alice
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Post by alice on Jul 8, 2020 5:36:02 GMT
What are the differences?
How can you tell the differences in practice? (i.e. not their intentions because we don't know their true motives but rather by their actions)
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Post by annieb on Jul 8, 2020 14:44:56 GMT
What are the differences? How can you tell the differences in practice? (i.e. not their intentions because we don't know their true motives but rather by their actions) Good question! I don’t think we can tell unless we get to know them very deeply, but I would think that someone, who finds any pleasure in playing and using others in any way is “secure”. I find that very unlikely, as well disguised as that person may represent themselves. |
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Post by lonewolf on Jul 15, 2020 23:35:28 GMT
In my opinion:
* players are about the game. A lot of men who are "players" will even be upfront with you if you press them and admit they're only looking for sex or a fling. Of course, some will lie, that is really sleazy. Others will have a pretty good excuse to why they aren't looking to settle down. They could be young, in a different town for college, about to start a career in a new city, just having fun, traveling, etc. I think the player's motivation is to "collect" women.
* someone who is avoidantly attached might come at you from a very different angle. They might profess that they are looking to settle down but can never meet "the right one." They may seem very lonely and like they are sincerely trying to make a connection and meet that special person. In my experience, everything is fine until they're triggered, and then the fallout is much heavier than it needs to be. It's usually not a simple "This isn't working for me, sorry" but ghosting or another unhealthy behavior.
I would say some players are insecure and using it as a front to avoid a relationship, but just as many are secure and just not looking to settle down right now. Avoidants might actually be looking to settle down but the reality is so much harder for them.
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alice
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Post by alice on Jul 16, 2020 0:25:03 GMT
lonewolf Thanks for your thoughts. Can you tell the difference without them telling you their intentions behind their actions though? Youth may be more of an indicator. Moving around? I know avoidance do this some...I'm not sure what else there is. I posted the story of my ex on here. Before this, I never thought he had attachment issues. Most see attachment and FA in it. Power games, engulfment...I can see it, but I'm leaning towards that he was engaging in a fantasy and playing. I think he suddenly felt guilt knowing he couldn't really follow through (he got defensive) when I got a bit more real with him and then he got bored because the fantasy stopped. You could say the fantasy is an attachment thing though. I'm not sure there is really any way of telling. I guess I have more empathy for the insecurely attached person than the person who lies and plays.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 16, 2020 0:53:48 GMT
I agree with lonewolf's comments. I think the issue is insecures have words and actions misaligned because they are lying to themselves. Players either don't lie about it or are super charming and smooth about the lying so they don't seem ambivalent or torn. It's just about the polished chase for them and losing interest quickly without remorse if they don't get what they want. They're not looking for effort (unless they are also insecures or PDs only obsessed with winning the chase part to feed their ego). |
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alice
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Post by alice on Jul 16, 2020 2:06:57 GMT
I think the issue is insecures have words and actions misaligned because they are lying to themselves. But players have words and actions misaligned because they're lying to you! When I say players, I mean ones who lie because I think there are a small handful who don't, but a majority lie because that is part of the game. |
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Post by alexandra on Jul 16, 2020 2:30:36 GMT
alice, do you ever observe a difference between smooth lies telling you anything you want to hear and actually seeming sincerely conflicted with self? I don't know, in my experience, the players have been straight forward (acted like they liked me but straight forward that there was some reason it probably couldn't be serious but encouraging me to try to win them over by dangling a carrot, which may be lies? But which worked on me when I was AP). Versus, telling me their game almost, that they are bad boyfriends, have chaotic relationships, I should be warned. It's not smooth, it's a lot messier because the lies aren't calculated and are more the result of disconnection from self (like the internet term "softboi" type effect). But again, my personal experience.
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alice
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Post by alice on Jul 16, 2020 3:04:19 GMT
alice , do you ever observe a difference between smooth lies telling you anything you want to hear and actually seeming sincerely conflicted with self? I don't know, in my experience, the players have been straight forward (acted like they liked me but straight forward that there was some reason it probably couldn't be serious but encouraging me to try to win them over by dangling a carrot, which may be lies? But which worked on me when I was AP). Versus, telling me their game almost, that they are bad boyfriends, have chaotic relationships, I should be warned. It's not smooth, it's a lot messier because the lies aren't calculated and are more the result of disconnection from self (like the internet term "softboi" type effect). But again, my personal experience. I must sound completely naive here. Yes, I can tell that difference, but it's with men who are more focused on appearance. I guess most players don't know how to "play" me. I'm struggling with this topic with this latest guy...I never thought he was a player because he was a nerd. He plays more in a cerebral sense. I had a full on committed relationship with him and I think he really does want that but gets bored. I sense from recent conversations he may have cheated on the girl after me, but I didn't sense he cheated on me and he claims he didn't. If he has issues, it's much more subtle. He does come from a broken family. He definitely has issues being alone and is never alone really and overlaps relationships (essentially he connects with a friend at the end of a relationship that become the next relationship). When we dated, he had anxiety over me while we were apart (long distance) and he told me one time he was was thinking of moving near me via a surprise, i.e. just being there one day (HORRIBLE IDEA). I never had an issue with the distance, and surprise, I liked it. Makes me wonder if he's AP, but he's never really displayed any signs of oversharing or the clinginess. Even when he had anxiety while we were together, he didn't dump it on me in an overbearing way. I told him recently that a friend of mine called him a player and he didn't deny it. I don't know if that means anything, but years ago he lied to me a lot....just about who he was and what he wanted. It wasn't even in response to questions I asked him. He just volunteered the lies. And when I say lies, I don't mean lying to himself (though recently he claimed he did that years ago). But these were flat out factual lies. He told me things about himself that were more close to who I was and what I was looking for. That is the part that makes me question attachment at all. He may be player AND AP. I think he has changed some, but...not enough. I have never sensed him being engulfed to the best of my knowledge though I feel a push-pull, but I think it may just be boredom on his end. I dated an AP years ago and I have come across several in dating, and they are so obvious to me though because they overshare and try to establish closeness very quickly. That's not at all what happened with this guy, but I was thinking it was the whole overlapping relationship thing that may be why he isn't as needy. I have dated the traumatized FA, and he needed to take responsibility for his actions, but I had empathy for him because of his trauma. He was aware he had issues but didn't do anything about it. He was the softboi type. Am I just completely naive here?? |
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Post by alexandra on Jul 16, 2020 3:31:25 GMT
alice, I think the issue is that you're getting lost in the details instead of getting to the big picture. I believe you want to understand because you think if you do you can better protect yourself. But big picture, all that really matters is he has issues he's not working on, something is off about him, and he's neither truly available nor a good partner to you. There's lots of reasons people lie pathologically. I once saw a really good list for this, so I'll see if I can dig it up. But the takeaway is, if lies are piling up, it doesn't matter what's driving it, it's a huge warning sign. The protection from it is good boundaries and acknowledging to yourself it's happening and it's not okay, not making excuses to explain it away. I know it's really tough for FA and DA, because there's already the tendency to distrust others. But once someone has actually shown you they don't deserve your trust, and it's not just projection searching for distancing excuses, then it's safer to take it to heart.
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alice
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Posts: 128
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Post by alice on Jul 16, 2020 3:55:31 GMT
alice , I think the issue is that you're getting lost in the details instead of getting to the big picture. I believe you want to understand because you think if you do you can better protect yourself. But big picture, all that really matters is he has issues he's not working on, something is off about him, and he's neither truly available nor a good partner to you. There's lots of reasons people lie pathologically. I once saw a really good list for this, so I'll see if I can dig it up. But the takeaway is, if lies are piling up, it doesn't matter what's driving it, it's a huge warning sign. The protection from it is good boundaries and acknowledging to yourself it's happening and it's not okay, not making excuses to explain it away. I know it's really tough for FA and DA, because there's already the tendency to distrust others. But once someone has actually shown you they don't deserve your trust, and it's not just projection searching for distancing excuses, then it's safer to take it to heart. I listened to a podcast about the reasons people lie! It was interesting. Most people feel cornered and don't want to get caught. This is cowardly. Though not good, it isn't malicious and some people lie maliciously. I'd be interested in the list if you can find it! |
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Post by anne12 on Jul 16, 2020 6:46:55 GMT
alice Player / bad boy ? Here are some inputs you can check out . Ask some of your secure male friends an uncle, your dad, a male college ect. Men can often sence if a man is a "good guy" or not - because they themselves are men... Dr. Ramani How to avoid dating a narc m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ska9CXcuI8Psykopaths m.youtube.com/watch?v=v_HrQJbrPicwww.mindbodygreen.com/articles/softboi-personality-types-exhibit-narcissist-traitsAllison Armstrong Unhealthy men www.understandmen.com/qc_workshop/Unhealthy_Men_the_Secrets_of_Early_Detection_PAXProgramsInc_032515.mp3How Can You distinguice between a type A man and a type B man: An A person drains you, takes from your fridge, does not give anything to your life. It can take some time before You Will notise This. A B person fills Up your fridge, expands your life, sees the beauty in You and makes your life feel Better. You will not get challenged by an unhealthy man. There are some signs, but they are not bulletproof. Many people know how to behave in the beginning and therefore do not reveal these things in the first period in which they "do their utmost". It is among other things - if the other only talks about himself, and never asks you any questions. - if they let you pay at least half of the bill. As a woman, it is common for the man to pay more than half, since in general, despite gender equality, we as Woman still are behind men's wages. - if they do not check in with you, what you want (although it may be nice that the other person takes the initiative) - does the other person listen to the little things you mention, that you like? He shows this by buying or arranging these little things for you. - Is he on the cellphone while you're together - or can he prioritize that now IT is YOUR time? - is he kind and generous to others? - does he talk lovingly / kindly about his family and friends? - how does he talks about ex'es / women in general The MPI Guy Matthew Hussy m.youtube.com/watch?v=TxuE6IOCKIAm.youtube.com/watch?v=euPx9iieoiw
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 24, 2020 9:44:11 GMT
alice , I think the issue is that you're getting lost in the details instead of getting to the big picture. I believe you want to understand because you think if you do you can better protect yourself. But big picture, all that really matters is he has issues he's not working on, something is off about him, and he's neither truly available nor a good partner to you. There's lots of reasons people lie pathologically. I once saw a really good list for this, so I'll see if I can dig it up. But the takeaway is, if lies are piling up, it doesn't matter what's driving it, it's a huge warning sign. The protection from it is good boundaries and acknowledging to yourself it's happening and it's not okay, not making excuses to explain it away. I know it's really tough for FA and DA, because there's already the tendency to distrust others. But once someone has actually shown you they don't deserve your trust, and it's not just projection searching for distancing excuses, then it's safer to take it to heart. The numerous lies I mentioned are from years ago. He told me it was hard to communicate with me because he was trying to be different and was concerned I'd think he was lying. He gave some examples of things he thought I may think he was lying about. The interesting thing is, that showed his insecurity because I didn't think anything of the things he mentioned. I was suspicious of other matters. He said it was a bummer to be typecasted as he was trying to be different. I was even suspicious of that. That he said that so I would trust him. lol. With our "catching up", I can't tell what happened. And we aren't really talking right now, but no one said we won't or can't talk, and I'm thinking I will say just that (no contact) next time he reaches out. But I'm not certain as to why. I feel that he did something wrong here, and I can't put my finger on it exactly. We discussed the lying by omission part. I don't think he lied about any facts this time, but I think his intentions were all over, and he may have not even known them. He was inconsistent. I think he has changed SOME. But I see similar patterns. I listened to a podcast about the reasons people lie! It was interesting. Most people feel cornered and don't want to get caught. This is cowardly. Though not good, it isn't malicious and some people lie maliciously. I'd be interested in the list if you can find it! Inconsistency can certainly lead to mistrust.....and if you have any history of inconsistency in your past...it can certainly trigger feelings of being wronged. Instead of exploring his intentions...it might be better to explore whether there is any ties between his behavior/words and what you received from others. |
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