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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 18:42:24 GMT
Me (FA) and a DA guy have been "doing the dance" for almost a year. We're not in a relationship because he repelled me from the start by coming on too strong. But there's definitely a dynamic between us that I suspect would show up tenfold in an actual relationship. Overall, it seems to be working for the following reasons (in the spoiler):
- I work on my triggers consciously and force a change in the dynamic.
- He notices my new reactions, is triggered, reacts badly at first, then self reflects and corrects by changing his reactions as well, thereby changing himself. Rinse and repeat this feedback loop.
- It is therefore a hands off approach. I don't try to change him, I change myself. But he's tuned into me (and I to him) and follows along, not too far behind.
- He is goal oriented so when he has his eyes on something (me), he wants to make it work. So he keeps trying.
- We have a lot in common outside of our insecure attachment styles. I suspect we'd be awesome if it wasn't for our avoidance.
- I've remained unreachable all this time. Giving bits and pieces and becoming more available to him over time, depending on his behavior. He wants to 'crack' me so he tries all different things. Which leads me to the next reason:
- I reward good behavior and either mirror his bad behavior or dismiss him altogether, clearly giving up. He hates that, so he tries to be better. The "better" doesn't last too long, especially if it's a desperate attempt to keep me hooked, but looking back, the things he used to find terrifying (to the point he'd disappear for weeks) are now normal for him, creating space for a bigger and deeper set of behaviors to be worked on. And lastly:
- I can detect what he is ready for and what he isn't ready for (and vice versa, he's very observant of me). So the way I go about it is like: "okay, he has now behaved consistently good in this aspect, so he has earned my attention." I give him more attention. He does something crappy, I pull back a little and just let him be. He does something new that's good and positive, I respond positively in a new way, something small that says "I like this" and that gets through the cracks in his armor into his heart (I'm really good at this).
These are all the ingredients that make this recipe work even if it's a train wreck. The train somehow chugs along. So far I can conclude this: there is an obvious and tremendous change in him from when we first met. Instead of a cold robot, he is now warmer, more relaxed, more expressive, less avoidant. Me, I am more comfortable, less anxious, less avoidant, thicker skinned, less resentful and revengeful. As a metaphor, if he was an onion with 10 layers, the two outermost layers have been stripped off. I call this tremendous change because it is huge for a dismissive. I'm leading and he's following. It may one day stop, he may give up as I move on ahead. Some of the things I mentioned in the list above (6, 7, and 8) are unhealthy, and I keep changing them the healthier I get. I think when I change those, he will be left behind. Either that or he will surprise me and manage to catch up. What do you guys think? Can two avoidants unlearn their coping mechanisms and attach to each other more securely? Has there been a success story here?
Personally, I am a little attached to him but I definitely think it's mostly based on insecurity. And I can move on in days (hmm... or maybe a week or two at this point) if I tried hard enough. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 20:05:46 GMT
I was in a very similar situation years back. I still consider him the love of my life but we aren't in contact anymore.
We grew and learnt a lot from each other. I wanted to heal myself for him so I was the "leading" one, and by doing so I was paving the way for him- very similar to you, and he was gradually changing along with me.
The difference was that I was the one doing the chasing, he never gave me the reassurance(he fed my anxiety but kept avoidance away) when I became more "secure" it simply wasn't enough anymore. I found myself to be very lonely without true intimacy, support- everything being conditional. I wanted to stop dancing and have something real for once. He wasn't ready.
I believe it can be unlearned, I believe we would have worked out if we both were working together towards a mutual goal. We both were climbing a hill, we helped each other out a lot but we weren't climbing as a team.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 22:46:19 GMT
Thanks littleme. The difference was that I was the one doing the chasing, he never gave me the reassurance( he fed my anxiety but kept avoidance away) Do you mean you never got avoidant around him, implying that he wasn't initiating or responding with much 'intimacy' and/or making you feel uncomfortable, thereby not giving you reassurance that he wanted more? I never thought about it but that's a pretty good way to gauge the other person's... capacity? My avoidance has never been triggered to the point of disappearing, but it's been pretty close multiple times. The feeling that goes with that is always "he is trying to get 'inside' of me and take over, banging on doors he isn't allowed to enter". My go-to strategy in those times was to ignore and avoid him while in the same room anyway. Or just freeze up. I believe it can be unlearned, I believe we would have worked out if we both were working together towards a mutual goal. We both were climbing a hill, we helped each other out a lot but we weren't climbing as a team. I have decided I don't want to dance anymore. It's fun, but I want to be more "secure" and stop the unnecessary pain. So I'm going to try being more and more consistent/grounded instead of volatile and merely reacting to him, then face reality for what it is. If he falls way behind and isn't willing to go further, okay. If he still follows, well then... great. There is a fork on this road at this point. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 10, 2018 23:15:26 GMT
I'm going to try being more and more consistent/grounded instead of volatile and merely reacting to him. Perfect. I think this is very important when you're trying to grow. There are so many nervous system triggers involved in insecure attachment that if you're unaware, your behavior can be entirely autopilot reactions without you ever realizing it. I think it's very difficult to truly overcome this pattern just through awareness and grit because, again, you ultimately have to recondition your nervous system. But, if you start leaning into exploring what triggers you, how it makes you feel, why, how do you soothe it, what's behind it... and connect with yourself, I believe that's a step in the healing process that is going to start to allow an insecure to not just react and to instead grow more secure. Be patient with yourself through that process and the time it takes but I hope trying it helps you in some way (even if it doesn't change anything with this specific DA). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 0:48:53 GMT
Perfect. I think this is very important when you're trying to grow. There are so many nervous system triggers involved in insecure attachment that if you're unaware, your behavior can be entirely autopilot reactions without you ever realizing it. I think it's very difficult to truly overcome this pattern just through awareness and grit because, again, you ultimately have to recondition your nervous system. But, if you start leaning into exploring what triggers you, how it makes you feel, why, how do you soothe it, what's behind it... and connect with yourself, I believe that's a step in the healing process that is going to start to allow an insecure to not just react and to instead grow more secure. Be patient with yourself through that process and the time it takes but I hope trying it helps you in some way (even if it doesn't change anything with this specific DA). You're right about that. I recognize my triggers but I haven't gone deep enough with some of them. Since you said "how it makes you feel, why, how do you soothe it, what's behind it" etc. I went ahead and dismantled a major one for me using those questions, and I think I know what I have to do next time I see him. If it goes to shit, then I will lean towards it being his issue and our incompatibility. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 11, 2018 1:08:55 GMT
Perfect. I think this is very important when you're trying to grow. There are so many nervous system triggers involved in insecure attachment that if you're unaware, your behavior can be entirely autopilot reactions without you ever realizing it. I think it's very difficult to truly overcome this pattern just through awareness and grit because, again, you ultimately have to recondition your nervous system. But, if you start leaning into exploring what triggers you, how it makes you feel, why, how do you soothe it, what's behind it... and connect with yourself, I believe that's a step in the healing process that is going to start to allow an insecure to not just react and to instead grow more secure. Be patient with yourself through that process and the time it takes but I hope trying it helps you in some way (even if it doesn't change anything with this specific DA). You're right about that. I recognize my triggers but I haven't gone deep enough with some of them. Since you said "how it makes you feel, why, how do you soothe it, what's behind it" etc. I went ahead and dismantled a major one for me using those questions, and I think I know what I have to do next time I see him. If it goes to shit, then I will lean towards it being his issue and our incompatibility.
It took me a long time to realize it, but I eventually did figure out that every single time I could think of being triggered in the past, by family, friends, romantic relationships, whatever... it really, truly was due to a fear of abandonment. Every time! Classic AP.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 2:05:34 GMT
I feel afraid just thinking about bypassing this trigger and am already making excuses. But you are most likely right, that it's due to fear of abandonment.
I can do it.
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Post by gummydrop on Dec 11, 2018 3:52:39 GMT
It took me a long time to realize it, but I eventually did figure out that every single time I could think of being triggered in the past, by family, friends, romantic relationships, whatever... it really, truly was due to a fear of abandonment. Every time! Classic AP.
I think all insecure attachment comes down to fear of abandonment. Expressed differently of course- avoidant struggles with intimacy are about a falsely conditioned belief that nobody could love the avoidant for who they really are. The pushing away is just a coping mechanism against rejection/abandonment. Masters of hiding in plain sight but so lonely on the inside. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 11, 2018 7:44:50 GMT
It took me a long time to realize it, but I eventually did figure out that every single time I could think of being triggered in the past, by family, friends, romantic relationships, whatever... it really, truly was due to a fear of abandonment. Every time! Classic AP.
I think all insecure attachment comes down to fear of abandonment. Expressed differently of course- avoidant struggles with intimacy are about a falsely conditioned belief that nobody could love the avoidant for who they really are. The pushing away is just a coping mechanism against rejection/abandonment. Masters of hiding in plain sight but so lonely on the inside. That's right. I've read before that AP has a conscious fear of abandonment and unconscious fear of intimacy and avoidant has a conscious fear of intimacy (engulfment for them) but unconscious fear of abandonment. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 8:04:33 GMT
@blacksnow
He never directly acknowledged me, he broke his walls for me -he could be very vulnerable with me but he always made sure there was a distance between us. It didn't feel real enough so I could live in a safe fantasy world most of the time(when I was more FA). I deactivated whenever he suddenly started to be more attentive, to reciprocate - anything that would make it more real; later when I knew it won't last. I wanted him gone then and I always felt uneasy, even hostile when we were talking about me, even though I wanted "it".
One of the best memories I have with him is when I was having one of those thoughts, and he knocked on my "doors", I wasn't happy about that but he knocked again, I bit myself and let him come in. It felt really good.
Are you sure you aren't deactivating? What is he doing wrong?
Have you tried to communicate with him?
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Post by gummydrop on Dec 11, 2018 16:28:44 GMT
I think all insecure attachment comes down to fear of abandonment. Expressed differently of course- avoidant struggles with intimacy are about a falsely conditioned belief that nobody could love the avoidant for who they really are. The pushing away is just a coping mechanism against rejection/abandonment. Masters of hiding in plain sight but so lonely on the inside. That's right. I've read before that AP has a conscious fear of abandonment and unconscious fear of intimacy and avoidant has a conscious fear of intimacy (engulfment for them) but unconscious fear of abandonment. This is a gem of information. Thanks. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 15:52:55 GMT
I did it.I faced and beat the trigger. I cannot believe it took me this long. But alas. I'm so proud of myself. I no longer simply react to him. On some level, I still do, but I have more emotional control now and I don't need to avoid him so much. 😁 Still have lots of work to do. I need to internalize this new reaction to override the trigger even more. So he's still my training ground. And I still feel chemistry with him. I'm pretty sure it's due to the fact that we're both unavailable. One way to know I've healed even further is if I no longer feel that pull towards him, and/or the chemistry is based on emotional closeness, which we lack. I'm no longer a total slave to my attachment style. Ahh, what a breakthrough. I'm sooo happy. That shit was hard, I deserve a medal of sorts lol. But the work doesn't stop here. That's right. I've read before that AP has a conscious fear of abandonment and unconscious fear of intimacy and avoidant has a conscious fear of intimacy (engulfment for them) but unconscious fear of abandonment. Yeah that is it. I think I was emotionally unconscious of both of those things (I knew my problem only on an intellectual level). So my interactions with him were a complete and utter mess. A mine field. Omg. How dysfunctional. @blacksnow He never directly acknowledged me, he broke his walls for me -he could be very vulnerable with me but he always made sure there was a distance between us. It didn't feel real enough so I could live in a safe fantasy world most of the time(when I was more FA). I deactivated whenever he suddenly started to be more attentive, to reciprocate - anything that would make it more real; later when I knew it won't last. I wanted him gone then and I always felt uneasy, even hostile when we were talking about me, even though I wanted "it". He kept you at arm's length. And you him. Yes, this is familiar. With this knowledge, I will apply more caution to my interactions with him from here on out. Even if I outgrow him to the point of no return, I know I'm not ready for a relationship. It may take me another year or so until I am. And I'm pretty sure it won't be with him. Are you sure you aren't deactivating? What is he doing wrong?Have you tried to communicate with him? I have no idea what it was. I think, but I'm not sure: at times when we would talk (and especially if he was very emotionally disconnected -- he comes and goes in waves, I can see it in his eyes, if they are empty he is disconnected, if there's a spark, he's "there"), my intuition would scream for me to get away from him. Almost as if I knew I would get hurt. Cue nervousness. Cue weird uncomfortable feeling. Cue avoidance. Pretty sure if I tried to communicate with him about this, he'd run for the hills, and I'd run for the opposite hills. lol
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Post by alexandra on Dec 21, 2018 21:52:39 GMT
I did it.I faced and beat the trigger. I cannot believe it took me this long. But alas. I'm so proud of myself. I'm no longer a total slave to my attachment style. Ahh, what a breakthrough. I'm sooo happy. That shit was hard, I deserve a medal of sorts lol. But the work doesn't stop here. That's right. I've read before that AP has a conscious fear of abandonment and unconscious fear of intimacy and avoidant has a conscious fear of intimacy (engulfment for them) but unconscious fear of abandonment. Yeah that is it. I think I was emotionally unconscious of both of those things (I knew my problem only on an intellectual level). So my interactions with him were a complete and utter mess. A mine field. Omg. How dysfunctional. That's awesome! It really is an accomplishment. And stick with that feeling of pride, because building your self-esteem up is an important part of the process for anyone on the insecure anxious side (AP/FA). You've got this. There is totally a difference between understanding it intellectually and emotionally. When I started to really understand attachment theory, I felt it on a visceral level, and told my ex I wished I could share it with him that way... unfortunately, there's no good way I could think of to explain an intellectual concept that way so he agreed philosophically about communication limits and then basically shrugged it off and nothing came out of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2018 0:41:29 GMT
That's awesome! It really is an accomplishment. And stick with that feeling of pride, because building your self-esteem up is an important part of the process for anyone on the insecure anxious side (AP/FA). You've got this. There is totally a difference between understanding it intellectually and emotionally. When I started to really understand attachment theory, I felt it on a visceral level, and told my ex I wished I could share it with him that way... unfortunately, there's no good way I could think of to explain an intellectual concept that way so he agreed philosophically about communication limits and then basically shrugged it off and nothing came out of it. Thank you! It's a milestone to be sure. And the way that it happened was mostly by accident even though I intended it all along. And as usual, what followed this accomplishment was more epiphanies about myself and my current state. More and more now I feel that "I am okay" and to a (much) lesser degree that "other people are okay". People who aren't abusive assholes that is, as I know quite a few of them... I've mentioned before I am largely responding to my environment and I'm STILL in a pretty terrible environment filled with dysfunctional people, it's a sick shame-based culture I come from that destroyed me from the inside long ago. In your opinion, alexandra, do you think it's in a way "necessary" to use someone who triggers your insecure attachment (i.e. someone you're attracted to) in order to tackle it? Or is it best to turn your back and find someone secure? I'm currently leaning towards the former because I am not attracted to secure people and thus they wouldn't really trigger much in me for me to work through my problems the way that I am now. But I want to hear what you think. |
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Post by leavethelighton on Dec 22, 2018 1:09:31 GMT
I know you were asking alexandra, but personally I am not sure what people mean here when they suggest you may need to interact with someone who triggers you in order to learn to not be triggered.
From what I've experienced, the thought process will continue whether or not you are interacting with them, so a lot of healing can happen without any interaction with them. True that you may not REALLY know how far you've come until you have some interaction and see how much you have or haven't changed, but I think sometimes if you keep interacting as a way of trying to work through it, you may just be stuck in a rut going in circles.
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