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Post by serenity on Jan 7, 2020 21:17:28 GMT
The more I learn, the more I realize that I can't get into a relationship in the future unless I know that someone is either secure, or is doing work on themselves. I cannot go blindly into anything without knowing how they cope in relationships, because clearly the beginning of the relationship is fine for an avoidant, but the last thing I need is to meet yet another person who deactivates months down the line because of the unhealed trauma and lack of awareness of themselves, just can't do it again. I feel the same way. Its sobering to realize that `Single and Interested' can mean completely unavailable beyond the honeymoon. And they don't admit this to themselves, even after repeating the pattern over and over. Its draining feeling like I have to know potential dating partners better than they know themselves, and having to second guess normal romantic signaling because it doesn't mean what it looks to mean. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 7, 2020 21:22:19 GMT
No please, this wasn't for you to apologize for, and it absolutely wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular, rather, all the information on this site alone; there are days of information to absorb! This was just me as someone who is not only working on myself, but also thinking about the person in my life, my most recent FA, and how all the things I am learning applies to him, as well as the ex before him. It's a lot of information to take in when I only learned about all this last summer. I am able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together with all the info, but it's also a lot. All the info here explains so much which is great, but it's also heavy and sad as it's so much that a partner alone cannot help with these deep rooted issues and traumas. Please continue posting information as you see fit. It is knowledge and education that we don't learn in school, but it's kind of the most valuable information out there, how to relate to others. No worries nyc, I personally am not here to cause drama or trouble (sometimes hard to tell over net/texting/messaging), and I think it's pertinent to ask others if what I am doing hurts them in some way, because I 'm learning as well, and better to be safe than sorry if you know what I mean. Glad I could be of help. As far as I'm concerned, not a drop of drama caused at all! Just good old sharing of knowledge from everyone, and it's so, so appreciated. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 7, 2020 21:23:05 GMT
"You have someone sitting in front of you who likes you for you, finds you attractive, wants to hang out with you and get to know you better, wants to hold your head if you cry and listen — at any and all points and about anything, who gets and isn't afraid of the facing the dark side, and who you ask to be your girlfriend and who you say gets you, is beautiful, smart, etc. I don't want to go anywhere and I won't unless you tell me that's what you want (and you mean it)... but when you push me away it makes me feel like you don't want me around even though I'm pretty sure that's not true." then another thought/same thing, not to say/send to him just writing out: "Let's start with being you as you are today as I like you for that, being comfortable in that and then moving towards whatever ideal version of yourself you want to be. I'm saying this to myself too, as for me, I always want to be perfect and never feel even close to that" I don't know if that would be helpful to say to him, and I might in some form, at some point, etc — but it's nice to get it out here. That's exactly how I feel. This is really everything in a nutshell for those who love FAs. It's so simple for us, but it seems too much for them though there is a part of them that wants exactly that. The internal system doesn't allow them to have what they want. It's a no win situation which is makes me very sad for the ones who are unaware. I've found, even recently, my ex has hinted at a relationship. I'm only there as a friend, after all my reading there are no illusions. She is in her D-A side with me largely, I can tell. It's not "walking on eggshells" with the hypervigilance anymore, but the inner critic is there, health issues constantly, maelstrom of emotion in her head and barely coping, worrying, rundown (working/stressing) and it comes across to me as the "Flight-freeze" hybrid in that book, where she deliberately is trying to outrun the pain by keeping busy, and then just collapses and needs a break. Although she also displays signs of Fawn (people pleasing, codependency, dependency on abusive parent, but also runs her father down for his abuse), certainly the pieces are fitting together. Also an alcoholic basically, 4-5 nights a week wine drinker, unsure how much, certainly a few glasses a night and binges on weekends off from kids. Back in a day, when I was in a "no contact" period with her, of around 6 weeks, we crossed paths at a local pub event in town. She literally Froze on the spot when she seen me, when she walked into the pub, I was standing there facing the front door she came through, froze for a good 10 seconds or more. Also I noticed "zoning out" sort of like a daydream state on quite a few occasions and her best friend also made a statement on Facebook about that as well, so dissociation definitely there. |
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Post by nyc718 on Jan 7, 2020 21:27:37 GMT
The more I learn, the more I realize that I can't get into a relationship in the future unless I know that someone is either secure, or is doing work on themselves. I cannot go blindly into anything without knowing how they cope in relationships, because clearly the beginning of the relationship is fine for an avoidant, but the last thing I need is to meet yet another person who deactivates months down the line because of the unhealed trauma and lack of awareness of themselves, just can't do it again. I feel the same way. Its sobering to realize that `Single and Interested' can mean completely unavailable beyond the honeymoon. And they don't admit this to themselves, even after repeating the pattern over and over. Its draining feeling like I have to know potential dating partners better than they know themselves, and having to second guess normal romantic signaling because it doesn't mean what it looks to mean. Yes! I had said something to the effect of I feel a loss of innocence in a way! My radar is on high, and there's no more just getting to know someone and being thrilled that things are going so well. It's now, what's your history of relationships, why did it end, how did it end, what kind of work are you doing on yourself? And then watching for any kind of potential red flag and analyzing if it's a deal breaker and/or something to cause a full stop right now. It's disheartening and discouraging honestly. |
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Post by Helsbells on Jan 7, 2020 21:37:46 GMT
Seemingly it's totally linked to the 'flashbacks' ("triggers" that an F-A does not identify with until self aware), which in turn instigates the critical inner voice (low self esteem, negative self talk, literally talking themselves out of the relationship anyway they can) and is tied to whichever of the 4F response combinations you identify with due to the trauma experienced, one or more of these will be instigating responses as opposed to a blend of all 4F responses to a stimuli. Same happened to me, chased me for 15 months via mutual friends, was all over me 8-9/10 attraction level, was talking about the future etc (but was also negative self talking herself openly with low self esteem at the same time), was fawning after me (cooking stuff and bringing it around, 10-20 texts a day etc was very over the top in the beginning), then after I tried to sit calmly and talk about the negative self talk in a centred way, that was the first signs of pullback, then an excuse she had her kids for a month with no days off and was flat out (meanwhile was literal 'people pleasing' strangers running after them), which I questioned after 3 months of dating and said 4 weeks not seeing each other was not really acceptable. We went out to dinner with mutual friends that introduced us, and the next week she blamed her ailing health and that she wanted to work on herself and catch up again in 3 months time hopefully. The more I learn, the more I realize that I can't get into a relationship in the future unless I know that someone is either secure, or is doing work on themselves. I cannot go blindly into anything without knowing how they cope in relationships, because clearly the beginning of the relationship is fine for an avoidant, but the last thing I need is to meet yet another person who deactivates months down the line because of the unhealed trauma and lack of awareness of themselves, just can't do it again. Gosh me neither, my heart couldn't take it again. The relationship with my ex avoidant has changed me forever. Even though I was married to an alcoholic for all those years, I never ever doubted his love for me, and new he had my back, well when sober anyway lol x |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 8, 2020 6:05:28 GMT
I so, so, so hate to post this and I am fully aware that I’m 100% triggered... so I’m sure I’ll regret posting once I calm down. Tonight about an hour or two ago, I texted him saying a nice thing about his week back to work and then asking what his week was like and if he wanted to hang out low-key to break up the work week - cause he’s struggling with work. I thought it was very nice, not threatening, etc... no response. Then I saw 30 minutes ago he viewed my IG story that I had just posted. I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be petty and like I said I’m fully aware that I’m AP triggered right now... but I just don’t get it. Is this the escalation / reality thing mrob you were talking about? If so, is he trying to send me some message by not responding like I don’t want this now even though I just said I did and we were SO, SO close? Or is this him saying back off? Did maybe he take something I said the wrong way? Seems like he would’ve just not responded at all earlier last week or this week. Could it be a self esteem thing? But I thought I made him feel good? I didn’t text him to hang out over the weekend, and our last time together was Wednesday... I guess maybe this is too fast? I just want to understand, cause right now I feel like I should just take this as a “I don’t actually want this.” I don’t know if I should? I know it’s not been that long since I texted but usually when it seems he’s “on” he’ll respond right away like within 15 min. And that he viewed my story just shows he’s on his phone... Again I’m sorry, I’m in full AP mode and trying to curb it... I just want to understand. I guess if we hang out in person again maybe I need to see what he wants out of this relationship - like his expectations? I don’t know... any guidance is helpful. Don't stress Caroline, you haven't done a thing wrong. It could be numerous things, whatever it is, it's all good. He'll get back to ya when he get's back to ya. |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 8, 2020 6:55:45 GMT
caro, you're trying to fill in gaps for information you don't have, and since you're triggered AP, you're projecting the worst possible narrative in there. Maybe take a break and find something either harmlessly distracting or something that makes you feel good about yourself (like, go on a run, or if you're musical then practice some music, or something else you can feel some accomplishment about), and work on some emotional self-regulation right now. You're triggered, and it may be for a reason (who can say right now, but let's assume no response but checking your IG story isn't a secret message), but it's a good opportunity to practice managing that trigger, seeing what's underneath it, and breaking the loops so you can practice reconditioning your nervous system. That's part of the earning secure process for AP anyhow, so focus back on yourself as it being an opportunity to work on that piece.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 8, 2020 9:04:27 GMT
Also I know I’m still triggered some - but this just crossed my mind: It isn’t like “oh I got her back now I don’t want her” is it? I guess how I’m thinking of that when I say that is more how players are and I know we’ve talked about a bunch how the behavior feels similar sometimes but is very different. And I don’t think he’s a player at all. Anyway, thanks for listening / reading everyone. I need to figure out what I want to do. Does he have noticeable lowish self esteem and negative self talk? A player wont be doing that, a player will look more like a D-A tbh with a seemingly higher self esteem, hence their allure (in fact if you listen to some of these dating coaches, they literally are taking a leaf out of the D-A handbook to increase anxiety and attraction) |
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Post by serenity on Jan 8, 2020 10:29:45 GMT
I guess from here, say he is shut down, say he comes out of it soon, and say we see each other - which feels sadly unlikely now - I really feel like I just want to have an honest, 100% sober heart to heart and share how attachment theory changed my life etc. I don’t really know how he could work through this without any awareness. Or maybe it’s just his depression / low self-esteem... or both. But it feels textbook FA from what I’ve read. And I also want to express my support but need for him to try to show up and give us a chance. I don’t know... maybe I’m just jumping to conclusions. I still don’t really get it. Thanks for the support and feedback - beyond helpful. I think I’m going to bed now. I thought Alexandra's wait and see approach was a good idea. It seems normal (for an avoidant) who has deactivated for months to be a bit nervous coming back into the relationship. He's feeling his way back into it IMO, probably instinctively trying to find a comfort zone that works for him. He might not be able to tell you what that is yet. I believe from a lot of experience, that protest behaviors like trying to convince him to change and chasing him for reassurance and connection will escalate his avoidance. You could wait and observe his behavior over a period , and make a decision if what he does works for you or not.? If you already know in your heart of hearts that coldness for a week or more after intimacy feels too awful to endure, and you don't feel he can be predictable enough, your best bet is to propose a middle ground upfront. (Regular Date nights, a regular low-intimacy activity you both enjoy together, maybe texting more frequently...whatever seems reasonable to you). If you do this, you would have to be prepared to walk away (or agree to being just friends for now) if he says `no' or dishonors the agreement. But being upfront and honest- just like you would with any new dating partner- could spare you a lot of pain and wasted time. Just my thoughts. <3 |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 8, 2020 17:59:51 GMT
caro, FAs have a lot of difficulty communicating and do much better with direct questions. How's your week looking, in an attempt to say I want to hang out but am trying to be low-key about it so you can participate in scheduling, won't necessarily get an answer. Yes, this is straight forward to other types of people, but you're better off removing ambiguity with FAs even if you won't necessarily like their answer. I would reply and say, I'm free x day and y day, how about we grab tea one of those days? Or, whatever kind of hangout is low-key for you.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 8, 2020 18:07:18 GMT
Additionally, if he doesn't know yet, like if he has tentative plans that aren't confirmed yet, (based on my experience) he's likely not to answer until the last minute even though he didn't explain to you why. That's why extreme clarity is just easier. caro While I think you're getting anxiety because you are over-anticipating he can't show up for you without the evidence yet of if this time is different, I'd also suggest taking note that this has barely begun and it's already making you anxious and not meeting your needs. He's passive about plans. That's been a theme in your posts, and you talk about how you've been more direct with him than others and how he's responded to that directness. So, your new relationship may still require you to be comfortable with stepping up on initiative and pulling the workload more in that space. That means he still needs to be consistent in responding and showing up, though. I have an FA friend who is now divorced from her DA husband. He was devoted to her, but his insecurities lead to him never taking initiative on anything. He was like that from the very beginning. After many years, she couldn't tolerate it anymore, but that largely had to do with how it ended up being true not just for planning but also for problem-solving, conflict-resolution, and self-work. That all being said, your guy responded to you within a few hours, so he's not ignoring you. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 8, 2020 19:37:06 GMT
caro , FAs have a lot of difficulty communicating and do much better with direct questions. How's your week looking, in an attempt to say I want to hang out but am trying to be low-key about it so you can participate in scheduling, won't necessarily get an answer. Yes, this is straight forward to other types of people, but you're better off removing ambiguity with FAs even if you won't necessarily like their answer. I would reply and say, I'm free x day and y day, how about we grab tea one of those days? Or, whatever kind of hangout is low-key for you. You’re right... I forgot about this and should know this by now... he was only good with what day are you free like three times in the beginning... the non-directness is also me trying to not be controlling and my insecurity too I think... Thank you for that reminder. Just from my perspective, you would only be "controlling" if you let the A-P side triggers then act out in passive aggressive style/protest behaviours. Asking him directly for a catch up is not controlling at all. Think about it, if you can't even feel you can ask for a catch up with a person you love, without fear......This is the thing with F-A's, I was walking on eggshells as well, it's what they end up provoking in all of us, (bar a D-A I would suspect) with the intermittent reinforcement. This along with hypervigilance around statements were the main things that definitely even caught me out, never ever felt like that before or since in my life. Their dysregulation and oscillation, actually ends up rubbing off on you, if you allow it. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 8, 2020 19:42:09 GMT
caro , FAs have a lot of difficulty communicating and do much better with direct questions. How's your week looking, in an attempt to say I want to hang out but am trying to be low-key about it so you can participate in scheduling, won't necessarily get an answer. Yes, this is straight forward to other types of people, but you're better off removing ambiguity with FAs even if you won't necessarily like their answer. I would reply and say, I'm free x day and y day, how about we grab tea one of those days? Or, whatever kind of hangout is low-key for you. You’re right... I forgot about this and should know this by now... he was only good with what day are you free like three times in the beginning... the non-directness is also me trying to not be controlling and my insecurity too I think... Thank you for that reminder. and this too rings true from my experience, in their "anxious preoccupied" side, which is when they meet someone new only, mine was clingy, needy, fullon whirlwind in my face 9/10 attraction all over me, flipped to D-A the literal opposite when things became serious and she knew she had to see me more, not her regular once or twice a month scenario. |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 8, 2020 21:13:25 GMT
I fully know that I’m protesting - which isn’t good - but it’s like I can’t make myself not. Maybe this is the auto regulation stuff? It is. You're running your previous track of, I've gotten my needs met at some point in my life through this protest behavior. Now that you know that's been AP and dysfunctional, though, it's time to expand your toolbox and learn new and healthier coping and communication skills. And also that if you try to self-regulate and don't expect it to get done externally, you won't die... which starts the reconditioning and makes it a little easier each time  |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 8, 2020 21:35:13 GMT
Just from my perspective, you would only be "controlling" if you let the A-P side triggers then act out in passive aggressive style/protest behaviours. Asking him directly for a catch up is not controlling at all. Think about it, if you can't even feel you can ask for a catch up with a person you love, without fear......This is the thing with F-A's, I was walking on eggshells as well, it's what they end up provoking in all of us, (bar a D-A I would suspect) with the intermittent reinforcement. This along with hypervigilance around statements were the main things that definitely even caught me out, never ever felt like that before or since in my life. Their dysregulation and oscillation, actually ends up rubbing off on you, if you allow it. I think I’m just scared - I guess scared of rejection and being abandoned. I went to my therapist this morning and I haven’t seen her in months for insurance reasons, and she was very impressed with my growth and directness so far (I credited all of you for the reason!). I felt so good after. Like ruling the world. Then like an hour later, I felt sad. It’s hard not to feel stupid for this stuff. I know it’s totally his avoidance / intimacy issues combined with my anxiety and triggers. I can see how this is a typical pattern that doesn’t work. But I want to heal, want him to continue to want to heal (know I have no control of this etc), and I want it to work. And I know that if there’s any chance I have to be direct, and as much as I’ve grown, it’s still hard for me. She asked me why it’s worth it, why I still want to do this - and that was good to explore. Anyway, I’m trying to pump myself back up to how I felt a couple hours ago haha - well and to reply and be direct. I fully know that I’m protesting - which isn’t good - but it’s like I can’t make myself not. Maybe this is the auto regulation stuff? It's all good Caroline, you're actually realising what is happening, which is fantastic isn't it. You have awareness, which many don't. You're not stupid at all in any capacity. |
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