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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 15:58:02 GMT
Yes, Bugs Bunny! Looney Tunes. And the rescue dog thing may have merit but not for an emotionally available relationship.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 1, 2019 16:29:52 GMT
@inmourning the irony isn’t lost, lol. it feels like the episode of Bugs Bunny where he’s in the ammunition factory tapping bombs with a hammer... The insanity is knowing about this stuff and still putting myself in harm’s way. For what it’s worth, I think both the rescue dog thing and your FA cat tnr9 , have merit. My cat is loyal to me because his basic needs are met..they are very simple.....2 cans of cat food a day plus water and just letting him be. He doesn’t have much of anything beyond the instinctual part of his brain (let’s be honest...make a fist...put a brain in it...that is a cat’s brain....super small). He is a permanent 2-3 year old child...if there was any human equivalent. Our relationship is pretty straightforward.....there isn’t any game playing....there isn’t any covert messages....it is all out there. Completely different with humans.....I think we “want” other humans to be so straightforward and easy....and we think we “should” be....which is why we skip over the whole...let me find out about who you really are and instead, let me analyze you via a myriad of online personality tests, webinars, videos, books....we want people to be simple without having to do any work in getting to truly “know” each other. Then there is that awesome (rolls eyes) counter perspective that if someone knows me, they will take advantage of me..,so nothing is straightforward or easy....we wear masks...we hide our true selfs and our true intentions...we avoid conflict...we give off mixed messages. Humans are truly nothing like dogs and cats.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 1, 2019 16:37:59 GMT
True..I think for APs...it is being emotionally unavailable to “self” since all the emotions are fixated on meeting the other person’s perceived needs. It's also emotionally unavailable to the partner. If anyone thinks that avoidants naturally gravitate to healthy emotionally available people, who can meet their unmet emotional needs, they haven't been reading the literature. Someone who is anxious preoccupied or ambivalent is in survival about their own unmet needs. They may appear emotionally available ( to themselves) but really, emotional nerd does not equate to emotional availability to another. It's often quite transactional even if it appears altruistic and "selfless". Selfless love is for children and pets, but mature human love and relating in a reciprocal relationship requires the self of two people, stable and secure at least to the point of having adequate love and regard for themselves. It's been said more than once that in order to love, understand and support another you must first be able to do that for yourself. Avoidants do not gravitate toward healthy partners. AP don't either. People pursue their shadows, really. Light up the shadow, transform it, and you'll pursue someone else who has done the same. I think if we pull back the curtain...the source for an AP is being unavailable to self...that is the driver....being unavailable to our partner is a result of being unavailable to ourself.....but we keep thinking...if I could just figure him out or her out...if I could get to know what he/she needs...then he/she will become available and reciprocate. It is flawed logic from a very young age,...good intentions...but missing the mark on how much influence we truly have. I am first and foremost “other” focused....it takes a heck of a lot for me to turn the attention back to me and see where I have not been there for myself. But I truly think for an AP, unavailability to others is just a symptom and unavailability to self is the root.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 16:57:13 GMT
It's also emotionally unavailable to the partner. If anyone thinks that avoidants naturally gravitate to healthy emotionally available people, who can meet their unmet emotional needs, they haven't been reading the literature. Someone who is anxious preoccupied or ambivalent is in survival about their own unmet needs. They may appear emotionally available ( to themselves) but really, emotional nerd does not equate to emotional availability to another. It's often quite transactional even if it appears altruistic and "selfless". Selfless love is for children and pets, but mature human love and relating in a reciprocal relationship requires the self of two people, stable and secure at least to the point of having adequate love and regard for themselves. It's been said more than once that in order to love, understand and support another you must first be able to do that for yourself. Avoidants do not gravitate toward healthy partners. AP don't either. People pursue their shadows, really. Light up the shadow, transform it, and you'll pursue someone else who has done the same. I think if we pull back the curtain...the source for an AP is being unavailable to self...that is the driver....being unavailable to our partner is a result of being unavailable to ourself.....but we keep thinking...if I could just figure him out or her out...if I could get to know what he/she needs...then he/she will become available and reciprocate. It is flawed logic from a very young age,...good intentions...but missing the mark on how much influence we truly have. I am first and foremost “other” focused....it takes a heck of a lot for me to turn the attention back to me and see where I have not been there for myself. But I truly think for an AP, unavailability to others is just a symptom and unavailability to self is the root. What I'm saying, is that these entanglements involve two emotionally unavailable people. The dual dysfunction enables each participant to think, feel, behave in pattern. Emotionally unavailable patterns.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 1, 2019 18:58:31 GMT
@inmourning the irony isn’t lost, lol. it feels like the episode of Bugs Bunny where he’s in the ammunition factory tapping bombs with a hammer... The insanity is knowing about this stuff and still putting myself in harm’s way. For what it’s worth, I think both the rescue dog thing and your FA cat tnr9, have merit. That's not insanity, though. Awareness is one step, but there's still reconditioning the nervous system and healing, which can take years. In the interim, you have to keep trying and learning from it and making modifications along the way, but that involves continuing to make some "mistakes" along the way, too. I think insanity is awareness with zero desire to want to help yourself get better Then you're stuck in that ACME ammunition factory!
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Post by alexandra on Dec 1, 2019 18:59:25 GMT
We hadn't heard about the cat in a little while! A welcome update.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 19:04:58 GMT
@inmourning the irony isn’t lost, lol. it feels like the episode of Bugs Bunny where he’s in the ammunition factory tapping bombs with a hammer... The insanity is knowing about this stuff and still putting myself in harm’s way. For what it’s worth, I think both the rescue dog thing and your FA cat tnr9 , have merit. That's not insanity, though. Awareness is one step, but there's still reconditioning the nervous system and healing, which can take years. In the interim, you have to keep trying and learning from it and making modifications along the way, but that involves continuing to make some "mistakes" along the way, too. I think insanity is awareness with zero desire to want to help yourself get better Then you're stuck in that ACME ammunition factory! I think it's a wee little bit of insanity if someone admits "Hey, I have issues with caretaking and longing for unavailable parents, and here I am longing for an unavailable partner, but I'm not in therapy for my own emotional unavailability and unresolved stuff right now I'm just trying to figure out what I need to do to help my unavailable "partner" become more available. " Still trying the same thing (focusing on what's wrong with the other) and hoping for different results. That's the popular definition of insanity in the self-help world I think.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 1, 2019 19:13:27 GMT
@inmourning, yes, I think we're saying the same thing. Being aware with no desire to change or help yourself keeps you looped in endless repetition. mrob is trying, it's just a slow process that doesn't all come at once after awareness.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 19:29:57 GMT
@inmourning , yes, I think we're saying the same thing. Being aware with no desire to change or help yourself keeps you looped in endless repetition. mrob is trying, it's just a slow process that doesn't all come at once after awareness. Yes I agree but I was actually referring back to the irony of unavailable people pursuing unavailable people and focusing on how unavailable other people are. That's the insanity that is going under the radar here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 20:09:47 GMT
I think it's a wee little bit of insanity if someone admits "Hey, I have issues with caretaking and longing for unavailable parents, and here I am longing for an unavailable partner, but I'm not in therapy for my own emotional unavailability and unresolved stuff right now I'm just trying to figure out what I need to do to help my unavailable "partner" become more available. " Still trying the same thing (focusing on what's wrong with the other) and hoping for different results. That's the popular definition of insanity in the self-help world I think. This is kind of an aside but a related comment. Part of me wonders if the longing is due to imagining that the avoidant partner is perfect because the avoidant won’t let the other person know them at an intimate level. When someone does let you get to know them, you see their flaws. I have been put on a pedestal before someone really gets to know me and it’s the opposite of flattery. I tend to run when I sense this because the other person wants to create who I am from their imagination instead of truly getting to know me, good and bad. It isn't instinctive for an avoidant to know and be known, but I can say for sure that I really feel great about the people closest to me knowing my flaws and shortcomings, as well as my strengths. I agree that idealization feels negative, and even unsafe. But it isn't instinctive to meet that with vulnerability and trust. It's all a bit messy when we're talking insecurity and the ways in which we all hide.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 22:39:13 GMT
It's not at all easy to confront the pain, sadness, loneliness and fear in oneself, but that's what we all have to do- ambivalent (AP), disorganized (FA) and Avoidant (DA) alike. Securely attached people do as well. It's a huge part of the human experience whether the pain comes in the form of dysfunctional relationships, career failures, poor health, loss, whatever. You can't fix what's going on inside by controlling or obsessing about what's going on outside. You have to face it, and deal with it, and not put it all on other people. That's true for all people of any attachment style.
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Post by mrob on Dec 1, 2019 23:03:12 GMT
Interestingly, after a few weeks, I’ve ended up on the anxious side of this. I’m the one that’s doing the self soothing. The words of @janedoe in another thread where she talks about the challenge of pulling back the curtain made me gasp at the time but has proven to be true (as it has been before).
I say the rescue dog or cat thing rings true because this attachment stuff is mostly learned so early that it acts on our instincts, our subconscious, which is how animals operate. How did those of us here act before becoming aware? I’d say it was automatic, just as a mistreated cat or dog. All of my animals over the years have come to me as strays or out of shelters, and after becoming aware of my behaviour through attachment theory, I can see the similarities.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 0:37:06 GMT
Interestingly, after a few weeks, I’ve ended up on the anxious side of this. I’m the one that’s doing the self soothing. The words of @janedoe in another thread where she talks about the challenge of pulling back the curtain made me gasp at the time but has proven to be true (as it has been before). I say the rescue dog or cat thing rings true because this attachment stuff is mostly learned so early that it acts on our instincts, our subconscious, which is how animals operate. How did those of us here act before becoming aware? I’d say it was automatic, just as a mistreated cat or dog. All of my animals over the years have come to me as strays or out of shelters, and after becoming aware of my behaviour through attachment theory, I can see the similarities. Of course this is true and extremely apparent to me now that I'm in SE therapy to deal with exactly that. Instinct underlies it all. Becoming emotionally available means transcending that. When I see my cat behaving instinctually it's amazing and fun, fascinating and sometimes frustrating. But it's not a model for healthy human intimate relationships.
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Post by mrob on Dec 2, 2019 5:19:33 GMT
No doubt, it’s not a model, but I can see the similarities with certainly the FA attachment style.
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Post by serenity on Dec 2, 2019 8:42:49 GMT
Emotionally unavailable can and very often is "pursuing a relationship with an emotionally unavailable partner." And then putting it all on the alleged partner for being unavailable. Both people mask their own pain, in different ways. I think what is ignored here, is that avoidant partners present themselves as emotionally available and highly attentive during the honeymoon phase of a relationship, when partners fall in love. The attraction occurs because they love you and meet your needs, not because they do not. Partners fall in love with the person presented during courtship, not the unavailable person they finally reveal when the mask slips off. Secure relationships start the same way in my experiences. I never encountered avoidants in early youth, I experienced 20 years of secure relationships with people who were exactly how they presented themselves in courtship. I don't buy into the victim blaming thing at all. Many people are just good at hiding their unavailability during courtship. Where i do agree with you wholeheartedly, is that people can feel most stuck when a partner `flips' after courtship and they mimic behaviors similar to a neglectful, unavailable, or abusive parent. A person might have 20 years of conditioning from early childhood that trained them how `to behave' in a state of powerlessness, that doesn't relate to their actual power in the current situation. They might feel they can't leave, assert boundaries, assert any power at all, when they actually can.
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