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Post by mrob on Dec 2, 2019 9:19:23 GMT
serenity, I don’t want this. It’s skewed my life in pretty drastic ways. I try to have reasonable relationships. It’s not some sadistic game I’m playing. I’d rather a) not want companionship or b) be normal. Who wants to be a rabbit in the headlights when someone wants to escalate at their pace, with cohabitation and eventually marry? Not me. But, I’m not, and I have to accept my limitations and hope that someone will not find my boundaries too stifling while I move towards the centre.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 13:51:06 GMT
Emotionally unavailable can and very often is "pursuing a relationship with an emotionally unavailable partner." And then putting it all on the alleged partner for being unavailable. Both people mask their own pain, in different ways. I think what is ignored here, is that avoidant partners present themselves as emotionally available and highly attentive during the honeymoon phase of a relationship, when partners fall in love. The attraction occurs because they love you and meet your needs, not because they do not. Partners fall in love with the person presented during courtship, not the unavailable person they finally reveal when the mask slips off. Secure relationships start the same way in my experiences. I never encountered avoidants in early youth, I experienced 20 years of secure relationships with people who were exactly how they presented themselves in courtship. I don't buy into the victim blaming thing at all. Many people are just good at hiding their unavailability during courtship. Where i do agree with you wholeheartedly, is that people can feel most stuck when a partner `flips' after courtship and they mimic behaviors similar to a neglectful, unavailable, or abusive parent. A person might have 20 years of conditioning from early childhood that trained them how `to behave' in a state of powerlessness, that doesn't relate to their actual power in the current situation. They might feel they can't leave, assert boundaries, assert any power at all, when they actually can. Are you unable to identify early signs of dysfunction in these relationships, on both sides? Those who recover from their own anxious (or any insecure ) attachment styles tend to show a pretty consistent pattern of being able to identify clear red flags in themselves and the unavailable partner which indicate an unhealthy pattern. These indicators are usually in the form of faulty (limiting) beliefs about themselves and about relationships, problems with boundaries, problems with self esteem, problems with communicating, problems with identifying and upholding their core values and needs. Many people, once they come through their denial, are able to identify these issues within themselves and free themselves from the anxious/avoidant trap. A good example of early warning signs is in the story of the OP in this thread. This relationship began when she was already involved with a partner) and therefore unavailable herself) - that was just the beginning in a long line of dysfunctional characteristics to this relationship. This example does not occur in isolation. Many of these relationships also go in another direction of being precipitous and follow a "love bombing" pattern. Or, a pattern of contact that seems adequate to an insecure AP but which would be inadequate and lacking, to a person of secure attachment. AP tend to settle for far less than an emotionally available person would. Identifying one's own obstacles to healthy relating is key to healthy relating, and choosing a healthy partner. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 1:08:28 GMT
Interestingly, after a few weeks, I’ve ended up on the anxious side of this. I’m the one that’s doing the self soothing. The words of @janedoe in another thread where she talks about the challenge of pulling back the curtain made me gasp at the time but has proven to be true (as it has been before). I say the rescue dog or cat thing rings true because this attachment stuff is mostly learned so early that it acts on our instincts, our subconscious, which is how animals operate. How did those of us here act before becoming aware? I’d say it was automatic, just as a mistreated cat or dog. All of my animals over the years have come to me as strays or out of shelters, and after becoming aware of my behaviour through attachment theory, I can see the similarities. What about pulling back the curtain did you relate to? You’ve said before you want what you want. Do you think you’re picky or do you think you just need someone to go at a slower less invasive pace? Or maybe neither, but I feel like I’m picky as F. AND I need someone to take it easy with me. The only ones willing to go slowly seem to not mind because they don’t want intimacy anyway. Anyone who pushes me will only see the cloud of smoke I leave behind as I speed away. Just kidding, I casually walk. They don’t scare me. But I won’t put up with it. I'm curious at the use of word "invasive"; this is not a judgment, just something I'm curious about because i've been mulling over what is considered "respectful". If someone asks for more, I might FEEL invaded, but it is not invasive. How do you differentiate between someone asking for something reasonable (in general) but it's not something you're comfortable with and feel invaded by? At some point, when you ask for me, how do you know that you're not being the "invasive" one? I ask because my current partner has brought up moving in to his place next year. While I feel happy that it is a sign of furthering commitment, my immediate reaction was nope can do. (o.O")!!! I felt pretty upset that I had to take on more costs if I had move in - driving to work (now I walk to work), moving in without an engagement, it's his property not a shared thing (meaning I could be cast out and homeless), giving up my safe space that I think is perfect. I felt like my space and sovereignty were invaded by this request that seemed to be all about his convenience and absolutely none of it is mine (except seeing him every night). I know it's not completely rational though (we talked about this), but I felt like it was a very invasive and unfair request. I recognized though, that he was not being invasive, just that I had immediately felt invaded by it. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 3, 2019 2:55:02 GMT
Interestingly, after a few weeks, I’ve ended up on the anxious side of this. I’m the one that’s doing the self soothing. The words of @janedoe in another thread where she talks about the challenge of pulling back the curtain made me gasp at the time but has proven to be true (as it has been before). I say the rescue dog or cat thing rings true because this attachment stuff is mostly learned so early that it acts on our instincts, our subconscious, which is how animals operate. How did those of us here act before becoming aware? I’d say it was automatic, just as a mistreated cat or dog. All of my animals over the years have come to me as strays or out of shelters, and after becoming aware of my behaviour through attachment theory, I can see the similarities. What about pulling back the curtain did you relate to? You’ve said before you want what you want. Do you think you’re picky or do you think you just need someone to go at a slower less invasive pace? Or maybe neither, but I feel like I’m picky as F. AND I need someone to take it easy with me. The only ones willing to go slowly seem to not mind because they don’t want intimacy anyway. Anyone who pushes me will only see the cloud of smoke I leave behind as I speed away. Just kidding, I casually walk. They don’t scare me. But I won’t put up with it. For the life of me I've looked for that post, but I can't find it @janedoe . Paraphrasing, of course, you said something about liking the challenge of breaking through the outer shell to the soft centre. Picky and slow..... I think that's where I am, too. I'm not what most women want anyway, so I've never had much attention on dating sites or in real life (summon the violins!) so it's a battle to get someone to talk to me in the first place. I have to mention gender dynamics. If I don't pursue, they disappear. I have to do the work. I have to take the initial risks. I've been privy to the attention women get on those sites, and I know what I get. I have to stand out. The point that I'm making is that there aren't that many to sort through. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 3, 2019 6:04:35 GMT
I have to mention gender dynamics. If I don't pursue, they disappear. I have to do the work. I have to take the initial risks. This is generally true, and I'd like to give a perspective why that isn't just gender roles socialized. Most guys in my area in my age group who are dating online these days, and somewhat in person, put in no effort because they're not seriously looking for more than sex. They perceive sex is widely available due to the quantity of women on these sites (which is more likely perception than truth), so feel no need to put in work or effort (you wouldn't believe my enormous archive of deeply selfish and self-absorbed, cringe-worthy profiles). When I've had to pursue guys in the past, they always turned out to be avoidant (which didn't work against my AP). So I've in turn been trained not to pursue. If there's no equal give and take and the guy disappears when I've dropped the rope that was pulling us both, then he's weeded himself out. |
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Post by serenity on Dec 3, 2019 7:32:48 GMT
Are you unable to identify early signs of dysfunction in these relationships, on both sides? Those who recover from their own anxious (or any insecure ) attachment styles tend to show a pretty consistent pattern of being able to identify clear red flags in themselves and the unavailable partner which indicate an unhealthy pattern. These indicators are usually in the form of faulty (limiting) beliefs about themselves and about relationships, problems with boundaries, problems with self esteem, problems with communicating, problems with identifying and upholding their core values and needs. I do agree with you there, and I think that's a good way to frame things on an attachment style forum. I guess where we differ just a little, is I do believe in the (compassionate) managerial approach when it comes to relationships with unaware people, and I do believe dysfunction can also make a person beautiful. When I started really getting into mental health, discovering my authentic self, and developing extremely good assertive and boundary skills, what I discovered is that very few people are so aware and functional that they meet my standards for engagement. My ex SO of 15 years did, because of his psych degree and his natural gifts with empathy and people. But I was still the more aware one. Do you ever feel that too? Like people around you just can't communicate on your level, see things as deeply? Super awareness is a difficult gift to have, especially if you expect it in others. I sure value people who have it though, like you and others on this forum. I used to avoid a lot of people because lack of awareness bugged me. Now I try to tend to people lovingly like a flock of beautiful emotional creatures, cut out the really bad ones, try to be a positive influence on the good ones. I try not to hold them up to some fictitious measure of perfection, and see them on their level, and appreciate how good they do based on their personal struggles. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 0:11:24 GMT
I'm curious at the use of word "invasive"; this is not a judgment, just something I'm curious about because i've been mulling over what is considered "respectful". If someone asks for more, I might FEEL invaded, but it is not invasive. How do you differentiate between someone asking for something reasonable (in general) but it's not something you're comfortable with and feel invaded by? At some point, when you ask for me, how do you know that you're not being the "invasive" one? I ask because my current partner has brought up moving in to his place next year. While I feel happy that it is a sign of furthering commitment, my immediate reaction was nope can do. (o.O")!!! I felt pretty upset that I had to take on more costs if I had move in - driving to work (now I walk to work), moving in without an engagement, it's his property not a shared thing (meaning I could be cast out and homeless), giving up my safe space that I think is perfect. I felt like my space and sovereignty were invaded by this request that seemed to be all about his convenience and absolutely none of it is mine (except seeing him every night). I know it's not completely rational though (we talked about this), but I felt like it was a very invasive and unfair request. I recognized though, that he was not being invasive, just that I had immediately felt invaded by it. It's both objective and subjective. The more I like you, the less invasive you are likely to be to me. The more I like you, the more you'll energize me and the less you'll drain me. That one is not anyone's particular fault if he is "invasive" to me. For instance, I had someone recently in a non dating situation try to make it a dating situation. I made myself clear it was platonic. He said sure but his actions demonstrated differently. Every text he sent was annoying to me, though he really didn't text that much. I'm super clear and direct with men. They don't listen to my words. My actions match my words. I don't play around, but maybe other women have taught them that women play. If I say no, I'm being coy and my mind can be changed? <<THAT is nothing like me. A clear no is a hard no. If you don't listen, you're invasive. It happens a lot. In other situations where I do like the person, I've had my online / social media behavior watched and questioned = very invasive. I've had my personal time with friends questioned = invasive. I've been asked about who I've been with (i.e. were there any men involved??) = invasive. I was expected to be at many family events, never late, up early...all the while being exhausted from work also. If this happens before living together, I won't even have a place to escape to when living together. I think you have to talk and listen upfront to the other person's way of life and goals. I have no desire to live with anyone and that doesn't mean I won't / can't commit. I do want to get married, but I have been pondering in recent years ways to have space in that situation. I would only want to cohabitate for efficiency purposes. Imagine all the normal but stressful fights you can avoid by having your own space. I also believe people earn trust. I will be slow to share space with you, be vulnerable, trust you. And I find this reasonable. I don't go backwards once I'm really committed, unless you break my trust. I just rarely commit. I understand your perspective in your situation. I trusted someone once enough to rely on him financially for a brief time, and it freaked me out, even at the time before having had experienced too much relationship drama. Can you put yourself in his shoes and see if he is taking on any risk that you aren't? When my current partner added me on facebook in the early days of dating, i felt very invaded. lol. I agree with your judgments on invasion, and that it's invasive particularly when they don't listen. when i give a hard no, i've been told (even by other women) that I'm too harsh, and that I need to be gentler. But ffs, i've already been nice and gentle, and i'm still not heard. this thing really fucked me up for a long time because I thought it was just me who had a problem - poor communication, unpleasant personality, not important enough to be heard, unrespected and unrespectable. Trust is an interesting thing. I now explicitly believe that trust is an outcome of transparency, and if someone has been transparent and conducts themselves with integrity, authenticity and transparency, I then trust that person. Before that, I give the benefit of the doubt that people are decent, but I don't trust them. My ex often said he doesn't like being questioned what he does, doesn't like his things being touched etc because he has a right to privacy. I don't disagree, but guess how many women i saw him texting online and how many extracurricular activities he's got going on? My solution to this issue of using privacy as a euphemism for secrecy is this: I will not ask these questions or do anything that may feel like an invasion (cos people judge these things differently), I will just mind my own business. but if I don't feel like I trust you for whatever reason (lack of information, sharing, understanding, shady texting behavior), I'm out immediately. I don't care if nothing bad has happened, I just leave because I don't feel safe in this relationship; it is your responsibility to decide what you want to do in order to provide security in the relationship and to me. I do the same for myself, and you decide if that's suitable for you. I think he's like you - slow to trust, and don't go backwards once committed. the main risk for him is giving up his space to share with someone else (and I take up alot of space on the couch and bed); I do too, but mine is a rental so it's less personal anyways. but the reliance is more one-sided; he's got family here and the house is his. if we break up, i'm the one who has to find a new place and move etc etc. When I first moved here, the setting up of the house was alot easier than needed to be because of multiple men who offered to help me out, and it was already quite overwhelming. the reliance is what freaks me out, because it places me in a vulnerable position where I cannot afford more losses than I already have, even if he has been wonderful and understanding and supportive. and as you said, you have no more space of your own.
I do want to get married, but I have been pondering in recent years ways to have space in that situation. I would only want to cohabitate for efficiency purposes. Imagine all the normal but stressful fights you can avoid by having your own space. << my solution is to have a big enough place, where there are "individual rooms/spaces". |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 5:12:09 GMT
I'm very happy with the separate living situation solution- separate houses and resources. I think a lot of people in their 40's and 50's are though. I would move in to take care of him when he's old if he needed me to, I'd make it work somehow if he needed me. But we are both avoidant and long term looks happiest with separate spaces. I love it, we both have what we need to feel peaceful and balanced.
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