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Post by anne12 on Feb 6, 2019 22:25:12 GMT
With your background and with your former relationship you could have some desorganized Attatchmentstyle also. Maybe your angry outburts could be a fight responce. Have you worked with regulaton of your nerveus system on the instinktive level with SE combined with attatchment therapy ? Have you ever had some bodily reactions/warning sings with this Guy that you have ignored ? (Ex goosebumbs, hair raising in your neck, stomac pain, the feeling of wanting to throw up, flee, fight, freeze ?) www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yq3-1aqc6w the cougar and the baby bear. There is a thread about suggestions about how to heal desorganized attatchment ect in the general diskussion forum |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 6, 2019 22:41:09 GMT
I devolved as he evolved. This is what's really standing out to me. You've said this a few different ways now. A healthy relationship is not one where your partner brings you down. This usually happens in an (emotionally) abusive one, that's sucking resources out of you. If you were the one "behaving badly" without being goaded into it, you wouldn't feel weaker and weaker and badly about it because you'd be doing it to accomplish something... or you'd stop doing it. In this situation, you're taking on all the blame and your negative behaviors sound reactionary. Still something to work on, but I suspect you're a lot less at fault than you currently see. It took me probably 8 months after the nitpicking etc. started to understand I'd actually been treated poorly, and I'd allowed it because I hadn't seen it that way due to certain things being normalized in my life previously. People who want to stay in control of others have manipulation tactics they use, consciously or not, that get people to stick around because they are subtle. Are you familiar with gaslighting? While healing is going to come with self-focus, I think it's okay for an AP to spend a bit of time analyzing your partner in a situation like this if you're objectively learning signs of red flags and using that to start depersonalizing the situation and seeing it realistically, and not just fixating on idealizing that partner and blaming youself. When I'd been in questionable situations like that, it did help me to understand that people may have other types of issues that have zero to do with me, and that their treatment of me didn't reflect my value. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 23:17:00 GMT
I devolved as he evolved. This is what's really standing out to me. You've said this a few different ways now. A healthy relationship is not one where your partner brings you down. This usually happens in an (emotionally) abusive one, that's sucking resources out of you. If you were the one "behaving badly" without being goaded into it, you wouldn't feel weaker and weaker and badly about it because you'd be doing it to accomplish something... or you'd stop doing it. In this situation, you're taking on all the blame and your negative behaviors sound reactionary. Still something to work on, but I suspect you're a lot less at fault than you currently see. It took me probably 8 months after the nitpicking etc. started to understand I'd actually been treated poorly, and I'd allowed it because I hadn't seen it that way due to certain things being normalized in my life previously. People who want to stay in control of others have manipulation tactics they use, consciously or not, that get people to stick around because they are subtle. Are you familiar with gaslighting? While healing is going to come with self-focus, I think it's okay for an AP to spend a bit of time analyzing your partner in a situation like this if you're objectively learning signs of red flags and using that to start depersonalizing the situation and seeing it realistically, and not just fixating on idealizing that partner and blaming youself. When I'd been in questionable situations like that, it did help me to understand that people may have other types of issues that have zero to do with me, and that their treatment of me didn't reflect my value. I agree with this take also. I know that after a lifetime of put-downs and abuse, it would seem like an improvement to be praised (intermittently) and supported (intermittently) when those things may have been entirely lacking in previous relationships. But I really see series of relationships as a process of evolving, growing stronger and more conscious and more loving toward ourselves and others. Its a shame we didn't get it the first go round with our parents but many don't... our parents most likely didn't, so what are we going to do but just work on it and try to grow along these lines, simply to hurt less. Talking this out with other people can be really liberating, because you can start to see absurdity where it exists. I bet the soup story is a good one... and I bet I could top it with my egg story. The thing is, these situations serve to uncover your unhealed parts, by evoking old feelings of shame, humiliation, frustration, longing, etc. Those things are latent in us and when someone comes along with behavior that is similar to the original treatment we received, it brings up any unhealed part so we can know what we need to work on. Most of the time it's so we can know where we need a new boundary, too. When we give another person so much power over our emotions, thoughts, perceptions, etc... something is amiss and we need to find out what it is. Someone else's bad behavior doesn't need to be a statement about us. It's a statement about them. Your regrettable behavior may simply be an indicator that you tolerated too much bad behavior. His may be for similar reasons, who knows. But that isn't yours to concern yourself with. And, as anne12 mentioned, you may have some trauma reactions in your nervous system that put you in fight mode. I do, I still work on that. That's all yours to address, but the good news is you didn't deserve this stuff and there are brighter days ahead if you learn expect as good as you give. |
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Post by anne12 on Feb 6, 2019 23:28:06 GMT
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Post by fairysalad on Feb 7, 2019 8:19:09 GMT
Thank you all for your continued discussion, I really am finding it useful.
I hadn't thought about disorganised attachment, but will look into it. I have thought about working on trauma but sadly therapists trained in that here in the UK tend to be out of my price range. I will look at the thread suggested in the general discussion and see if anything resonates.
I can definitely feel the sense in what you are all saying about behaviours being reactionary, and it is helping lift my guilt a little. I am looking at certain comments/actions made in the beginning with a bit more clarity now, and seeing how I was choosing to tolerate pain rather than walk away. The later stages are more difficult, as I've said, because I struggle to pick out those instances as clearly. It is my 'noise' to his silence.
I do remember one session of our counselling that felt quite useful, which asked us to identify triggers in the relationship. We had homework that day, and I was pretty excited to have something to work on together. He shut down very quickly into the exercise and told me he was tired. Which I guess is the dissonance of telling me he wanted to fight for us, but refusing to actually work? He didn't seem happy that day, perhaps because it included his stuff as well as mine.
I'm taking everything on board, thank you. Having looked at the narcissm idea a bit more closely, there are a few boxes ticked but not many.
I've been trying to think of more instances to cement in my mind that this was a two way street. But my memory is really foggy, which in itself is strange as I have always been able to remember things very clearly.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 7, 2019 8:45:23 GMT
But my memory is really foggy, which in itself is strange as I have always been able to remember things very clearly. I do not have a good source for you about this unfortunately, but brain fog / confusion / memory issues can absolutely happen with emotional abuse (as well as with depression or PTSD). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 10:08:04 GMT
i think it's normal to have a foggy memory - there's usually alot of trauma and pain going on which you're trying to deal with every day, and the breakup is like this huge void in which you can finally just breathe and let go for yourself. it literally is taking a break from all that confusion that you've described. regarding tolerating pain than walking away from it - it's really difficult isn't it? I was really conflicted in my own rship and I cried everyday throughout the day for a long time. to choose to stay because i love him and believe that i have to fight for it, but want to leave because i was in so much pain --- especially when the other person is explicitly telling you he's trying but sending so many mixed messages. is it me being difficult/picky/controlling or is it them being contradictory/gaslighting? that was something i struggled alot with, because i did not believe (or want to) that he was dissonant on purpose, but i was often confused and doubtful because how can a man so smart and successful as he is be so dissonant and self un-aware? the confusion just got worse because i was acting out and i could objectively see that i was also being annoying. anyways, he behaved in undesirable ways - that's his problem to deal with.
i can only speak from my own experience. at some point, i gave up trying to understand where he was coming from - is it a hurt childhood, unprocessed emotions, me being annoying etc etc etc. the point is i am unhappy and i have issues that made me react the way i did. i looked at what behaviors i enacted that i found undesirable, and made intentions and actions to address them. but to get to that point, i had to process alot of emotions that welled up, not only from the relationship experience and breakup, but also all the other issues that emerged into consciousness because of it e.g., childhood, past trauma, other abuse i've received.
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Post by fairysalad on Feb 7, 2019 10:49:05 GMT
i think it's normal to have a foggy memory - there's usually alot of trauma and pain going on which you're trying to deal with every day, and the breakup is like this huge void in which you can finally just breathe and let go for yourself. it literally is taking a break from all that confusion that you've described. regarding tolerating pain than walking away from it - it's really difficult isn't it? I was really conflicted in my own rship and I cried everyday throughout the day for a long time. to choose to stay because i love him and believe that i have to fight for it, but want to leave because i was in so much pain --- especially when the other person is explicitly telling you he's trying but sending so many mixed messages. is it me being difficult/picky/controlling or is it them being contradictory/gaslighting? that was something i struggled alot with, because i did not believe (or want to) that he was dissonant on purpose, but i was often confused and doubtful because how can a man so smart and successful as he is be so dissonant and self un-aware? the confusion just got worse because i was acting out and i could objectively see that i was also being annoying. anyways, he behaved in undesirable ways - that's his problem to deal with. i can only speak from my own experience. at some point, i gave up trying to understand where he was coming from - is it a hurt childhood, unprocessed emotions, me being annoying etc etc etc. the point is i am unhappy and i have issues that made me react the way i did. i looked at what behaviors i enacted that i found undesirable, and made intentions and actions to address them. but to get to that point, i had to process alot of emotions that welled up, not only from the relationship experience and breakup, but also all the other issues that emerged into consciousness because of it e.g., childhood, past trauma, other abuse i've received. Definitely feeling the void, but also the sense of being able to breathe. When I am not turning everything over in my head, or feeling the grief, I am aware that I feel calmer than I have done in a long time. It is like a slow returning of the feeling that I am OK, I am good enough. Like I said, I have done a lot of work and processing of my childhood trauma over the years and had got to a point that I was proud of who I was. Despite what I had been through, I came out of it with a rich circle of supportive friends and a balanced, kind attitude towards others. I didn't have a high paying career, but found fulfillment in art and nature. Was proud of my achievements. Definitely still some self-esteem issues, but I was good at taming that critical inner voice. My friends felt the bullying I endured whilst away may have retraumatised me about some early stuff, I now wonder if my relationship had its part in that as well. I don't think his behaviour was intended to be hurtful. Nevertheless, this message that I wasn't good enough pervaded the relationship. I went in feeling strong, happy and secure. I came out feeling weak and defective. I suppose it doesn't matter if his behaviour turned around in the final year, the message was already set. Times I tried to talk about hurtful comments that had stuck in my mind, I was told he hadn't said them, or that it was a joke. I'm venting a bit now, I think. Not sure whether what I am saying is useful to all of you who are so kind in trying to help me make sense of this. One thing that is starting to become firm, is that I need to drop the idea of meeting and discussing this with him. Just another reinforcement of negativity if I am willing to put aside all this pain to give him his wish of being friends. A friend tells you if you are behaving in a way that is unacceptable to your bond, and gives you the chance to rectify. He never gave me that chance. I think I do need to accept that however painful, if he believes this is all on me, I cannot change that. I am aware of the things I did wrong, and will work hard to ensure I do not repeat behaviour that makes me ashamed. If he is not aware of his own 'bad' behaviour, the room for growth is limited. And while I feel pain for him for that, it isn't my responsibility. This is painful. But it is good painful. I won't forgive myself for my behaviour over the last year. But I will accept it wasn't normal for me, and that it was in reaction to something I couldn't see quite clearly at the time. My friend took me to the supermarket last night, and I found myself explaining every item I picked up. Eventually they just looked at me, confused, and said 'dude, you can buy whatever you want'. It's a small example of the leftovers of the relationship, but really made me realise how much I have had to justify my decisions, to the point it is kind of ingrained. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 14:14:13 GMT
i think it's normal to have a foggy memory - there's usually alot of trauma and pain going on which you're trying to deal with every day, and the breakup is like this huge void in which you can finally just breathe and let go for yourself. it literally is taking a break from all that confusion that you've described. regarding tolerating pain than walking away from it - it's really difficult isn't it? I was really conflicted in my own rship and I cried everyday throughout the day for a long time. to choose to stay because i love him and believe that i have to fight for it, but want to leave because i was in so much pain --- especially when the other person is explicitly telling you he's trying but sending so many mixed messages. is it me being difficult/picky/controlling or is it them being contradictory/gaslighting? that was something i struggled alot with, because i did not believe (or want to) that he was dissonant on purpose, but i was often confused and doubtful because how can a man so smart and successful as he is be so dissonant and self un-aware? the confusion just got worse because i was acting out and i could objectively see that i was also being annoying. anyways, he behaved in undesirable ways - that's his problem to deal with. i can only speak from my own experience. at some point, i gave up trying to understand where he was coming from - is it a hurt childhood, unprocessed emotions, me being annoying etc etc etc. the point is i am unhappy and i have issues that made me react the way i did. i looked at what behaviors i enacted that i found undesirable, and made intentions and actions to address them. but to get to that point, i had to process alot of emotions that welled up, not only from the relationship experience and breakup, but also all the other issues that emerged into consciousness because of it e.g., childhood, past trauma, other abuse i've received.
Definitely feeling the void, but also the sense of being able to breathe. When I am not turning everything over in my head, or feeling the grief, I am aware that I feel calmer than I have done in a long time. It is like a slow returning of the feeling that I am OK, I am good enough. Like I said, I have done a lot of work and processing of my childhood trauma over the years and had got to a point that I was proud of who I was. Despite what I had been through, I came out of it with a rich circle of supportive friends and a balanced, kind attitude towards others. I didn't have a high paying career, but found fulfillment in art and nature. Was proud of my achievements. Definitely still some self-esteem issues, but I was good at taming that critical inner voice. My friends felt the bullying I endured whilst away may have retraumatised me about some early stuff, I now wonder if my relationship had its part in that as well. I don't think his behaviour was intended to be hurtful. Nevertheless, this message that I wasn't good enough pervaded the relationship. I went in feeling strong, happy and secure. I came out feeling weak and defective. I suppose it doesn't matter if his behaviour turned around in the final year, the message was already set. Times I tried to talk about hurtful comments that had stuck in my mind, I was told he hadn't said them, or that it was a joke.I'm venting a bit now, I think. Not sure whether what I am saying is useful to all of you who are so kind in trying to help me make sense of this. One thing that is starting to become firm, is that I need to drop the idea of meeting and discussing this with him. Just another reinforcement of negativity if I am willing to put aside all this pain to give him his wish of being friends. A friend tells you if you are behaving in a way that is unacceptable to your bond, and gives you the chance to rectify. He never gave me that chance. I think I do need to accept that however painful, if he believes this is all on me, I cannot change that. I am aware of the things I did wrong, and will work hard to ensure I do not repeat behaviour that makes me ashamed. If he is not aware of his own 'bad' behaviour, the room for growth is limited. And while I feel pain for him for that, it isn't my responsibility.This is painful. But it is good painful. I won't forgive myself for my behaviour over the last year. But I wil l accept it wasn't normal for me, and that it was in reaction to something I couldn't see quite clearly at the time.
My friend took me to the supermarket last night, and I found myself explaining every item I picked up. Eventually they just looked at me, confused, and said 'dude, you can buy whatever you want'. It's a small example of the leftovers of the relationship, but really made me realise how much I have had to justify my decisions, to the point it is kind of ingrained. Alot of things you're saying I'm completely there with you - I've bolded them so you know that you're not alone in these experiences. Our bodies know when we aren't being treated well, even though cognitively it doesn't sound terrible or that it can be interpreted in a way that reduces its negative undertones. It hurts emotionally but we can't quite place our finger on it cognitively what just happened. my opinion is that until you've made sense of all of that and of yourself, discussion shouldn't even be considered, much less friendship. Regardless of whether he has grown or not, if one is not completely centered and stable and secure in yourself such that responses can be dignified, measured and controlled, it would be difficult to be fully present in the moment, offer our fullest self, and most importantly, see the situation objectively and calmly from a place of clear values, intentions, and boundaries. when we get there, we'll be in a much better place to decide where we should go next. You said you've done loads of work in processing your childhood and you seem quite self-aware so far. A good way to think about it is that this experience is an opportunity to address what's left so that you're going to get even better and stronger. I really appreciate that you are able to detail things so clearly so quickly; when i first got on the boards, i really benefited from reading clear writing about experiences and perspectives because it helped me process my own experiences much more quickly, and I think that facilitated my healing with a sense of support or at least understanding from others - that I'm not a crazy or terrible person who really just didn't deserve a loving relationship. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 14:24:30 GMT
i think it's normal to have a foggy memory - there's usually alot of trauma and pain going on which you're trying to deal with every day, and the breakup is like this huge void in which you can finally just breathe and let go for yourself. it literally is taking a break from all that confusion that you've described. regarding tolerating pain than walking away from it - it's really difficult isn't it? I was really conflicted in my own rship and I cried everyday throughout the day for a long time. to choose to stay because i love him and believe that i have to fight for it, but want to leave because i was in so much pain --- especially when the other person is explicitly telling you he's trying but sending so many mixed messages. is it me being difficult/picky/controlling or is it them being contradictory/gaslighting? that was something i struggled alot with, because i did not believe (or want to) that he was dissonant on purpose, but i was often confused and doubtful because how can a man so smart and successful as he is be so dissonant and self un-aware? the confusion just got worse because i was acting out and i could objectively see that i was also being annoying. anyways, he behaved in undesirable ways - that's his problem to deal with. i can only speak from my own experience. at some point, i gave up trying to understand where he was coming from - is it a hurt childhood, unprocessed emotions, me being annoying etc etc etc. the point is i am unhappy and i have issues that made me react the way i did. i looked at what behaviors i enacted that i found undesirable, and made intentions and actions to address them. but to get to that point, i had to process alot of emotions that welled up, not only from the relationship experience and breakup, but also all the other issues that emerged into consciousness because of it e.g., childhood, past trauma, other abuse i've received. Definitely feeling the void, but also the sense of being able to breathe. When I am not turning everything over in my head, or feeling the grief, I am aware that I feel calmer than I have done in a long time. It is like a slow returning of the feeling that I am OK, I am good enough. Like I said, I have done a lot of work and processing of my childhood trauma over the years and had got to a point that I was proud of who I was. Despite what I had been through, I came out of it with a rich circle of supportive friends and a balanced, kind attitude towards others. I didn't have a high paying career, but found fulfillment in art and nature. Was proud of my achievements. Definitely still some self-esteem issues, but I was good at taming that critical inner voice. My friends felt the bullying I endured whilst away may have retraumatised me about some early stuff, I now wonder if my relationship had its part in that as well. I don't think his behaviour was intended to be hurtful. Nevertheless, this message that I wasn't good enough pervaded the relationship. I went in feeling strong, happy and secure. I came out feeling weak and defective. I suppose it doesn't matter if his behaviour turned around in the final year, the message was already set. Times I tried to talk about hurtful comments that had stuck in my mind, I was told he hadn't said them, or that it was a joke. I'm venting a bit now, I think. Not sure whether what I am saying is useful to all of you who are so kind in trying to help me make sense of this. One thing that is starting to become firm, is that I need to drop the idea of meeting and discussing this with him. Just another reinforcement of negativity if I am willing to put aside all this pain to give him his wish of being friends. A friend tells you if you are behaving in a way that is unacceptable to your bond, and gives you the chance to rectify. He never gave me that chance. I think I do need to accept that however painful, if he believes this is all on me, I cannot change that. I am aware of the things I did wrong, and will work hard to ensure I do not repeat behaviour that makes me ashamed. If he is not aware of his own 'bad' behaviour, the room for growth is limited. And while I feel pain for him for that, it isn't my responsibility. This is painful. But it is good painful. I won't forgive myself for my behaviour over the last year. But I will accept it wasn't normal for me, and that it was in reaction to something I couldn't see quite clearly at the time. My friend took me to the supermarket last night, and I found myself explaining every item I picked up. Eventually they just looked at me, confused, and said 'dude, you can buy whatever you want'. It's a small example of the leftovers of the relationship, but really made me realise how much I have had to justify my decisions, to the point it is kind of ingrained. It sounds like you have a great foundation of healing already in place from your past work, and that this process will just give you an opportunity to refine and deepen your connections to what makes you happy, safe, and your true self. Sometimes we compromise where we shouldn't, we tolerate what will poison us slowly, and it isn't until we've gotten really sick that we realize what we've been a part of. It's disheartening, but also there is so much good in remembering how far you have come, and what you have to be thankful for! It sounds like you have wonderful friends who will consistently treat you the way you deserve to be treated- respecting your freedom to be uniquely you without snippng away at you here and there. I have been in situations such as the one you've described, for a much shorter time and with a different reaction (I left). I realized, that this man was doing and saying things that no one else in my life, would do or say to me. The striking difference between what was going on in my most initiate relationship (which should be the safest!) and my other close associations was really eye opening. His actions, as you know, don't have to be intentional to be utterly inappropriate and destructive. When you think of having a conversation with him, where you share your deepest thoughts and feelings about it all, imagine him cutting you off and finishing your sentences. Ask yourself, is he that evolved? As nice as he is and as well intentioned as he may be, does he have the maturity to give you the respect you deserve and validate your autonomy with basic courtesy? Are you allowed to be a full adult with him, or do you or him push you down into a child role? That's not where you belong, and those who love you best will encourage your voice. Anyway, I'm glad you are feeling more balanced. It's a painful process but if you navigate it consciously you can recover yourself well and move on to better opportunities. I think you sound very wise and introspective and solid. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 14:45:55 GMT
Oh, and fairysalad , that bit about being told he didn't say what you think he said, or that he was joking...That's GASLIGHTING. Very destructive. Some people use language as their weapon of choice. It sounds like he is adept at using it both ways- attempting to get away with the slights and AND shutting you down. Don't minimize the power of language. He is wielding his language against you and ripping yours away. This is very damaging, by itself! It may be that he is just unconscious and immature. But he's toxic. A grown man behaving this way toward his grown woman partner is toxic!! |
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Post by epicgum on Feb 7, 2019 17:29:50 GMT
"I think this is when we went into real toxicity. I loved him and wanted him near, but I was irritated by his presence."
This sounds so much like the reaction of the AP children in the original strange experiment study.
Your relationship reads a lot like mine, only I am in the position of your ex, and with less drama and cruelty from both sides.
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 7, 2019 22:47:20 GMT
"I think this is when we went into real toxicity. I loved him and wanted him near, but I was irritated by his presence." This sounds so much like the reaction of the AP children in the original strange experiment study. Your relationship reads a lot like mine, only I am in the position of your ex, and with less drama and cruelty from both sides. - Hmmm...not sure what the babies felt in the study but my AP reaction is more “I love him and want him near but feel hurt and rejected, even in his presence.” Growing up my home I can’t even remember a time when I felt safe or accepted enough to go to either parent about any emotional need or feeling, never cried, expressed sadness or joy or sought comfort- and my memories go as far back as 5 years old. I was completely on my own emotionally. I was an emotional zombie. That familiar feeling of rejection runs deep and the fear of abandonment is an old one. |
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Post by epicgum on Feb 7, 2019 23:00:33 GMT
"I think this is when we went into real toxicity. I loved him and wanted him near, but I was irritated by his presence." This sounds so much like the reaction of the AP children in the original strange experiment study. Your relationship reads a lot like mine, only I am in the position of your ex, and with less drama and cruelty from both sides. - Hmmm...not sure what the babies felt in the study but my AP reaction is more “I love him and want him near but feel hurt and rejected, even in his presence.” Growing up my home I can’t even remember a time when I felt safe or accepted enough to go to either parent about any emotional need or feeling, never cried, expressed sadness or joy or sought comfort- and my memories go as far back as 5 years old. I was completely on my own emotionally. I was an emotional zombie. That familiar feeling of rejection runs deep and the fear of abandonment is an old one. Hi @faithhopelove I could be wrong, but my memory of the original strange situation experiment describes the AP children protesting loudly when the mom left the room, and then when mom returned remaining upset and sometimes angry, hitting their mother etc. |
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Post by faithopelove on Feb 7, 2019 23:51:13 GMT
epicgum - Hmmm...not sure what the babies felt in the study but my AP reaction is more “I love him and want him near but feel hurt and rejected, even in his presence.” Growing up my home I can’t even remember a time when I felt safe or accepted enough to go to either parent about any emotional need or feeling, never cried, expressed sadness or joy or sought comfort- and my memories go as far back as 5 years old. I was completely on my own emotionally. I was an emotional zombie. That familiar feeling of rejection runs deep and the fear of abandonment is an old one. Hi @faithhopelove I could be wrong, but my memory of the original strange situation experiment describes the AP children protesting loudly when the mom left the room, and then when mom returned remaining upset and sometimes angry, hitting their mother etc. Hmmm, I do test strong DA with both of my parents so maybe that’s why that reaction to my parents is something I wouldn’t dare do- hit or show any emotion would be unthinkable. Now protest reaction to a partner, yes |
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