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Post by alexandra on Dec 22, 2018 5:31:38 GMT
In your opinion, alexandra, do you think it's in a way "necessary" to use someone who triggers your insecure attachment (i.e. someone you're attracted to) in order to tackle it? Or is it best to turn your back and find someone secure? I'm currently leaning towards the former because I am not attracted to secure people and thus they wouldn't really trigger much in me for me to work through my problems the way that I am now. But I want to hear what you think. It's a good question, and I don't have a simple answer. I think it depends on why the other person triggers you. If the person triggers you because they are inconsiderate or abusive (even if it's because of their own issues, but they're consistently taking them out / projecting them on you), drop them. That just gets toxic. But if the person triggers you for reasons that seem almost unreasonable... like, maybe someone you're dating does something that you absolutely wouldn't care about if a friend did it but once it's a romantic interest you are totally triggered by it... or maybe you get really jealous when the person has given you no reason to feel insecure... or maybe you get upset whenever someone you're close to travels and feel separation anxiety... I'm trying to come up with examples where someone is actually treating you fairly but you're sort of triggering yourself due to past issues unrelated to the person you're reacting to -- these are the ones you might want to stay with and learn from and figure out how to manage those triggers on your own rather than dropping those people out of your life.
I have a mix of people of all styles in my life, and a mix of whether or not I'm securely attached to them. That means I do have some good, solid examples of people who I have known for years and years and years who haven't abandoned me or intentionally tried to hurt me, and will try to be there for me if I need it even if they aren't always capable of it (because maybe we're securely attached but they are DA or they are AP or whatever). So I do know what good relationships look like, though for most of my life, a specific type of emotionally abusive dynamic also felt familiar (which was not due to my parents -- went further back in the generations). That made me totally attracted to insecurely attached avoidants for like almost 20 years. Seriously.
I repeated that AP/DA dynamic so much, and kept getting hurt, and kept not moving forward pretty much at all. It was more about trying to find someone less DA but also trying to manage down my relationship anxiety and sincerely be more of a "cool girl" in dating because it just seemed more socially acceptable in dating. That's not actually healing anything. So, being repeatedly and endlessly triggered by DA romantic interests didn't help at all.
What helped me the most was dating two FAs, one of whom I was secure with for probably the first 6 months of our serious relationship (until he started settling in and deactivating, which confused the hell out of me). Because there had been times that it wasn't push/pull, I did develop strong non-triggered feelings for them, which made me really, really want to understand what was going on. They also caused me an enormous amount of pain, which spurred my eventual self-work and figuring out my triggers for real. Being around them got me more secure faster, but it's because wanting to understand them and our dynamic helped me understand that other people didn't necessarily view relationships the same way I did, which helped me rethink what a healthier relationship should look like -- by thinking about aspects and different viewpoints which might be better than what I had, and picking and choosing what actually made more sense to me. Not blanket acceptance that I was "wrong" and changing myself into something else, just reconsidering my own viewpoints against new information. And again, this was still a long process. It took me two and a half years to figure out wtf was up with the second FA. You'd think I'd have learned more in round one (I'm still friends with the first one, though, and he doesn't trigger me anymore because now I'm secure) 
So I don't think that dating a secure and avoiding ever feeling triggered fixes the underlying attachment issue. However, it does calm your nervous system enough that maybe having the stability would give you enough freedom and leeway to explore healthier ways of doing things. That's one tactic that may work for some people. While that in itself didn't work for me (though my romantic relationships were almost never with secures), it was very important I experience secure attachments to people so that I knew the triggering was not necessarily normal and there were easier and less stressful ways of doing things. But I guess for me, I needed the pain in order to explore what needed to be fixed and motivate myself to make the changes.
THAT being said, @leavethelighton is right, it seems you know what your triggers feel like at this point, and you don't have to keep subjecting yourself to it over and over to explore it at this point. You can walk away and think about your past and your life and dig deeper into yourself without continuing to be around people who trigger you, because it sounds like you're at a point in your process that you have enough awareness to do it on your own / with a therapist.
In regards to you not being attracted to secure people right now, that will actually very likely change the more you heal. I was never attracted to secure people until embarrassingly recently, all things considered, but it really came with the healing and getting closer and closer to earning secure. I had zero faith in my taste in men until this year! Now I can see people better for who they are and what their issues are instead of getting lost in triggers, and I trust myself at last. You don't have to force anything if you're not ready yet.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 22, 2018 5:41:29 GMT
Oh, and I don't want to forget to mention that the biggest problem with healing while dating someone else insecure is that, if they're not on the growth path with you, you will end up outgrowing them and the relationship will fail... which is, of course, quite painful.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 4:42:13 GMT
I think you guys are right. You have convinced me. It's time for me to move forward. Thanks alexandra, as usual, for your detailed insight. I needed the pain in order to explore what needed to be fixed and motivate myself to make the changes. I'm like this too, I want to go where it hurts to see what I need to see. But past a certain point, it just becomes unnecessary suffering. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2018 20:38:10 GMT
Just an update.
Ugh, the more I see him, the closer we get. So I like him more. And he likes me more. But he started disappearing again precisely because of that. I finally see it now. His limitations. And how much I've surpassed him. I don't feel the need to run. I get uncomfortable and quiet but I can sit with it.
He opened up a lot more last time I saw him, and then he shut down towards the end of the day. I don't know why I expected more, I guess I'm human... and it's normal to want more.
I'm very sad because I can see him trying and making progress. But ultimately, it is too slow for me. That's the unfortunate truth. I can't deny it anymore. I don't think he knows that it hurts me when he disappears only to show up again, picking up where we left off.
I don't want to be strung along. No matter the reasons WHY he does what he does, it's just not enough. I thought at the end of the day, that as long as we're both willing to work through it, we can "get ready" slowly, with each other. And on some level, I'd still be willing to do that only if he put in more effort (although, more like than not, he's putting in a ton of effort, but he's so far behind that it takes much longer to see the results).
But as it stands, that would require me to put my life on hold and cater to him. I'm not going to do that. I refuse. I need to get away from him completely. It's really disappointing. Because he knows what it would require for me to stay, but he has so much trouble meeting the basics, it's like teaching an adult how to walk; leading by example.
Looking back... there is so little substance to all of this that I feel like I've been fooling myself all along, living in beautifully crafted visions and theories, and ignoring the elephant in the room. Here's to another failed "relationship". Exhausting. I give up. And on I go.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 28, 2018 20:44:28 GMT
@blacksnow, it's an enormous step forward that you don't have the knee jerk urge to run! And the reasons you're talking about leaving are well thought out and make sense. But it sounds like you haven't told him it hurts you when he disappears? What have you told him you're looking for and you need? While it sounds unlikely to work out, for the reasons you've shared here (moving at different speeds), you should make sure you've really communicated your needs with him and give him the chance to step up or step out instead of making the decision for him. I believe that's the most secure way to handle this, and then walk if he can't give those things to you.
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Post by ocarina on Dec 28, 2018 23:17:59 GMT
Just an update. Ugh, the more I see him, the closer we get. So I like him more. And he likes me more. But he started disappearing again precisely because of that. I finally see it now. His limitations. And how much I've surpassed him. I don't feel the need to run. I get uncomfortable and quiet but I can sit with it. He opened up a lot more last time I saw him, and then he shut down towards the end of the day. I don't know why I expected more, I guess I'm human... and it's normal to want more. I'm very sad because I can see him trying and making progress. But ultimately, it is too slow for me. That's the unfortunate truth. I can't deny it anymore. I don't think he knows that it hurts me when he disappears only to show up again, picking up where we left off. I don't want to be strung along. No matter the reasons WHY he does what he does, it's just not enough. I thought at the end of the day, that as long as we're both willing to work through it, we can "get ready" slowly, with each other. And on some level, I'd still be willing to do that only if he put in more effort (although, more like than not, he's putting in a ton of effort, but he's so far behind that it takes much longer to see the results). But as it stands, that would require me to put my life on hold and cater to him. I'm not going to do that. I refuse. I need to get away from him completely. It's really disappointing. Because he knows what it would require for me to stay, but he has so much trouble meeting the basics, it's like teaching an adult how to walk; leading by example. Looking back... there is so little substance to all of this that I feel like I've been fooling myself all along, living in beautifully crafted visions and theories, and ignoring the elephant in the room. Here's to another failed "relationship". Exhausting. I give up. And on I go. @blacksnow - I could have written this a little while ago - as an avoidant paired longterm with someone of similar attachment style. Bravo to you for having done the work to recognise and admit that you need more. Both being willing to work on it sadly doesn't always equate to a mutually healthy relationship.
Nobody should put their life on hold and pretzel themselves for someone else. It just doesn't work and leads down the road to all kinds of unhappiness, unmet needs and resentment which impacts both partners.
It sounds as though you've recognised your own patterns and fought hard to change things your end and that you've uncovered your own feelings along the way - so maybe rather than fooling yourself, infact you've really outgrown the pairing in a painful but kind of marvellous way. Avoidants do this - settle for dubious intimacy in order to avoid the real deal, kudos to you for the realisation of where you are at now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2018 2:20:49 GMT
Thanks alexandra and ocarina. A relative of mine knows about all this, and I told them just yesterday that it might not work out between me and him. Today it dawned on me... it's FULLY not working between me and him. Who am I kidding? I actually cried to be honest when I realized that I had been avoiding something all along by being a part of this dynamic. It's not simply that I'm avoiding the real deal (because obviously I am), it's that I'm avoiding myself. The pattern with me and other avoidants: I seem to go for the smart, stoic careerists. I'm not sure why they go for me (they're the ones approaching, like excuse me? lol) but it's probably because I come off as Miss Independent and they see me as a challenge. This pattern is telling me something and I know what it is. So I confess here: I'm avoiding my own career and taking charge of my life. I know exactly what I want but I'm too scared to put myself out there and fail — I will take it as evidence that I can't get what I want and that I'm just not good enough. But... that's just not true. And suddenly now, I am okay. I wonder why it's so easy for me to get over "us". I'm not deactivating or anything. But I believe it's because there is little legitimate foundation to my relationship with him. I can see that clearly now. It's so obvious. To get back to the main topic: I still believe two avoidants can make it work. But the circumstances have to be "just so" (both willing, both pretty self aware, both contributing, both wanting the same thing). And I think that is pretty rare. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 29, 2018 4:20:48 GMT
The pattern with me and other avoidants: I seem to go for the smart, stoic careerists. I'm not sure why they go for me (they're the ones approaching, like excuse me? lol) but it's probably because I come off as Miss Independent and they see me as a challenge.. This avoidant has no desire to change anyone. I have respect for who people are and their independence. I respect independence. It is attractive to me. It nice to be wanted, sure, but full on dependence is really hard work. This is 2018, where we are supposed to be equal. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2018 5:24:48 GMT
This avoidant has no desire to change anyone. I have respect for who people are and their independence. I respect independence. It is attractive to me. It nice to be wanted, sure, but full on dependence is really hard work. This is 2018, where we are supposed to be equal. Spoken like a true avoidant. lol (I'm joking) I'm talking about Miss I-Don't-Need-Anyone-and-No-One's-Good-Enough-For-Me Independent. That's my whole life. I prop myself up superficially through traits like attractiveness, intelligence, humor (I hide behind humor so much), no commitment, no kids, no marriage, false intimacy, etc. I do the push-pull with every DA I'm interested in. But I'm not only avoidant. That probably gives them hope, my other side. The side where I do try to meet their needs (until I get fed up and do a 180), where I reciprocate, listen to their problems, am generally more communicative and expressive, try to get them to meet my needs without being direct (i.e. being controlling), etc. Full on dependence is crappy too and a thing of the past. Interdependence is the middle ground. I've only just admitted to myself that's what I want. I cringed when I typed that, admittedly. Once upon a time I saw partnerships as a weakness, but really I was lying to myself because I didn't want to face my issues. I was too "cool" for that. I used to think being in a relationship meant losing myself. I know that's not true now. A good relationship allows you to be more of yourself. So 'independence' is actually one of the main ingredients. I got a slight taste of this in the current dynamic, because I solved just enough of my issues and created a bit of room for both of us to be ourselves AND help each other, not out of obligation. It was amazing. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 29, 2018 8:40:10 GMT
I actually cried to be honest when I realized that I had been avoiding something all along by being a part of this dynamic. It's not simply that I'm avoiding the real deal (because obviously I am), it's that I'm avoiding myself. The pattern with me and other avoidants: I seem to go for the smart, stoic careerists. I'm not sure why they go for me (they're the ones approaching, like excuse me? lol) but it's probably because I come off as Miss Independent and they see me as a challenge. This pattern is telling me something and I know what it is. So I confess here: I'm avoiding my own career and taking charge of my life. I know exactly what I want but I'm too scared to put myself out there and fail — I will take it as evidence that I can't get what I want and that I'm just not good enough. But... that's just not true. And suddenly now, I am okay. I wonder why it's so easy for me to get over "us". I'm not deactivating or anything.
@blacksnow, this is great. It's really huge! Breaking the barrier of being able to see your issues clearly enough that you can make the choice whether or not to face them is so. Much. Progress!
The last few months, I've been coming to the conclusion that the core of insecure attachment and why it inevitably hurts other people (as well as yourself) is because it throws up so many layers and defense mechanisms that you actually don't know yourself well at all. Maybe you're avoiding your issues, maybe you can't see them because there's too many layers in the way (I feel like the latter is more often the case for APs). If you're disconnected from yourself and your needs, or you on some level fear yourself and your needs, that can very easily manifest as acting in dysfunctional ways. My FA ex avoids himself totally and is still choosing to stay in his false projected persona, which is painful for everyone (mostly him) but less scary to him than actually figuring out who he is. And that's not your fault, things happened when you were a kid to make that behavioral pattern make sense for you. But it sounds like you're at the point where you're ready to at least examine this if not all out tackle it. This is an accomplishment in itself that you should feel good about. Not everyone gets there.
I advocate all over these boards, especially for insecure types on the anxious side (AP/FA), to figure out what makes you feel accomplished or good about yourself, no matter how small, and take some time out to do those things, work on building self-esteem, and challenge yourself for a while (whether that's doing new things or something else). It was really hard for me to shift my attachment style until I did that, because I felt too uncertain about myself to figure out what I really needed and wanted and let a positive talktrack/narrative sink in. It was very, very hard to not be a perfectionist and to fail, because I was lacking self-acceptance due to some dynamics I grew up around. One of the things I did to accomplish this, by the way, was to really take charge of my career in a new way. Before I did so, however, I challenged myself in smaller ways over the course of a few months, building up to it.
You've had a lot of epiphanies and, it sounds like, real growth since you started posting. Keep up the hard work. I think you're feeling like getting over your current situation will be easier because you can see the truth now. But it's still an uphill battle to train yourself to listen to it. "I will take it as evidence that I can't get what I want and that I'm just not good enough." -- even if you fail, that's not what failure means, so it's good you recognize this is not true. I suspect that de-personalizing failure is going to be an important step for you, too.
And I don't know that avoidants see you as a challenge rather than a fit. As you've been unavailable while fully insecure, you've probably kept "enough" distance once you start getting too close, and that's kept them comfortable enough to stick around. At least if you haven't gone full-on AP at them too early.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 5:56:57 GMT
alexandra I also feel like I'm progressing so fast, it's a bit surreal. Btw, he came back again today, clearly given up, as if he intuitively knew I was done and had moved on. I regret nothing. I feel liberated and a bit sad, for him... it's this weird lingering pity, like "I don't want him to live in misery" but what can I do. And I think you're right that it's because I see the truth. I came out of this mess with much stronger self-esteem than when I started, and it's usually the opposite. I like your idea that the reason avoidants see me as a fit is because I keep enough distance. The last few months, I've been coming to the conclusion that the core of insecure attachment and why it inevitably hurts other people (as well as yourself) is because it throws up so many layers and defense mechanisms that you actually don't know yourself well at all. Maybe you're avoiding your issues, maybe you can't see them because there's too many layers in the way (I feel like the latter is more often the case for APs). If you're disconnected from yourself and your needs, or you on some level fear yourself and your needs, that can very easily manifest as acting in dysfunctional ways. My FA ex avoids himself totally and is still choosing to stay in his false projected persona, which is painful for everyone (mostly him) but less scary to him than actually figuring out who he is. And that's not your fault, things happened when you were a kid to make that behavioral pattern make sense for you. But it sounds like you're at the point where you're ready to at least examine this if not all out tackle it. This is an accomplishment in itself that you should feel good about. Not everyone gets there. I think FA's have a fragmented identity. This is what I believe more and more now. So all those layers of insecurity, defenses, facades, etc. are just manifestations of the different and wounded parts of me. When I've done enough work on myself, they integrate and I can be more present, I feel the need to hide less, keep less "secrets" (read: inconsequential little things I've always been ashamed of), and be more authentic and ultimately less fearful + less avoidant... so, less fearful-avoidant, lol.
And yes, I think building self-esteem is THE one thing that will make anxious insecure types more secure. I remember only 2 years ago that I realized for the first time that I had needs. What a shock that was, true story. All of these issues as well as a lot of mental problems like depression, anxiety, etc. can be traced back to unmet psychological needs, IMO. They are all related.
Depersonalizing failure will be my next step. What a great what to put it, you've just given me the key, now I have to go find some locks to unlock. I'm pretty sure the things I'm going to do next will be full of failures and I'll have to learn to deal with it in a healthy way.
P.S. Ugh, I feel bad for him. Dammit. It's just too painful for our worlds to collide at this point so we have to go our separate ways. Sometimes I wish I could give people all this information so they can better themselves (not so I can be with him), but it just doesn't work that way. They have to get there on their own. If they ever do <-- that's what saddens me the most. It's as you said, not everyone gets there. And many of those who do, do so at their own pace. Outgrowing people doesn't feel all that great. How do I put this? It's almost like I'm saying "you're no good, I'm leaving you behind"... but the truth isn't that those people are no good, it's that they don't see the good in themselves.
That hit me deep.
And I wonder, how does this look on the other side? On my side, I think "I've outgrown this person/situation". What do you think the other person thinks when they have to let me go? Somehow I doubt they think along the same lines. But I have a hard time imagining what it could be.
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Post by leavethelighton on Dec 30, 2018 20:23:03 GMT
. . . How do I put this? It's almost like I'm saying "you're no good, I'm leaving you behind"... but the truth isn't that those people are no good, it's that they don't see the good in themselves. That hit me deep. And I wonder, how does this look on the other side? On my side, I think "I've outgrown this person/situation". What do you think the other person thinks when they have to let me go? Somehow I doubt they think along the same lines. But I have a hard time imagining what it could be. [/div][/quote] Probably what they think will radically differ depending on their attachment style and where in their life journey... but I'd also imagine the degree of wondering what they wonder is a reflection of ours. Also going no contact has little to do with the other person in a way. It's really about you and what you need, no reflection of the other person's qualities or worth. They can be wonderful, but if it isn't working and you aren't both going to put in the hard work to evolve past your mutual attachment challenges, then it isn't going to work. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 22:36:11 GMT
Probably what they think will radically differ depending on their attachment style and where in their life journey... but I'd also imagine the degree of wondering what they wonder is a reflection of ours. Correct. I just realized it this morning. Why do I keep wondering what he wonders? Now that it's over, my abandonment and rejection fears are flaring up. I noticed I started to think about what I "could've done" to salvage it (unhealthy). Then I switch back to focusing on what I learned (healthy). Then back onto him (unhealthy). Ad infinitum. Closure comes from within so I need to stay with myself rather than what he may or may not be thinking. Also going no contact has little to do with the other person in a way. It's really about you and what you need, no reflection of the other person's qualities or worth. They can be wonderful, but if it isn't working and you aren't both going to put in the hard work to evolve past your mutual attachment challenges, then it isn't going to work. Yeah, true. I'm projecting. Since I'm insecure, I thought that someone else moving on is like they're saying I'm not worthy, I'm unlovable, etc. Like they're leaving me behind because I'm a loser. And so I start feeling bad. Hey, who knows, I may have triggered the same reaction in him as well, about being unworthy and whatnot. But I don't need to pity him or think of him as miserable, I'm not actually saying that he's unworthy (I have thought it before, but that was due to my false superiority). That's his trigger to feel. I have my own to deal with. What the.. hell am I feeling right now? A weird sadness, mixed with liberation, mixed with emptiness, mixed with hope. I don't know what to do with myself at the moment. I have a headache. |
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