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Post by number9 on Sept 30, 2019 18:32:55 GMT
As mostly AP right now (but working on it), when I feel like someone has wronged me — which isn't often, but when it does happen — I expect them to apologize, put in a little more effort in, etc to show they meant the apology and weren't just saying it for selfish reasons. When I feel like I've wronged friends, I do this, maybe overboard to try to show them I feel really bad. I don't think I've had this in romantic relationships until recently w/ a FA (and it was just a misunderstanding but it violated a triggered space — reflecting what I now realize was past trauma). Seems secures would accept the apology (if warranted) and move forward. Seems when there's conflict at all with FAs/DAs, they avoid — but does apply to all sides of conflict (if "they caused" or "other caused" or "mutual situation")? Also, how does each style like for it to be resolved? I don't know if my resolution tactics are just "normal" or "human" or AP — so trying to figure that out at its core. Attachments:
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Post by dhali on Sept 30, 2019 19:26:00 GMT
I think there’s just a general aversion to conflict. You can’t be healthy together.
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Post by eternalsunshine on Sept 30, 2019 20:27:19 GMT
Hey Caroline,
I’m confused by the wording of your post. Did you cause the hurt and apologize or did they?
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Post by dhali on Sept 30, 2019 21:11:47 GMT
Getting a real apology is nice. It consists of an I’m sorry, and an understanding of the impact, and how you plan on fixing it moving forward. That’s it. No excuses. No explaining. Just I’m sorry I did x, and I feel badly on its effect on y. What I plan on doing in the future to address this is a.
If someone does that for me, it’s likely to be ancient history. What more can you ask for?
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Post by dhali on Sept 30, 2019 21:51:20 GMT
I think your guilt, or being on eggshells is unhealthy. If your apology is sincere, there’s nothing left you can do. If someone wants to have a poor opinion of you, that their business. If you act humanly, and with virtue, there’s nothing left to do.
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Post by iz42 on Sept 30, 2019 22:48:13 GMT
That sounds particularly confusing because you've never actually addressed the situation with him in a conversation. It's easy to speculate about what he's thinking right now but I still wouldn't assume that you know why he's upset until he tells you himself. In my experience with my FA ex, he avoided any kind of conflict no matter what side he was on.
I agree with dhali that you've done all you could, but that's not easy because it means you're left wondering what went wrong. I can see how it would be easy to blame yourself, but this is extreme avoidance and walking on eggshells isn't going to fix it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 23:01:41 GMT
i think it's an AP-insecure thing. I was the same way - there's alot of fear of backlash or judgment or abandonment or conflict or all of the above when I've caused a "problem". I would apologize, perhaps excessively, to demonstrate i care abt that person and that he/she comes first and/or distance myself psychologically from that person because now I know i've fucked something up and no longer "good". I think fundamentally, it is not so much that I feel bad the other person is hurt (that's important yes) but more of feeling shame that I could have done something 'not right' and that i could have hurt someone else simply by being me.
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Post by iz42 on Sept 30, 2019 23:19:48 GMT
Could you ask him to have a phone conversation with you?
My ex broke up with me after I said some hurtful things that I later regretted. I still blame myself for not thinking more carefully about what I was saying, and I have apologized many times. I'm not sure he's ever really forgiven me. Ultimately, I have to accept what happened and move on. I believe that the breakup was inevitable and I just sped things up. If I had been less AP I wouldn't have allowed the cycling and I would have broken up with him instead.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 3:29:58 GMT
I've since come to realize that when I was obsessing about making amends and being contrite, I was actually unavailable as a person to the other party. I was further making it about me (forgive me, forgive me! validate me and see how good I am as a person), not about the other person's reality and state. By constantly trying to "remedy" the situation, I was asking for forgiveness, but not real forgiveness, as a way to tip the scale in my favor by putting myself in a lowly spot. I was trying to coerce them passively into forgiving and validating me e.g., it's ok, i still love you, it's not a big deal etc etc etc, so that I can be absolved and I don't have to feel bad anymore. I'm simultaneously trying to get forgiveness for what I've done and getting validation/acknowledgement in general for how great a person i am. This takes away the attention from the hurt party, and makes it all about me. but it should not be. if i hurt someone else, even if unintentionally, it is about them, what they need, and what can be done for them. it's about protecting the space between us and being focused on that, not on me and how I can absolve myself. this focus on "me" comes from a place of weakness and lack, and insecurity.
I choose to develop and trust in myself that I am a good person, and that I do not intentionally hurt others. The way I am might be hurtful to others' sensitivities, and I acknowledge that, but I do not take responsibility for everyone's triggers. I can adjust the course of being when with the other person, but if that adjustment comes at too huge a cost to me as a person/individual, I have no interest in keeping that relationship as the center of my life. sometimes, the interacting requires so much adjustment that it feels like a tradeoff with my soul - that i cannot accept. if the other person has so many sensibilities that are just offended so easily by me being me, it is fine not to be in each other's lives. I do not wish to burden others with who I am as a person, no matter how much I love them. this focus on "me" comes from a place of self-acceptance, boundaries, and standards. It also comes from a place of choosing for myself what kind of partner, friends or romantic or work, I wish to be for someone else. If this model I chose does not work for some, then it is ok, we have no need to partner up but there are no hard feelings there.
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Post by stu on Oct 1, 2019 4:12:38 GMT
That sounds particularly confusing because you've never actually addressed the situation with him in a conversation. It's easy to speculate about what he's thinking right now but I still wouldn't assume that you know why he's upset until he tells you himself. In my experience with my FA ex, he avoided any kind of conflict no matter what side he was on. I agree with dhali that you've done all you could, but that's not easy because it means you're left wondering what went wrong. I can see how it would be easy to blame yourself, but this is extreme avoidance and walking on eggshells isn't going to fix it. Totally – it's super confusing. I feel like if we saw each other we could just talk about it but that's kind of hard when someone is avoiding you/it. I'll admit that me avoiding it / walking on eggshells trying to be normal for the first 2 weeks wasn't helpful, but his avoidance isn't helping. I feel like he'll probably either just wait until a ton of time has passed or just write me off completely. You handled it a lot better then me haha , as long as you don't overly attempt to reach out and give then a chance to reconnect you should be okay. If they want to do that then you both will talk then. But unfortunately we can't control if they want to or not. Or know if they do or when. I would have loved to just talk once with my FA to just properly put things in one place. But apparently even that was too much. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 1, 2019 5:43:26 GMT
Yeah I agree. If it does end up being a deactivation (and not something else), all he really wants is space and bit of light friendly contact until he can reconnect. Too much apologizing can feel like pressure to reconnect before he's ready (and he may not even be upset with you). You could ask him about India to test the waters. Other than that, just keep enough distance to protect yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 23:43:03 GMT
I've since come to realize that when I was obsessing about making amends and being contrite, I was actually unavailable as a person to the other party. I was further making it about me (forgive me, forgive me! validate me and see how good I am as a person), not about the other person's reality and state. By constantly trying to "remedy" the situation, I was asking for forgiveness, but not real forgiveness, as a way to tip the scale in my favor by putting myself in a lowly spot. I was trying to coerce them passively into forgiving and validating me e.g., it's ok, i still love you, it's not a big deal etc etc etc, so that I can be absolved and I don't have to feel bad anymore. I'm simultaneously trying to get forgiveness for what I've done and getting validation/acknowledgement in general for how great a person i am. This takes away the attention from the hurt party, and makes it all about me. but it should not be. if i hurt someone else, even if unintentionally, it is about them, what they need, and what can be done for them. it's about protecting the space between us and being focused on that, not on me and how I can absolve myself. this focus on "me" comes from a place of weakness and lack, and insecurity. I choose to develop and trust in myself that I am a good person, and that I do not intentionally hurt others. The way I am might be hurtful to others' sensitivities, and I acknowledge that, but I do not take responsibility for everyone's triggers. I can adjust the course of being when with the other person, but if that adjustment comes at too huge a cost to me as a person/individual, I have no interest in keeping that relationship as the center of my life. sometimes, the interacting requires so much adjustment that it feels like a tradeoff with my soul - that i cannot accept. if the other person has so many sensibilities that are just offended so easily by me being me, it is fine not to be in each other's lives. I do not wish to burden others with who I am as a person, no matter how much I love them. this focus on "me" comes from a place of self-acceptance, boundaries, and standards. It also comes from a place of choosing for myself what kind of partner, friends or romantic or work, I wish to be for someone else. If this model I chose does not work for some, then it is ok, we have no need to partner up but there are no hard feelings there. This was super helpful to read your insight. I’ve thought about and realized similar things in regards to my actions. Basically in some cases I’m acting out of insecurity (which is what got me into this whole conflict mess I think) or acting in a way that’s seeking validation. All from a place of weakness, lack, and insecurity as you said... and all from a place of not fully being able to show up and stand up for myself not to mention others. I imagine even as we learn to recognize this - as I have this summer - we still make those mistakes and setbacks. Hoping they’re just a lot less. I feel I’m similar in that I can and am willing to adjust course not to adapt to other’s needs and styles, and am learning what’s too much of a cost to me. My cost threshold is high, which I’m ok with, but I need respect in return otherwise it’s too easy for me to go down that I’m being used / taken advantage of path... but maybe that’s also a root of insecurity. I’d like to think at the nearer end of this path is one where my feet are rooted in more security, and that even when I make a mistake I’m not hell bent out of shape in full panicking insecure perfectionist form as I have been in the past and can do even now. Thanks for sharing this valuable insight again. Yes, I do still make mistakes here and there, but I'm much less critical of myself now when I do it. This really helps me stop obsessing and making me even more unavailable to others. I recognise now that when I am fully present, many people in my life could not really be that way and so it was affronting for them. This has mad me seriously question myself as I was growing up, and hence the insecure attachment style was made worse. I have since pledged to show up fully for myself first and foremost, and my full self to meet others, but if they do not do the same, I recognize and categorize that relationship as limited - and that is ok. not all relationships need to be full on, no matter how much i'm attracted to that person. needing respect and reciprocity in return in order not to be resentful or feel used is NORMAL. insecures, and probably more specifically APS, are more likely to reach the point of no return with resentment because they do not assert that need early enough, or give too much until they explode in resentment. what I have done is to lower the cost threshold by alot and then needing respect/reciprocity off the bat i.e., immediately. i match what is given, and I demand exactly what I want right from the beginning. It is a harsh approach, but it truly raises my standards and guard myself better. I'm ok with everyone I meet, and I give them the benefit of the doubt, but I no longer make excuses for them nor justify their behaviors based on my understanding and empathy of their situation at my own expense. my level of relationships is set by the interactions they provide, not by what I wish to have with them; i apply this to myself as well. when you fully show up for yourself and for others, you will recognize and understand that you come from a place of good intentions, integrity, and love. If you make a mistake, it is only human and you will course correct and make amends in natural ways without harping on it, and alot of insecure behaviors will fall away. the first step is to fully show up to yourself for yourself, and it'll all come in time. |
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Post by stu on Oct 2, 2019 1:31:39 GMT
This was super helpful to read your insight. I’ve thought about and realized similar things in regards to my actions. Basically in some cases I’m acting out of insecurity (which is what got me into this whole conflict mess I think) or acting in a way that’s seeking validation. All from a place of weakness, lack, and insecurity as you said... and all from a place of not fully being able to show up and stand up for myself not to mention others. I imagine even as we learn to recognize this - as I have this summer - we still make those mistakes and setbacks. Hoping they’re just a lot less. I feel I’m similar in that I can and am willing to adjust course not to adapt to other’s needs and styles, and am learning what’s too much of a cost to me. My cost threshold is high, which I’m ok with, but I need respect in return otherwise it’s too easy for me to go down that I’m being used / taken advantage of path... but maybe that’s also a root of insecurity. I’d like to think at the nearer end of this path is one where my feet are rooted in more security, and that even when I make a mistake I’m not hell bent out of shape in full panicking insecure perfectionist form as I have been in the past and can do even now. Thanks for sharing this valuable insight again. Yes, I do still make mistakes here and there, but I'm much less critical of myself now when I do it. This really helps me stop obsessing and making me even more unavailable to others. I recognise now that when I am fully present, many people in my life could not really be that way and so it was affronting for them. This has mad me seriously question myself as I was growing up, and hence the insecure attachment style was made worse. I have since pledged to show up fully for myself first and foremost, and my full self to meet others, but if they do not do the same, I recognize and categorize that relationship as limited - and that is ok. not all relationships need to be full on, no matter how much i'm attracted to that person. needing respect and reciprocity in return in order not to be resentful or feel used is NORMAL. insecures, and probably more specifically APS, are more likely to reach the point of no return with resentment because they do not assert that need early enough, or give too much until they explode in resentment. what I have done is to lower the cost threshold by alot and then needing respect/reciprocity off the bat i.e., immediately. i match what is given, and I demand exactly what I want right from the beginning. It is a harsh approach, but it truly raises my standards and guard myself better. I'm ok with everyone I meet, and I give them the benefit of the doubt, but I no longer make excuses for them nor justify their behaviors based on my understanding and empathy of their situation at my own expense. my level of relationships is set by the interactions they provide, not by what I wish to have with them; i apply this to myself as well. when you fully show up for yourself and for others, you will recognize and understand that you come from a place of good intentions, integrity, and love. If you make a mistake, it is only human and you will course correct and make amends in natural ways without harping on it, and alot of insecure behaviors will fall away. the first step is to fully show up to yourself for yourself, and it'll all come in time. Wow that was incredibly inspiring and helpful thanks for sharing that. I needed to hear that myself. Even with empathy and understanding we can't suffer at our own expense to go through it. Because it's not fair to do to ourselves. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 2, 2019 2:07:18 GMT
I feel I’m similar in that I can and am willing to adjust course not to adapt to other’s needs and styles, and am learning what’s too much of a cost to me. My cost threshold is high, which I’m ok with, but I need respect in return otherwise it’s too easy for me to go down that I’m being used / taken advantage of path... but maybe that’s also a root of insecurity. I’d like to think at the nearer end of this path is one where my feet are rooted in more security, and that even when I make a mistake I’m not hell bent out of shape in full panicking insecure perfectionist form as I have been in the past and can do even now. Thanks for sharing this valuable insight again. Heya Caroline! <3 Hope you are having a good day so far. Just wanted to add that its so much harder to make judgment calls when all you've got is one deactivation (and no cycle back yet) to work with too. Like if you'd been together long enough to see the patterns of leaving and returning, and they came to feel predictable, some people might find adequate relationship security in that. You're still waiting to find out of he's really done or not, and that really sucks for anybody  |
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Post by stu on Oct 2, 2019 17:18:24 GMT
I feel I’m similar in that I can and am willing to adjust course not to adapt to other’s needs and styles, and am learning what’s too much of a cost to me. My cost threshold is high, which I’m ok with, but I need respect in return otherwise it’s too easy for me to go down that I’m being used / taken advantage of path... but maybe that’s also a root of insecurity. I’d like to think at the nearer end of this path is one where my feet are rooted in more security, and that even when I make a mistake I’m not hell bent out of shape in full panicking insecure perfectionist form as I have been in the past and can do even now. Thanks for sharing this valuable insight again. Heya Caroline! <3 Hope you are having a good day so far. Just wanted to add that its so much harder to make judgment calls when all you've got is one deactivation (and no cycle back yet) to work with too. Like if you'd been together long enough to see the patterns of leaving and returning, and they came to feel predictable, some people might find adequate relationship security in that. You're still waiting to find out of he's really done or not, and that really sucks for anybody If someone de activates and ghosts you for over a month or longer is there any real relationship at that point though? I guess a friendship or more distant uncommitted thing could make sense. But how do people manage to be in serious relationship like that? De activation for a few days or maybe a week of no contact randomly when an FA is feeling overwhelmed or shut down could make sense of holding together the emotional energy of that trust and bond together ,maybe a longer de activation with saying they need some time to themselves for a bit or something would make sense too. but after a certain point it just seems like an ended relationship until they randomly decide to show up again. |
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