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Post by toorational on Aug 19, 2019 12:52:57 GMT
unsuresecure: Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. Yes, my GF is certainly not on the extreme end of the DA spectrum but I feel like she has slight DA tendencies. I might be mistaken and you might be right, though. But I'm not sure where you read that I threw a tantrum. I merely told her that I'd think about her proposition as I was not sure if I felt like driving to her place that night and I'd prefer if she came over as planned. She somehow found my reaction very offensive (the fact that I was considering not going), to the point that she said that she almost didn't pick up when I called back one hour later. I'm not sure who is overreacting in this whole thing to be honest. I feel like the slightest hint of criticism about her behavior is always met with pretty intense lash back.
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Post by toorational on Aug 19, 2019 13:10:37 GMT
I dont know how you deal with this... Id end it. You're looking for mutually loving long term and she will not provide this. Well it's been a slow change. My ex was DA so I was already aware of red flags but for the first 1½ years it was true bliss, secure relationship. I was so happy that I had found someone who I thought was secure. We were discussing moving in together in a few years and she even mentioned at some point that she finally understood why some people marry (i.e. she felt a strong love connection and found the idea of a life-long partnership attractive). So I guess I'm clinging to the hope that we can find a way to reconnect and get back to that previous state. We sometimes do. A few months ago we had a 6-weeks long honeymoon flashback. Everything was back to "normal". I'm hoping that we can get out of that AP-DA spiral before we crash and burn. I know that it's going to be difficult but I'm willing to put in the effort to make it work because we are compatible in so many other aspects of our relationship (activities, values, sexual chemistry, financial status, age, etc).
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Post by unsuresecure on Aug 19, 2019 13:16:37 GMT
"I feel like the slightest hint of criticism about her behavior is always met with pretty intense lash back. "
Maybe because you criticize her behavior a lot? I'd read that response as passive-aggressive because you seem to be very keen(and push) on meetings, I'm sure you'll go out of your way to meet and now you have to think? I'd think "does he? or is he trying to punish me for wanting to do something for myself?". You yourself called it a protest response. Have you ever considered her distancing might have something to do with your protests?
To give you an example: I usually exercise 2 hours a day, I love it, it makes me feel good, I do it because I want to. Sometimes I don't. I don't feel like it. I spend all day (or a few) in my bed, doing nothing, eating pizza. Does it mean I don't like exercising? No. Does it mean I won't exercise anymore? No, but imagine there was someone constantly monitoring my activity level and criticize me each time or show his disappointment when I skip my workouts. I'd dread doing it after some time.
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Post by toorational on Aug 19, 2019 13:34:31 GMT
unsuresecure: Very good analogy, thanks. I guess it was protest behavior in a way but for one of the rare time I was asserting myself. No I didn't feel like driving all the way there yet again, especially since we both work tomorrow and logistically it made much more sense for her to drive to my place. I knew I was triggered and that's why I told her that I would take time to think about it. I wanted to take a step back to get some clarity. I tried to hide my disappointment as much as I could but obviously I failed. It's very interesting that one person is basically saying that I'm being overly sensitive and another one is suggesting that they would end it. Thanks for your varied opinions, it helps me see both sides of the coin.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2019 2:03:25 GMT
It seems you two are just incompatible. You want very different things- each of you would have to change drastically in order to bridge the gap. Lifestyle/relationship style intentions are individual, and neither good nor bad, just different. I opt for her style of relationship, not living together. Many women who have parented their children to independence do not wish to live-in with a partner's young kids. I know several, and it doesn't have to do with attachment style as much as life stages and a want to focus on their own interests, rhythms, and independence from children. Especially if the children in question are raised with a different set of household expectations. That can be a killer.
So the lifestyle/relationship issue is enormous. Add to that all the other difficulty you face not living together- your anxiety, the disparate intimacy and time needs, attachment styles, etc etc.
It seems to me that you are viewing her through the lens of your longing and wishes of who and how she should be, instead of through the lens of who and how she really is. This will cause you enduring pain, until you accept her for how she really is without trying to change her. Compatibility that lasts only weeks at a time is temporary compatibility, not long term compatibility.
If I were involved with someone whose future vision was incompatible with mine, and not one I felt happy compromising my own for, I would not consider us compatible. Without compatibility, what do you have? Pain. Disillusionment. Unhappiness. With no end in sight.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2019 3:17:38 GMT
unsuresecure : Very good analogy, thanks. I guess it was protest behavior in a way but for one of the rare time I was asserting myself. No I didn't feel like driving all the way there yet again, especially since we both work tomorrow and logistically it made much more sense for her to drive to my place. I knew I was triggered and that's why I told her that I would take time to think about it. I wanted to take a step back to get some clarity. I tried to hide my disappointment as much as I could but obviously I failed. It's very interesting that one person is basically saying that I'm being overly sensitive and another one is suggesting that they would end it. Thanks for your varied opinions, it helps me see both sides of the coin. hi, I can see where you're coming from. I had the same experience, where I was very willing to do alot for the relationship, usually at my expense. and then i'd notice that the giving was not reciprocated, and after an extended period of time, i would resent it. On the one hand, it feels like if I don't do it e.g., drive there, i would not see the person, because that person can't be arsed to come to me. On the other hand, it is very annoying that it's always at the person's convenience. I felt stuck in the middle where if I don't give, then the relationship cannot continue, but if I give, then it's just all one-sided and not sustainable. I was really triggered silly in that particular relationship, and it got worse because I never had the guts to assert myself and make known clearly what I feel. When i finally did, it felt like i threw a tantrum and that he was surprised that I actually had needs that might inconvenience him instead. I recently had a similar experience with my current partner, and it's so difficult because I really do enjoy spending my weekends with him but my schedule is the one that is disrupted because of logistics. I told him this is the last weekend I'm spending with him and he needs to stay over at mine next week because I'm feeling over extended and I'm resenting it because of how disruptive it is to my schedule. he said ok and that was that. I was starting to get triggered, but I recognize that it has nothing to do with him; I need to adjust my behavior to something that is sustainable and easy for me, so that I can be myself and be the most authentic partner so that he can interact with the real me. I think the difference between this and a protest behavior is that I did not do this with a secret wish/waiting to see if he would "come" to me or behave in a way I expect. It was my boundary and condition, laid down for my benefit, and if they were not met, I would not extend myself further to repair the relationship. I needed to draw a line because those behaviors, while allowing me to enjoy his company, made me feel like I was not taking care of myself nor allowing him to show up for me. I did it because I had to for myself, without thinking if this is an action that will elicit reactions nor analyse what a potential reaction might indicate/mean. I did not care if it "backfired" on me, i will see it as an incompatibility and that he was not willing to give in the way I expect my partner to. I think the state of mind and the feeling of doing it are quite different from a protest behavior - and I know, because i've done those before as well. only you can judge what you're doing when you said no to her. Maybe you are overly sensitive, maybe she's not really a giving person, maybe you are not compatible - we don't really know. i think the key is really objectively seeing if she meets your needs, treats you well in the way you wish to be treated, and are you fair to her in these assessments i.e., did you identify your own problems and separate it from her behavior.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2019 3:21:44 GMT
... I mentioned that I had noticed that we were not in the honeymoon phase anymore and she seemed totally oblivious to that fact. She was actually surprised that I'd say that because we have had a great last 3 weeks (which is true). But I'm looking at the general trend. I didn't want to get into details with her because I wanted to avoid more negativity in last night's discussion. But I'll do it here: She makes much less efforts to come to my place than before. Sex is less frequent than before, sexting is gone, sexy lingerie is gone, we don't write each other lover letters anymore, cutesy little texts decreased a lot, physical touches throughout the day are much less, sometimes she will ignore my hand when I try to hold hands in the car, etc... I could go on but you get the point. It's a little mind boggling to me how she doesn't seem to realize all those things and notice that we're at a different place in our relationship. I think it boils down to one thing: I'm expecting more from her than she's willing to invest in this (or any?) relationship. It almost seems like she'd be okay with a casual relationship for another 15 years. I'm looking for a deeper connection but I don't know if she ever did. One early red flag is that she was not married in her previous 15-years relationship and she has said in the past that she doesn't understand why people marry. I don't necessarily insist on getting remarried but I'm expecting however to reach the same level of commitment in a relationship that marriage entails. I want a deep life-long commitment that we have found the love of our lives and that we want to become life partners and share joys and hurdles together, supporting each other. I don't want to live parallel lives that sometimes connect. I want to live our life together. have you ever told her what you're looking for and have a discussion around whether you're looking for the same things? are you looking to marry or not, regardless of what her stance is? Did you tell her exactly that you don't want parallel lives and want to co-create life together, and discuss what that might look like? She might very well want the "same" but have a very different idea of what that might look like in real life, and perhaps that is really important information, like what sherry has suggested.
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Post by toorational on Aug 20, 2019 19:54:00 GMT
@sherry: I'm afraid you might be right and I'm probably in denial. I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. I'm a bit mad actually about the whole thing because her vision for the future together changed quite a bit since the beginning of our relationship. If she had told me that she didn't want to move in together at all until my kids are out of the house at the beginning, I might not have pursued this relationship. It's a big deal to me. It's almost (not quite as bad, I know) as if you told someone you wanted kids at first, but 2 years into the R/S you change your mind and don't want kids anymore. I understand that my younger son (7 yo) can be difficult at times but he improved tremendously in the past 2 years, and my GF recognizes that. Yet she was considering moving in together when my son was worse, but not anymore. Quite puzzling really.
@shiningstar: To answer your question, yes we discussed these things at the beginning. No more kids for either of us. Marriage is not absolutely out of the question but not very likely and not necessary for either of us. We often discussed retiring together and what we would like to do then. Moving in together was in the plans, we would often talk how nice it's gonna be when we can finally share the load and do household chores together. The timeline was pretty clear that it would be once her kids reach college (in 4 years now). That has totally changed. Perhaps it was just a spur of the moment thing when she was upset that night on the phone. My AP side is telling me it's because her love for me has waned and she's not willing to make the effort of living with small kids to be together anymore.
So she came over last night and it was interesting to say the least. She showed up all made up, lipstick, sexy summer dress, huge smile. She had sent me cute texts during the day. She was in her best mood and very loving and affectionate throughout the night. My libido was through the roof but after we finished out TV show she was ready to crash. I was disappointed in the moment but only very briefly, because I recognized that she was sexually interested in me but simply truly too tired. She fell asleep in my arms in less than a minute. She prefers to do it in the morning well rested so this morning we had great passionate sex.
So I'm not sure what to read into this. We didn't talk about our relationship because I wanted to keep things light and to be honest, I didn't want to kill the mood. We will go on a fishing trip deep in the woods in two weeks for 3-4 days so I definitely plan to discuss our relationship at this point. We need to discuss the subject of moving in together again. I want to make sure that I know where she stands. But I want to keep the trip fun so I won't burden her with couple talk too much. I also recently found a list of "36 Deep Questions to Ask Your Significant Other So You Can Truly Know Them" and I'd like to discuss a few of these with her throughout the trip. Obviously not the whole list but I'd like to deepen our relationship, it's kinda important to me. I know that she is reluctant to talk too much about herself so I'll keep this in mind and be respectful of her boundaries.
It's difficult for me to accept that we might be incompatible because we had been so compatible for the first 1½ years. And obviously moments like last night give me hope. I so don't want to give up those incredible moments. It's the first time I feel such good chemistry with someone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2019 20:14:31 GMT
I'm sorry toorational, it sucks and it's painful. I've seen so much of this kind of thing IRL and here- shifting goal posts and hiding, not communicating, waiting for right time, never making the right time to get to the heart of the matter. It happens all the way around. I hope you find peace whatever happens.
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Post by toorational on Oct 9, 2019 1:22:41 GMT
Hello, it's been a while so I figure I should post a bit of an update. So ever since that little fight we had when I last posted, things have been absolutely blissful. We're like in another honeymoon phase. I guess that I somehow made her realize some things when we talked on the phone that night. I'm not sure what it is but she changed 180 degrees. She actually came over and spent a few days in a row at my place a bit later, which was the first time in more than 6 months that she spent more than a day in a row at my place. Everything else has been great too.
I also finally managed to find a therapist. He's actually a graduate student finishing his degree and now has to do some counselling training. So I'm actually being filmed and he reviews some of the footage with his advisor, who is a professor and the head of the clinic. I wanted a therapist who is well versed in attachment theory and I found the right person I think. The whole clinic is actually using this theory in their practice. So far I had 4 eval sessions where I did all the talking. The 5th session was yesterday and it was the psychologist's turn to talk and basically give me his analysis of the situation. I was impressed at how he seemed to make sense of all my rambling and was able to synthesize the situation very well. So the "treatment" has not really started yet, the first 5 sessions were kinda to set the table. I'm quite happy with the process, I think that it's very important to take time to understand the situation and the person before jumping into any therapy.
I'm hopeful for the future. Thanks again to everyone who helped in my journey. I know there will be more bumps ahead in this relationship but I'm more convinced than ever that we both want to put in the effort to make it work and that's what we'll do. We'll put in the work and reap the benefits. That's the plan anyway. Wish me luck.
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 9, 2019 2:48:23 GMT
Hello, it's been a while so I figure I should post a bit of an update. So ever since that little fight we had when I last posted, things have been absolutely blissful. We're like in another honeymoon phase. I guess that I somehow made her realize some things when we talked on the phone that night. I'm not sure what it is but she changed 180 degrees. She actually came over and spent a few days in a row at my place a bit later, which was the first time in more than 6 months that she spent more than a day in a row at my place. Everything else has been great too. I also finally managed to find a therapist. He's actually a graduate student finishing his degree and now has to do some counselling training. So I'm actually being filmed and he reviews some of the footage with his advisor, who is a professor and the head of the clinic. I wanted a therapist who is well versed in attachment theory and I found the right person I think. The whole clinic is actually using this theory in their practice. So far I had 4 eval sessions where I did all the talking. The 5th session was yesterday and it was the psychologist's turn to talk and basically give me his analysis of the situation. I was impressed at how he seemed to make sense of all my rambling and was able to synthesize the situation very well. So the "treatment" has not really started yet, the first 5 sessions were kinda to set the table. I'm quite happy with the process, I think that it's very important to take time to understand the situation and the person before jumping into any therapy. I'm hopeful for the future. Thanks again to everyone who helped in my journey. I know there will be more bumps ahead in this relationship but I'm more convinced than ever that we both want to put in the effort to make it work and that's what we'll do. We'll put in the work and reap the benefits. That's the plan anyway. Wish me luck. [ toorational - Good luck to you. I hope you are both happy and you’re on your way to a healthier and fulfilling relationship.
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Post by toorational on Mar 8, 2020 11:31:02 GMT
It's been a while, thought I would stop by, say hello and update this thread a bit.
The past 4 months have been relatively smooth sailing. No major crisis like we've had in the past but also not necessarily perfect either. I've had frustration moments for the most part I kept them to myself or I shared them with my psychologist.
Speaking of which, I have been somewhat disappointed in the sessions with my psychologist and I ended things a month ago. I felt that the sessions were mostly without guidance and I did most of the talking. There was very little input from him. There was no clear therapy plan and we never really talked about the theory of attachment, even though I specifically chose this clinic because they apparently use this theory in their therapies. Anyway, it at least helped to get everything off my chest because I had someone to talk to. But I often felt like I was just complaining about my girlfriend all the time. It made me realize that one of the problem I have, is that I focus too much on the 5% of the relationship that it not to my liking. Like a child that it never satisfied unless everything is perfectly aligned with his desires.
So at this point I'm still confused about this relationship. I don't know whether I can have a fulfilling relationship with my slightly-DA girlfriend. The problem is that as the relationship moves clearly past the honeymoon phase, my GF is settling more and more in her distant behaviors. Her signs of affections are less and less common and I feel less desired and desirable. Frequency of sex has decreased, but the biggest issue is that she rarely initiates anymore. Perhaps some guys would be ok with that but I need to feel desired. What is puzzling is that sex is always great and so I'm confused as to why she never initiates. Perhaps just a simple case of libido mismatch but a problem in the context of a AP-DA relationship.
I'm also having issues with my youngest son that is draining lots of my energy lately, which is leaving me more tired and emotionally vulnerable. That puts me in a place where I'm more affected than usual by my GF behaviors and I'm fearful for the future.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 8, 2020 12:19:31 GMT
It's been a while, thought I would stop by, say hello and update this thread a bit. The past 4 months have been relatively smooth sailing. No major crisis like we've had in the past but also not necessarily perfect either. I've had frustration moments for the most part I kept them to myself or I shared them with my psychologist. Speaking of which, I have been somewhat disappointed in the sessions with my psychologist and I ended things a month ago. I felt that the sessions were mostly without guidance and I did most of the talking. There was very little input from him. There was no clear therapy plan and we never really talked about the theory of attachment, even though I specifically chose this clinic because they apparently use this theory in their therapies. Anyway, it at least helped to get everything off my chest because I had someone to talk to. But I often felt like I was just complaining about my girlfriend all the time. It made me realize that one of the problem I have, is that I focus too much on the 5% of the relationship that it not to my liking. Like a child that it never satisfied unless everything is perfectly aligned with his desires. So at this point I'm still confused about this relationship. I don't know whether I can have a fulfilling relationship with my slightly-DA girlfriend. The problem is that as the relationship moves clearly past the honeymoon phase, my GF is settling more and more in her distant behaviors. Her signs of affections are less and less common and I feel less desired and desirable. Frequency of sex has decreased, but the biggest issue is that she rarely initiates anymore. Perhaps some guys would be ok with that but I need to feel desired. What is puzzling is that sex is always great and so I'm confused as to why she never initiates. Perhaps just a simple case of libido mismatch but a problem in the context of a AP-DA relationship. I'm also having issues with my youngest son that is draining lots of my energy lately, which is leaving me more tired and emotionally vulnerable. That puts me in a place where I'm more affected than usual by my GF behaviors and I'm fearful for the future. Thank you for this update...it sounds to me as if you still have not addressed your concerns with her. Although it is good that you realize that you are focusing on a smaller part of the relationship, it sounds as if there are needs that are not being met....can you discuss those with her or are you afraid to bring those up?
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Post by toorational on Mar 9, 2020 11:24:05 GMT
Well we did have discussions in the past about my concerns but it's hard to bring this up. She doesn't like "couple talk" too much and I always feel "needy" when I bring up my needs. Any neediness or clinginess also has a tendency to push her away as she's said herself. It's the dreaded negative feedback loop that we sometimes fall into. I detect her getting more distant, I ask for more affection from her, that turns her off and pushes her away, I get even more desperate for her affection and that pushes her even more away, etc.
Typical stuff. We've been somewhat successful at avoiding that dreaded loop though and the key has been for me to voice my needs, rather than complaining about stuff. So for example I'll say things like "I'm vulnerable lately and I really need your affection" rather than say "You've been distant lately and I feel neglected".
But even though we've improved our relationship, deep down inside I have my doubts about the future. You should be able to rely on your partner. But I'm afraid that if I run into a particular difficult time and I really need her more than usual, instead of getting her support, she might get especially distant. But it might be my anxiety talking, in the past she's been supportive when I felt a bit depressed. But still, every time I ask for her support, I feel like I'm losing "attraction points" and at some point the bank will be at zero.
Anyhow, enough ranting. What triggered me to write the post above what a small episode Saturday night when I was especially vulnerable and she happened to be distant that night. So that triggered me big time (I mostly was just being down). She noticed it and we talked about it the next morning. I wasn't proud and explained how I got hurt by her distance the night prior. She had a good reaction and have been more affectionate since. So I'll focus on the evidence rather than my (perhaps unfounded) fears.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 9, 2020 12:05:51 GMT
Well we did have discussions in the past about my concerns but it's hard to bring this up. She doesn't like "couple talk" too much and I always feel "needy" when I bring up my needs. Any neediness or clinginess also has a tendency to push her away as she's said herself. It's the dreaded negative feedback loop that we sometimes fall into. I detect her getting more distant, I ask for more affection from her, that turns her off and pushes her away, I get even more desperate for her affection and that pushes her even more away, etc. Typical stuff. We've been somewhat successful at avoiding that dreaded loop though and the key has been for me to voice my needs, rather than complaining about stuff. So for example I'll say things like "I'm vulnerable lately and I really need your affection" rather than say "You've been distant lately and I feel neglected". But even though we've improved our relationship, deep down inside I have my doubts about the future. You should be able to rely on your partner. But I'm afraid that if I run into a particular difficult time and I really need her more than usual, instead of getting her support, she might get especially distant. But it might be my anxiety talking, in the past she's been supportive when I felt a bit depressed. But still, every time I ask for her support, I feel like I'm losing "attraction points" and at some point the bank will be at zero. Anyhow, enough ranting. What triggered me to write the post above what a small episode Saturday night when I was especially vulnerable and she happened to be distant that night. So that triggered me big time (I mostly was just being down). She noticed it and we talked about it the next morning. I wasn't proud and explained how I got hurt by her distance the night prior. She had a good reaction and have been more affectionate since. So I'll focus on the evidence rather than my (perhaps unfounded) fears. A good way to express needs is to start with the positive...”I really love when we spend time together doing x, recently I have felt that we haven’t spent as much time doing x and that has made me feel y”. It is good that you see improvements....is she open to seeing someone together?
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