to walk away? My newly regulated emotional self-control would go a long way in helping my ex feel more comfortable in a relationship. While it's always good to have been able to recognize when your AP was activated in the past and it triggered behaviors that were not the best for the relationship, and learn from that, working on your attachment style should also be about learning to be comfortable with yourself, your needs, your boundaries, communicating those things, and (for an AP) improving self-confidence. Not an exhaustive list, but it's just as much about your relationship with yourself as it is showing up as a good partner, if not much moreso. The idea is that once you're healing and in a healthier place with yourself then you'll have the capacity to show up as a better partner, too. A lot of your posts so far have been more about learning to regulate the outward direction of your emotions so that you are coming across as patient and "perfect" for him, and are not as focused on what you are doing for you. To answer your question, I suppose I brought up building trust in connection with boundaries bc I feel if I draw a hard line in the sand, for example, say no more sex or we need to start “dating” again before attempting to reconcile, then I feel I would break down trust between us and further isolate him. I'm not sure why telling him how you have been feeling lately and then keeping your words and actions aligned (ie holding the boundary) would break down trust and isolate him? It sounds more like you're saying if you don't walk on eggshells around what you think he wants, you're afraid he'll leave. What has he said he does want? Does he want to reconcile? I had a handful of emotional breakdowns in our relationships triggered by my anxiety. These meltdowns were too much “drama” for him and caused him to doubt me and break up with me. Recognizing my past behavior and his natural tendency to be distrustful has caused me to focus on rebuilding trust as a way to bring us back together. I believe a lack of trust and belief on his part reinforces his fears and hold him back from letting his guard down. He desires love and connection but feels depressed, afraid and incapable of giving and receiving intimacy and love. Yes, he definitely has his own work to do, I’m just trying my best to navigate these waters with him in the most productive way. 🙂 Again, it may be the case that you showed some AP behaviors that you may regret now and that pushed him away at the time. Have you explained that to him and the reason you've stopped having meltdowns is the self-work you've done (and maybe what he can do to de-escalate those behaviors if they ever happen again and you're not able to control them?). In spite of those behaviors contributing to the breakup, it is also natural AP behavior to blame yourself for everything, and to think, if I just show up in a perfect way, I can control this outcome and get the partner to come back to me in the way I want. I speak from experience because I did this to some extent with my FA ex. I did not talk to him for 8 months after we broke up the first time, even though he actively tried to be friends, because I needed space (and I used this space to prioritize myself and start my push into earned secure!). However, while still AP at the time, I had convinced myself the breakup was somehow all my fault because I was not perfect enough (even though I knew he had a lot of issues and I was a pretty darn good girlfriend). We reconnected and spent many months working towards getting back together after I called him out on saying we were just friends but acting like we were dating again. I was sure it would go better the second time because I had my AP behaviors basically under control and if I had fixed my half, surely my newfound patience and improved self esteem would be enough? It wasn't, because he repeated all his behaviors exactly the same, no matter how I behaved! He did notice my changes, praised how I became an even better partner than before (even though he said the first break up was never really my fault even though he'd blamed me at first, he admitted it was all his baggage), then got very emotional and shared that he doesn't know why he's only incredibly attracted to terrible partners... we still ended up getting back together a few months later, but he panicked very quickly and ran away (in classic FA fashion, not too far away, he wants to stay close friends). Our problems have always been insecure attachment-related, but all the patience in the world doesn't work when only half the equation has been addressed, and he's unwilling to deal with his issues at this time. If at least one partner is stuck in patterns, they have to be willing to examine and break the cycle.
I'm being so blunt because in everything I'm reading, you still seem to think you have no control over the situation and are more concerned with what he thinks and feels than giving yourself the same courtesy. You do have control over your half of the situation (though you cannot control his half), and you can choose to honor yourself and what you want and not baby him. Yes, he's got emotional issues, but he's not a child and needs to take responsibility for his side of things. He's choosing not to do that right now and is giving you crumbs. You're taking all the initiative so that he can be comfortable, but being comfortable doesn't usually lead to people changing anything because... why would they have to?
If there's any way for you to take a step back and look at what you're getting out of being the pursuer, it may be an interesting angle to consider. When AP develops, the inconsistency from the parent (or other adult attachment figure) is in such a way that it seems to have a pattern so the child begins to think that they can control when they are getting their needs met by showing the "perfect" behavior towards their caregiver. There is this combined internalized belief that the child does not see him or herself as a good enough child to get their needs met just by being him/herself (the child doesn't know any better and assumes if their needs aren't being met, they must be at fault) and the mistaken "pattern" that proves they can control others and should take responsibility for the emotions/behaviors of others. This results in poor self-esteem, messy boundaries, and a hyper-active nervous system, and the flawed belief system carries over as an adult towards romantic attachment figures. It can translate to unproductive behaviors which lead to chaotic relationships. It makes sense to develop as a defense mechanism as a child, when you need to rely on your adult caretakers to survive, but it doesn't serve you out of context as an adult.
I'm interested to see if you step back and take more responsibility for yourself and far less responsibility for him, how that may change and possibly empower your perspective?
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Post by kristyrose on Oct 3, 2018 16:50:36 GMT
Amazing post alexandra. You explained the complexities of being AP in such a concise and perfect way. That is spot on of course and I think I needed to read this post as a reminder myself about how my ex does absolutely nothing to address his own issues and honestly he seems pretty content in not doing so. I haven't been speaking to him this week, its a long story but anyway point is, I thought of reaching out, can feel a physical urge in my stomach and throat to just send a text in response to his last one, but I realized, whats the point this time? He really hurt my feelings over the weekend and I'm still very angry and hurt. Why pursue him? Why not just keep the focus on myself? So, here I am doing that. Hope you are doing well today, sending a hug! |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 3, 2018 18:23:08 GMT
Thank you, kristyrose! Hugs are needed lately due to some challenges, so I appreciate it  |
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