|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 20, 2020 1:46:45 GMT
Yes. My experience is that people love that I have a passion.... but they become annoyed very quickly that it’s not about them. How to navigate the triggers either way. That’s seemingly the question.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 20, 2020 2:35:09 GMT
Isn't this just a healthy outlook then? Is it really FA? NOT being codependent? Or is there more to it? Lets be real, in the real world, there is always going to be an element of codependency, even if fleeting. Where you may "enable" another's "poor behaviour". It's just long term behavioural patterns, for a long lasting open, truly loving relationship, you need interdependence, not full blown dependency on another, nor codependency, it's almost equal in sharing, supporting, sharing of feelings etc etc over the entire relationship, gonna be peaks and troughs obviously. Sorry Janedoe, what is your attachment style btw? If you don't mind me asking? If you look at the Fight/flight/freeze/fawn responses of all humans, codependency lands under fawn, you feel a need to satisfy another's requirements above and beyond perhaps even what they ask for, it literally is an addiction, instead of helping yourself, you help others at your own expense consistently, and with poor boundaries associated. I'm personally not getting what you are asking here though? Are you asking if it's specifically tied to F-A attachment? These are good boundaries, a secure would have these. |
|
|
|
Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 20, 2020 3:13:26 GMT
@dualcitizen There’s a lot more to codependency than enabling a person’s behavior. But it’s really irrelevant to my question. My question is an attempt to figure out the fear of engulfment and enmeshment and what the difference is. And if some behaviors are evidence as having those fears or if they’re just common sense behaviors for secure people. Whether Mrob and others may want to watch and make their own comments as well. Hopefully not triggering what I am about to say. {edit} Enmeshment - Parent abusing you basically for making them do something bad, guilt tripping for not performing, child caretaking parent, leading the child to think: "I'm responsible for how you feel, and you're responsible for how I feel". Thisa would lead to a "dependency" on the parent on how you feel. Translating later in life to a lover/partner. And reliving the childhood trauma? Engulfment - over immersion in a relationship, and being dependent on the other for all your needs, and demanding the other party do so even. When you think about the F-A being scared of being "trapped" in a relationship, this makes total sense. They were "trapped" in a situation with a caregiver they couldn't really get out of, and copped abuse (physical/emotional) for not doing what the caregiver required, which mostly would be unreasonable demands. ("the trauma") Clearly the F-A child was engulfed by the parent and enmeshed. And explains why potentially there is a constant fear of losing sovereignty? And why F-As become overwhelmed by a close attachment. As the close relationship with the parent/caregiver results in punishment and loss of sovereignty? There are no clear boundaries, and the child always feels responsible for the parents upset, and the child feels the parent is responsible for them feeling good. Which related to a relationship later in life with a partner and dependency on the partner for happiness and codependent type of love, the fantasy bond in effect. Not closer to a true interdependent love scenario. Where both are responsible for their own reactions to a stressor and emotions felt. Which bottom line get's back to self love. This was stifled by the caregiver by the abuse, ingrained, creating the negative inner voice as well. |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 20, 2020 3:48:01 GMT
I have trouble with interdependency and the line between that and codependence. I want a relationship where we are our own people, then come together, then do our own thing while knowing we each have each other’s back. That’s not how most people see a relationship. I can’t handle what most people see as “normal”. I’ve tried and I feel terribly suffocated, while the other person feels short changed.
I’ve got to be careful that my head doesn’t do a number on me and convince me that isolating is secure attachment. It’s not.
I edited that last sentence to say isolating.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 20, 2020 4:10:41 GMT
I have trouble with interdependency and the line between that and codependence. I want a relationship where we are our own people, then come together, then do our own thing while knowing we each have each other’s back. That’s not how most people see a relationship. I can’t handle what most people see as “normal”. I’ve tried and I feel terribly suffocated, while the other person feels short changed. I’ve got to be careful that my head doesn’t do a number on me and convince me that isolating is secure attachment. It’s not. I edited that last sentence to say isolating. Seriously don't blame you for not wanting "interdependence", it literally is foreign to you. And I can understand why you would be hesitant to accept anyone's offers of "love" and "closeness", when all you've known is hostility from a caregiver, and a dependence on you for the caregivers happiness, therefore your feeling of losing "self sovereignty" you mentioned in another thread? Can totally understand, your boundaries were destroyed early on, no respect for your personal boundaries and semblance of freedom. |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 20, 2020 4:18:09 GMT
Interdependence is the goal, surely. I had absolutely no idea about healthy boundaries. What is me, what is them, and what to do when there’s conflict? How do I bend without compromising everything? In my second marriage, to a secure, I felt like I’d compromised everything until there was nothing left. I knew I was being unreasonable, but something was missing. The two things she wanted were the two things I wasn’t prepared to give.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 20, 2020 4:49:33 GMT
I think the major no no for an FA is the being responsible for another’s emotions. In my one relationship with an AP, he dumped that responsibility on me. I was told other things were not allowed to be more important to me and highly criticized when I didn’t do what he wanted. It started off very subtly. I normally have solid boundaries but he found me in a bad time. And after him I started dating emotionally unavailable people. Because no way I would ever again be responsible for someone else’s emotions. Obviously that led to a whole other mess. I think it’s possible to go to the extreme in this. I do think a solid relationship includes support. But in absolutely no way am I responsible for your emotions. 100% correct, this is where calm centred communication resolves issues in a "normal" relationship. Based upon your self love and healthy boundaries, you ask the person, why they are "demanding" something or about generalised over reactionary behaviour. And here is where codependency really kicks in, if you enable the behaviour due to poor personal boundaries and are further abused, it's a problem. You quickly realise someone is doing things for you, and I instantly ensure I do things for the other person, or tell them I really appreciate their efforts, big or small. Communication is key. My F-A ex. made it clear she did not want my help cleaning up after a party at her house. I texted the next day and came around anyway and helped. And she said "noone normally helps me". I felt obliged because she hosted, and she baked things for me and brought them around on other occasions, and did some nice gestures, that was my way of being "equal" in the relationship etc. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 20, 2020 5:40:12 GMT
@janedoe The problem here seems to me to be about externalizing something that's really an internal issue. No one can engulf or enmesh you if you have a solid, stable sense of self and healthy boundaries that you can communicate and enforce. If someone actually tries (an AP or an anxious FA -- and both are equally as unavailable as an insecurely attached DA or avoidant leaning FA), then it's normal to feel and respond to the engulfment or enmeshment (semantically, in my opinion enmeshment is codependence) and distance yourself from it. The "fear" of either that's detrimental for the attacher is being hypervigilant to cues and taking normal relationship interdependence and worrying that it will eventually threaten your sense of autonomy or lead to codependence-- and maybe even shutting down or sabotaging the relationship over that possibility. If the partner is actually reasonably emotionally healthy, then there's no real threat, but the attacher actually fears their inability to hold down their own boundaries.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 20, 2020 5:58:23 GMT
100% correct, this is where calm centred communication resolves issues in a "normal" relationship. Based upon your self love and healthy boundaries, you ask the person, why they are "demanding" something or about generalised over reactionary behaviour. And here is where codependency really kicks in, if you enable the behaviour due to poor personal boundaries and are further abused, it's a problem. You quickly realise someone is doing things for you, and I instantly ensure I do things for the other person, or tell them I really appreciate their efforts, big or small. Communication is key. My F-A ex. made it clear she did not want my help cleaning up after a party at her house. I texted the next day and came around anyway and helped. And she said "noone normally helps me". I felt obliged because she hosted, and she baked things for me and brought them around on other occasions, and did some nice gestures, that was my way of being "equal" in the relationship etc. How did she react to you helping her? Cause if i told you no and you came over anyway, id be upset that you didn’t respect my wishes. I actually had this happen with the AP I mentioned. He thought he was doing something nice when I specifically asked him not to do exactly what he ended up doing. I needed privacy to handle a sensitive situation. He ignored me. Did what he wanted. And I was furious. No boundaries. Having said that I am bad (or used to be bad) at letting people help me. I learned though. Ben Franklin discusses the psychological impact from letting someone help you. It’s interesting. She reacted well and thanked me, and said "no one ever helps me!". As you know F-As find it hard to ask for help, even though they want it. I didn't know she was F-A at that stage. She says it, and runs herself into the ground, and I knew she did that with other things she was doing. i.e. people pleasing etc |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 20, 2020 6:43:14 GMT
Tying this in with my initial question, obviously avoiding enmeshment is healthy. What is the line between being supportive and being responsible for someone’s emotions? I want to say you instinctively know this in a given situation but if you’re an FA who doesn’t trust yourself, maybe that intuition is off. I can’t answer that at all. And I doubt anyone here, except for 8675309 could. |
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Jan 20, 2020 6:55:11 GMT
I think great communication helps separate unhealthy from healthy dependence a personally. If a partner (or I) had a bad day, asks for a hug and a listening ear, being there seems like healthy emotional co-regulation. If someone gives me the silent treatment or tantrums to try to make me mind-read or self blame, or tries to manipulate me to cross my boundaries, then I put that in the category of coercive codependent behaviour.
Accountability comes into it as well. Couples affect each other's feelings. If I do something to hurt a loved one's feelings, it warrants a discussion not just brushing it off as `their issues'.
|
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Jan 20, 2020 7:59:00 GMT
Accountability comes into it as well. Couples affect each other's feelings. If I do something to hurt a loved one's feelings, it warrants a discussion not just brushing it off as `their issues'. But accountability does not mean someone is responsible for whatever a person deems them to be accountable for. The video @dualcitizen posted does a pretty good job at explaining that you aren't responsible for another person's feelings. That's really a relationship fallacy. Support is one thing. But no I'm not accountable to someone's feelings. That doesn't sit well with me in context of long term romantic relationships. Otherwise mental health professionals would regard emotional abuse towards your partner as healthy behavior, rather than toxic and damaging. Betrayal, bullying, gas lighting, name calling, the silent treatment, threats, triangulation should all be okay by that logic because the victims feelings are the problem, not the abusive behaviour. You may be thinking of clingy people who use emotions to manipulate others though? I've seen that a lot around me over the years. I don't usually go for AP's myself, but I can sympathize with the extent to which some people make other's responsible for their feelings in a bid to excessively control them. To me, feelings in a relationship become a problem when complex triggers run the show, and swing a person avoidant or overly clingy without any awareness or meaningful communication about it. |
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Jan 20, 2020 9:25:48 GMT
serenity No that's not what I'm thinking of. Not sure how this took a turn into emotional abuse. Did you watch the video? All the things you mentioned, minus silent treatment, are active behaviors. I.e. you are specifically treating someone a certain way. There's a vast difference between making your emotions (influenced by your own perspective + your own insecurities and woundings) someone else's responsibility and then having someone treat you poorly while they expect you to suck it up. I haven't seen an AP date an AP yet, at least not on here. If you're an AP not having been on the receiving end of unaware AP behavior, it may be difficult to understand this perspective. Oh I agree, a person's triggers are their own responsibility, whether they trigger someone avoidant or anxious. Still in close relationships, empathetic people tend to swing towards understanding rather than dismissiveness. If the relationship itself is inconsistent enough to cause trauma bonding and intermittent reinforcement, I attribute the anxiety to the dynamic itself, not internal triggers of the anxious partner that should be `worked on'. (since the limbic system is activated, and it can't be changed). In that scenario, i believe relationship consistency is a healthy goal, and that takes two people. I don't test AP. Swing a little FA, but have had a lot of help in therapy with awareness, assertiveness, and specific help with C-PTSD. I attach securely long term to empaths with good communication skills and awareness, and enjoy cohabitation. |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 20, 2020 10:25:09 GMT
Can I say, serenity, I’ve never seen you anywhere near avoidant in the context of this board. Never. I’ve seen you at the opposite end, especially in the early days. Not having a go, just an observation. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Jan 20, 2020 17:21:35 GMT
When I think about a relationship....I think it really is 3 different aspects...me, you, us. Most of us have the “me” aspect front and center.....although how each type expresses the “me” aspect is different. The “you” aspect is usually really skewed by our upbringing....we (and I am talking about all insecure types) tend to misjudge motives, actions, words....because we filter “you” through the “me” aspect....basically it goes...what do I need from you, what do I fear about you, am I going to be abandoned, overwhelmed, enmeshed, engulfed...,,all of us have our spidey sense of our needs being “not met” by our partner. What I see as “lacking” in all insecure types ,is a healthy viewpoint of our partner. I have a secure friend who has been dating a guy, she certainly has had her concerns about him not making plans, being a bit aloof with texting etc. however, she has always framed those as things about him that are just behaviors of his and she has expressed her concerns to him in a very open way...no suspicion...no feeling overwhelmed or needy.
|
|
