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Post by robnew on May 11, 2017 0:09:59 GMT
Having (admittedly reluctantly) reconciled myself to the fact that getting back with my ex is likely impossible, and in any case futile, my mind is now clearer, and so it's now dawned on me that I'll likely have another situation to face. That being that when she moved out, she chose to move less than 5 minutes away, and so it's inevitable I'll run into her at some point, and would like any heads up on how to make that as least awkward as possible.
I have my own thoughts, and some advice from others, but it all largely depends on a best guess as to the situation at hand. As such, I have a question regarding the difference between feelings of intimacy and being smothered, and that of rejection/abandonment, as it may help. I get that the default reaction is to bolt in the face of either, but am curious if the feelings behind it differ, depending on which it was.
I've posted the whole story elsewhere, but briefly, whilst I'm sure my initial break up with my ex was motivated by a need to run, it seemed to be short lived. From what she said afterwards, I think it was largely triggered by a fear of potential rejection, rather than fear of intimacy. She moved out, and for no good reason moved very close by, and was quick to re initiate contact, and even bring up potential reconciliation. So it appears, at least initially, that she knew her decision was impulsive, and was leaving the door open.
Being aware not to pressurise her, I didn't go overboard in my desire to reconcile, and said we could take things slowly, and that I'd respect and understand it if she felt she couldn't. It seemed, rather than appearing appreciative of my lack of pressure, she was a little impatient with it at times. That said, when I tried to move things forward she'd back off, and yet when I said I'd accept it if she didn't want the same, she'd quickly say that wasn't the case, and was just confused, and was reluctant to close the door.
It was ultimately only the pressures of work and exams that caused her to suddenly pull away sharply, as things were on really good terms prior to that. The silence and ignoring only came when I responded to her withdrawal by saying that I'd give her space, which made her angry. Given that I never hassled her to change her mind, and only said I wanted to reconcile, and that I said I'd accept if she didn't want to, would that likely have led to her feeling concerned about rejection? Would her agitation at my offer of giving her space have merely been annoyance as she was distancing anyway, or misinterpreted as me deciding not to simply back off, but give up, and thus further rejection?
I ask because I try to avoid rushing to apply labels inappropriately, as tempting as it may be. And so, whilst I know that her abandonment fears played a part, there were other, normal factors too. For example, apart from a little hesitance and uncertainty, she was making steps to reconcile, without any pressure from me, and so was not being avoidant at all as far as the relationship was concerned and, if anything seemed to want me to push a little harder at times. In fact, confusion and uncertainty is exactly what I'd expect from anyone, in the face of a slow and cautious approach from me. Perhaps I was just as guilty of inadvertently giving mixed signals, by automatically assuming avoidance was the main/only issue, and treading too carefully?
It was eventually only external factors, such as work and exams that resulted in the big push away, and that is how anyone might act, avoidant or not, if they were in such a position. So, whilst there's no doubt that she has very strong avoidant traits, is it possible I assumed they played more of a role than they actually did? Not that it makes much difference to where things are now. However, given that I'll likely run into her at some point, it would help to know how best to handle that, as I'd rather it was no more awkward than it need be.
In a normal relationship that's easy. I have enough experience to know that when one ends as a result of an argument, with feelings still intact, there's an initial period of to and fro, which either results in a quick resolution, or another blow up and/or withdrawal. In the majority of cases, after leaving the other person to cool down a bit, they eventually reach out again, but it's almost always best to leave it to them.
That's where I am now. However, it would obviously make things easier, and much less awkward, if there was some contact prior to any possible bumping into each other. Ordinarily I'd leave it to her to make contact if ever she wants to, and it's the advice I've been given, which I agree with, whether avoidance is the issue or not. My issue though is, if avoidance wasn't the key issue, and she does in fact cool down, then it will certainly play a part in her ability to reach out, which she likely won't if rejection is her main fear. Having spoken to some other avoidants, it's also been suggested that I do reach out occasionally, if only to let her know it would be welcomed, but not expected or an obligation, so she feels safe to do so if ever she wants.
So I guess my question is, from what I've written, is it likely that any avoidance on her part is due to fear of intimacy/smothering, or fear of rejection? Would any reaching out on my part be received differently, depending on what the underlying fear was? If so and it's the former, then I'd imagine it's straightforward, and any contact on my part, would serve no useful purpose, and would likely only have a negative effect. If the latter though, it might make any future crossing of paths a little easier, as long as it's done right. That in itself is also hard, and so it would also help to know how I could do that in a way that was sincere and couldn't be misinterpreted negatively.
It's a tough call, as I don't wish to upset her by either making unwelcome contact, or appearing to just dismiss her, as there was never any bad feeling in the break up. We always got on really well, she was largely affectionate, if a little guarded, and neither of us have wronged the other in any way, and we've both acted in a kind, friendly and respectful way towards each other since we broke up. The awkwardness that exists now, is solely because she pulled away and went silent, without explanation, and my subsequent offer to give her space. As such, whilst friendship may not be realistic, it would be nice to at least overcome that awkwardness if possible, for the times we might run into each other.
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 12, 2017 3:47:58 GMT
So I guess my question is, from what I've written, is it likely that any avoidance on her part is due to fear of intimacy/smothering, or fear of rejection? Would any reaching out on my part be received differently, depending on what the underlying fear was? ... it would also help to know how I could do that in a way that was sincere and couldn't be misinterpreted negatively. As such, whilst friendship may not be realistic, it would be nice to at least overcome that awkwardness if possible, for the times we might run into each other. Robnew, I think along the way I have read all your posts on this forum, and you impress me as very rational and logical. So I'm going to try to appeal to your rational side. And forgive me for being blunt. Why are you investing so much time on trying to strategize your future interactions? And on planning how best to deal with this woman if and when you happen to bump into her? I hear that you are hoping to avoid any "awkwardness". I know you are likely hurt from her sudden withdrawal, moving out, etc. I get all that. But you are trying to control and normalize an interaction that (on her part) is being governed by a disorder or attachment problem that inevitably makes all the normal rules obsolete. Whether her avoidance was intimacy-based, or rejection-based, is moot. Because whatever influenced her weeks / months ago may have no impact on how she responds if you cross paths in the future. She is Avoidant, so all bets are off. Besides, it's mighty hard (read: impossible) to predict anyone's reaction to anything, disordered or not, since humans are complex creatures at the best of times. You've done a great job of reconciling yourself to the fact that the relationship has ended, though not of your own volition. Extend that same rationality and objectivity to your extensive ruminating over potential future encounters. Try to come to terms with the fact that you cannot and will not be able to predict, influence, control, or anticipate what happens if you ever run into her again. To reconcile yourself with that conclusion would be a healthy next step, Robnew. It will also free up a lot of your headspace, and leave you open to finding better uses for your time, I think. |
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 12, 2017 14:01:11 GMT
In response to this passage you wrote above: >>The silence and ignoring only came when I responded to her withdrawal by saying that I'd give her space, which made her angry. Given that I never hassled her to change her mind, and only said I wanted to reconcile, and that I said I'd accept if she didn't want to, would that likely have led to her feeling concerned about rejection? Would her agitation at my offer of giving her space have merely been annoyance as she was distancing anyway, or misinterpreted as me deciding not to simply back off, but give up, and thus further rejection?<< Robnew, try not to spend time micro-analyzing the interactions to see how / whether they may have played out differently, or whether you could have done something differently to change the outcome. This is a futile and crazy-making exercise. See: www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/coulda-woulda-shoulda-could-my-relationship-have-been-different/Great stuff on that blog, by the way. Check it out. |
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Post by robnew on May 12, 2017 15:55:17 GMT
Haha, thanks again HowPredictable1, I love your directness and pragmatic stance.
Since writing that post I've come to a similar conclusion. That being, any avoidance issues, whether they play a part or not, are in many ways meaningless. Ironically, it was probably my directness, and not walking on eggshells, or tip toeing around things that made things work when they did, and then trying to over analyse and adjust to things, after we'd split up, that made things worse. So, whilst I appreciate that awareness is one thing, I now agree that trying to contort oneself around it is pointless. I don't always agree that rules are obsolete though, just perhaps upside down sometimes, but accept you have to be in a position to apply them, which I'm not.
It's funny, as I can also see that we're all "crazy" in our own ways. Whilst I may bemoan the dramatic push/pull behaviours of another, I'm not blind to how I'm pushed and pulled by my own feelings, and equally have little control of them. As such, whilst I'm certain of what I want, one day I think to hell with it, and there's nothing I can do about it, and on another I wonder otherwise. So yes, whilst I am reconciled to things, and am dating and moving on, I'd be dishonest to say I wouldn't want things to work out if the opportunity arose. But then again I'm sure you knew that already.
I'm also a victim of my own nature, and have always felt it was my responsibility to make things happen, rather than sit back and just hope. In that sense, whilst one person's nature may be to run and withdraw from doubts, challenges and uncertainty, mine is to face them, so perhaps that's my own flaw or dysfunction.
So, maybe all this is just my own way of moving on, as it really does help to bat it back and forth, and getting another's perspective, rather than trying to internalise it all.
I've found that booze works pretty well too:)
Ultimately though, I do realise that all I can do is be myself, get on with things, and whatever may or may not happen, happens, and that there's nothing I can do to influence that.
So thank you again, and thanks for the link.
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 12, 2017 19:40:37 GMT
It's funny, as I can also see that we're all "crazy" in our own ways. Whilst I may bemoan the dramatic push/pull behaviours of another, I'm not blind to how I'm pushed and pulled by my own feelings, and equally have little control of them. It's funny, I was thinking this exact same thing earlier today. I can accept that my Ex has his issues, and that his actions are the product of them. But I can't resist making them "personal" to me, or something that he did TO me. The fact that he hasn't reached out since our breakup is (in my little world) is a personal affront, and diverts me from getting validation. I don't want him back.... but I want him to try. In my little world, everything is about me, me, me. So he's exactly as incapable of behaving differently, as I am in reading his behavior as anything but an Ego blow. Bottom line: We all have our issues and baggage.... some more than others, that's all. |
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 12, 2017 20:11:30 GMT
I'm also a victim of my own nature, and have always felt it was my responsibility to make things happen, rather than sit back and just hope. In that sense, whilst one person's nature may be to run and withdraw from doubts, challenges and uncertainty, mine is to face them, so perhaps that's my own flaw or dysfunction. Again, very insightful of you. This is called having Control Issues (and I struggle with this also, I'm Type A, control freak, Can-Do, Make-it-Happen type, and work in an aggressive profession, etc etc). We are trying to control the uncontrollable, Robnew. But people and relationships don't work like that. There's lots of good stuff on that same blog, about that, too. |
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Post by robnew on May 13, 2017 13:30:46 GMT
But that's normal to take things personally, as we base things around our own personal feelings. So it is me, me, me, and that's natural. Equally we're all a product of our own issues, and will act accordingly.
It's interesting to note though that you say you don't want him back, but that you want him to try as, by your own admission and understanding of how rapidly your feelings might change, there may equally be times when you don't want to try, or that you do want him back.
In some regards then, I'd disagree with "not being able to control the (seemingly) uncontrollable", even, or perhaps especially, when it comes to something as complex as emotions.
For example, when faced with someone overly needy, or clingy, your instinct might be to be put off, and run. In that sense, albeit unwittingly and negatively, they have controlled your emotions. Similarly, you may be drawn to a more aloof attitude, or even annoyed when someone doesn't try, and so again your emotions have been in some ways controlled. Of course that's all just accidental cause and effect, but it's an understanding of these reactions to different stimuli, and ways of communicating, that are often the basis for therapy and relationship guidance.
I guess it's why I do tend to overanalyse things, so that I don't just understand why I might do something, but what my motivations and ultimate goals are behind them.
For example, no contact is often the advice given at the time of a break up, and it has its merits. On the one hand it gives both parties some space to cool down and decide what they want, and on the other it provides the opportunity to heal and move on.
However, it often results in the situation you're now facing. For whatever reasons, at least one party (you), would like some contact. It's possible, likely even that both of you do. However, pride, ego, and/or a sense of entitlement are preventing that. Behind that though is probably one more emotion, and that is fear. Fear that if you're the one to reach out, you won't get the response you want.
That's one reason I overanalyse and bat things back and forth. On the one hand I appreciate that no contact is my best and only course. However, I need to be sure of my reasons. If it's to truly let go and move on, then fine. But if not then I need to be certain of what I do. If it's to let her cool down and come to me if she so chooses, then that's also fine, but if it's simply out of fear on my part, because I may hear what I don't want, then that's not so good, as inaction is just as likely to not only fulfil that fear, but prolong the process of dealing with it.
So yes, it may be about control issues, but less in a control freak kind of way, and more in being able to at least influence my own outcomes, and have better control of my own situation, whatever those outcomes may be.
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 13, 2017 19:08:31 GMT
Hi Robnew,
I don't think you and I differ overall, but maybe it's a question of "levels" of behavior that can and cannot be controlled.
For the record, you could say that I was the one who ended it with the Avoidant, after plotting to do so for a very long time. I actually orchestrated it to make it his idea. As the more insecure of two Avoidants, the relationship was challenging and very unfulfilling to me and I wanted out. So at its worst, the parting could be considered mutual. He did not unexpectedly leave me in the traditional sense and I can assure you I do not want him back in the least.
But what I find myself wanting post-breakup, is for him to reach out and try to contact me. *But it's just so I can ignore him.* It's a simple desire for validation, for a feeling that I'm "special" (particularly if it comes from someone who is hampered with attachment issues in the first place). I struggle with this after every relationship ends, even though I have no desire to reconcile whatsoever.
These feelings of mine come from my own Ego and narcissistically-driven needs. I cannot control these, I cannot rationalize my way out of them. As with my Avoidance traits, they are born of a long and tortured set of experiences in childhood, and the best I can do is identify them.
The other impetuses you mention, which we can call "emotions", are indeed more amenable to being identified and controlled. I agree with you. They shift like the sand (and in my case include the desire to run after feeling encroached upon by more insecure partners). Those are the kinds of emotions that therapy often targets, since the other type (Attachment disorders, narcissism, etc.) are virtually impossible to change except with years of hard work and entrenched resolve to do so.
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 13, 2017 19:14:27 GMT
So yes, it may be about control issues, but less in a control freak kind of way, and more in being able to at least influence my own outcomes, and have better control of my own situation, whatever those outcomes may be. On this point: You make a compelling argument, but beware the level of investment you make in learning about the disorder, identifying her particular issues, and strategizing to "help" her overcome them.
Former partners of disordered people (whether Avoidant or otherwise) tend to get sucked down into a vortex of reading, learning, fixing. I'm not saying this is you, but I am saying it's easy to get to that point and it's something to be aware of.
Some of it may be simply out of intellectual curiosity. But if you find yourself engaging in a lot of "what ifs" (e.g. your post on whether her disappearance was engulfment or rejection-based), coupled with voracious reading on the disorder and how it may be "managed" to the point where a future relationship might be possible, then you might be drifting into Control Issue territory, rather than "controlling your own situation."
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Post by annieb on May 13, 2017 19:35:25 GMT
What an interesting discussion. I agree with HowPredictable1 that control issues and wanting to find answers are kind of two sides of the same coin, but they are both attempts to control our own feelings. To feel ok. A big hurdle for us is to let go of the outcome and detach. As rewarding learning is, there needs to be a counterbalance, where we can let go of the fear of not knowing. I find that it's a very masculine and in many ways positive energy to understand, to learn and to control, it's what makes us better at everything else. It makes us better at our jobs. But in relationships, we have to let go of that and really just go with the flow. And as much as we want to find the answers, and put everything in a box, we can not. We can use this research to be compassionate to one another and to smart and to have a better understanding of ourselves and others, but we have to let nature and chemistry, and chance do their mysterious thing, and just look at it in wonderment.
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Post by robnew on May 13, 2017 20:11:38 GMT
You're absolutely right, in that whilst you can "push" things in a certain direction, you can't control the levels.
What I find fascinating, is that certain behaviours, deliberate or otherwise, can generate attraction. However, add avoidance, and abandonment fears to the mix, and that can become self defeating, as the more attraction felt/generated, the greater the fear/anxiety, and thus a tendency to run from than towards. It's therefore interesting to me on many levels.
May I ask, is your desire to not want him back solely because of your fears/insecurities, or are there other reasons you know it's not a suitable relationship?
I agree with you about being wary of the levels of investment, and in that sense it's merely intellectual curiosity. From a relationship point of view, I'm a firm believer in just being myself, and either that works for someone or it doesn't. In most ways that's how it was, and for the most part it worked pretty well. Ironically it came to an end due to some personal issues my end, that I've not gone into. Whilst there were minor drifts anyway, they were rare and always resolved very easily.
That said, whilst I think things can only work by being yourself, and not trying to overly accommodate another persons issues, it doesn't hurt to be aware of them, or pay greater attention to their impact when things go wrong, and you want to get them back on track. So, I agree that understanding can't provide a blueprint for a happy relationship, it can be a useful tool for crisis management.
annieb, I agree that whilst there is a need to understand things, there's also a lot of sense in just letting go. One can't control another, nor an outcome, and only one's response to it.
As a result, I suppose my response, and ease of handling something, is helped by understanding something deeply enough to be sure that I've done all I can do. Once I'm certain of that, then I'm pretty outcome independent and, if not entirely happy, am able to accept whatever it may be. If that makes sense?
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 13, 2017 22:00:17 GMT
May I ask, is your desire to not want him back solely because of your fears/insecurities, or are there other reasons you know it's not a suitable relationship? I agree, annieB, this is an interesting discussion and I'm glad you have added to it. I will add my thoughts on both your post and Robnew's later. But for now, to address this question above in a separate reply:
I mentioned in a prior post that my dating history includes not one but two NPD (one diagnosed, one suspected) and a guy with BPD (diagnosed). Those were a decade ago and I had moved on after some fairly excruciating self-discovery, including work on my Family of Origin issues.
With this latest relationship, I was on the lookout for Cluster B types .... but completely overlooked the possibility that there might be Attachment issues (both mine, and his). When the distancing/pursuit dynamic started to become more obvious, I started doing some reading and realized were deep in an Avoidant Attachment dance. Talk about an "Aha!" moment. It had never occurred to me that -- being Avoidant myself -- I might find someone even MORE Avoidant, because my past experience (apart from the famous Cluster B guys) involved finding Insecure types.
So I'm somewhat kicking myself for being so blindsided, but I have zero interest in reconciling. The silver lining is simply that I learned from this latest experience, but I have no interests in resuscitating it, or repeating it with someone new.
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Post by robnew on May 13, 2017 22:20:42 GMT
Thanks, that's interesting.
So do you think you have a "type" or that ultimately they're all doomed relationships, and it's just that some are more doomed on your terms than others?
Hope you don't mind the question.
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Post by HowPredictable1 on May 14, 2017 14:04:25 GMT
What I find fascinating, is that certain behaviours, deliberate or otherwise, can generate attraction. However, add avoidance, and abandonment fears to the mix, and that can become self defeating, as the more attraction felt/generated, the greater the fear/anxiety, and thus a tendency to run from than towards. It's therefore interesting to me on many levels. So this is really the crux of things, Robnew. And my answer here, will simultaneously address your other question, about whether I have a "type".
Agreed: Behavior can generate attraction. But so can disorders. I am inexorably drawn to those who are also afflicted with disorders that complement or mesh with my own. So while I don't have a physical type, I am repeatedly, inexplicably drawn to people who are Cluster B (on the more severe end) or merely intimacy-challenged (on the lower end). If you put me in a room with 200 men, I can find the disordered ones with laser-like precision.
If you are curious as to why, read any of the works of Harville Hendrix for starters. It's sort of the same theory behind the theory that Avoidants attract Insecures, except it's writ large to extend to many other personality characteristics and traits.
AnnieB, your comment about needing to let go of control in a relationship is an important one. But on your point about our each trying to control our emotions, I would add that the distinction I made between various "levels" of behavior/emotions is really key. If I feel garden-variety sad, I can do things to get my mind off it, exercise to get endorphins, drink alcohol... whatever. But if I have an attachment disorder that convolutes reality and makes me see intimacy as a threat, if I feel irrationally smothered by even the simplest of close human interactions, and if I feel outright panic and a need to flee... then there's little control to be exercised.
So you are right, as a partner (or former partner) of someone who struggles, letting go of the desire to control the outcome is very fundamental.
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Post by robnew on May 14, 2017 18:08:48 GMT
Well I suppose that's what I'd expect, as I tend not to separate behaviours from disorders, and see such "disorders" as merely extreme representations of the behaviours most people exhibit. I guess largely due to the more extreme conditions that gave rise to any such disorder.
I think many people are drawn to the unavailability of some, hence the eternal romantic hero being a flawed, and not quite available man. Whilst the more "anxious" nice guy is attracted to the heroine, and bewildered as to why his niceness is always spurned by her, in favour of someone more dismissive and seemingly uncaring.
In the end, how or whether such behaviour is declared disordered comes down to levels of extreme.
At least that's how I see it, in my own limited way.
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