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Post by attach3d on Aug 3, 2020 16:56:07 GMT
It's said that the one who cares the least wins 'cause they have the power. Does that mean the avoidant is generally the winner?
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AM
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Post by AM on Aug 3, 2020 20:53:22 GMT
Yes, at least in a DA's masked inner workings, however in truth a DA does care, very much and fears that care, but everyone within that dynamic loses. Insecure, no matter how it manifests, creates lose-lose outcomes. The outcomes are what matter, either close and comfortable, where deep bonds continue to grow (Secure); or a fundamentally conflicted situation which deteriorates into multi-faceted layered miseries whether over months, years, or decades. Mediocrity at best could never be considered a win or winner, just sayin  |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 3, 2020 22:02:04 GMT
I think the only loser is the one who doesn't care enough about themselves.
Caring for others isn't a bad thing. Healthy relationships aren't a power struggle. But they can feel like they are if you're unsure of yourself, don't trust yourself, don't accept yourself, abandon yourself.
If an avoidant thinks winning is pushing others away to protect themselves, then sure, they win. But it's a pretty subjective word.
I think being able to move on from a situation in which your partner is unavailable (whether that's anxious or avoidant insecure attachment) and being free to find someone who wants a committed relationship with you, if that's what you're looking for, is the actual win. That's how I'd define it anyway, not as caring the least.
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Post by attach3d on Aug 6, 2020 0:05:27 GMT
I think you're both on to something. All too often, someone ends up breaking their own heart, and it's lose-lose in the end.
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AM
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Post by AM on Aug 6, 2020 0:35:36 GMT
I think you're both on to something. All too often, someone ends up breaking their own heart, and it's lose-lose in the end. John Greenleaf Whittier — 'Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, 'It might have been.' If only.... we knew who we are, ourselves, from the beginning, if only, in young life a Savior of knowledge and wisdom had come along and bread-crumbed my mind with truths, about myself, who I have always been! Unfortunately, or fortunately for others, depends on the perspective, imprinted familial 'bad attactors, as Jeb Kinnison calls it, muddied my mind for the 1st half of my life. God and I both have put all my broken heart pieces beautifully back together, so any of the lose-lose are merely bitter and sweet memories, of which I use both, to continue to create win-wins, by having been given sweet, gentle, innate gifts to heal with a heart wide open! The only loss is to not have loved at every cost...Nothing More www.youtube.com/watch?v=78pH07RFqmY |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Aug 6, 2020 1:27:52 GMT
It's said that the one who cares the least wins 'cause they have the power. Does that mean the avoidant is generally the winner? The whole premise of this is "insecurity" when you think about it, why the gameplaying? Someone "wins"? Really? interesting. Never ever thought about a relationship in this way tbh. I do watch the odd Corey Wayne video (who's main drive is self respect, he himself sounded like a bit of a people pleaser when younger and has trained himself out of it largely so he claims, his mother a schizophrenic and father sounded D-A and emotionally avoidant, he still quantifies a hardline No contact take it or leave it attitude, but does "leave the door open" if the other person decides to come around) or other "life coaches" and this theme is prominent really, regarding power. Also there is a very unhealthy imao, male movement to counter 3rd wave feminism, both very toxic movements, instead of understanding attachment theory and family dynamics, "let's just point the finger at others" and name call, project and assume and label. I mean in many ways, you can think of these issues from a more simplistic way, and just dismiss it all as "who they are" etc etc, and jut move on, but if you never ever understand the literal dynamics, patterns don't change. In fact most dating coaches or pickup artists are advocating a form of Dismissive Avoidant attachment to garner anxiety and attraction from the other person, they have realised the pattern in an archaic way (The Game by Neil Strauss, an F-A himself, only later realising what he was doing, his programming and denouncing it all), and literally are using intermittent reinforcement to their advantage. Now of course this will probably work mainly on people displaying a framework of Anxious-Preoccupied attachment moreso, maybe Fearful-Avoidant initially, but long term it will fail. There is no substitute for being yourself, true to yourself and genuinely loving yourself and being honest and open. I feel it's the only way you will truly meet someone who you can be truly interdependent with. |
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Post by attach3d on Aug 6, 2020 2:58:10 GMT
I'm loving your taste in music, AM! |
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Post by attach3d on Aug 6, 2020 3:10:14 GMT
It's said that the one who cares the least wins 'cause they have the power. Does that mean the avoidant is generally the winner? The whole premise of this is "insecurity" when you think about it, why the gameplaying? Someone "wins"? Really? interesting. Never ever thought about a relationship in this way tbh. I do watch the odd Corey Wayne video (who's main drive is self respect, he himself sounded like a bit of a people pleaser when younger and has trained himself out of it largely so he claims, his mother a schizophrenic and father sounded D-A and emotionally avoidant, he still quantifies a hardline No contact take it or leave it attitude, but does "leave the door open" if the other person decides to come around) or other "life coaches" and this theme is prominent really, regarding power. Also there is a very unhealthy imao, male movement to counter 3rd wave feminism, both very toxic movements, instead of understanding attachment theory and family dynamics, "let's just point the finger at others" and name call, project and assume and label. I mean in many ways, you can think of these issues from a more simplistic way, and just dismiss it all as "who they are" etc etc, and jut move on, but if you never ever understand the literal dynamics, patterns don't change. In fact most dating coaches or pickup artists are advocating a form of Dismissive Avoidant attachment to garner anxiety and attraction from the other person, they have realised the pattern in an archaic way (The Game by Neil Strauss, an F-A himself, only later realising what he was doing, his programming and denouncing it all), and literally are using intermittent reinforcement to their advantage. Now of course this will probably work mainly on people displaying a framework of Anxious-Preoccupied attachment moreso, maybe Fearful-Avoidant initially, but long term it will fail. There is no substitute for being yourself, true to yourself and genuinely loving yourself and being honest and open. I feel it's the only way you will truly meet someone who you can be truly interdependent with. You've dropped some powerful insight! Intermittent reinforcement and Fractionation techniques seem to come naturally to the avoidant styles, which may explain why the less avoidant (even Secures) can often get so invested/hooked on them and find it hard to detach. Hence the dating coaches teach what 'nature' has revealed. But as you've said, there's no substitute for genuine love for self leading to genuine love for other, without the 'games'. |
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AM
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by AM on Aug 6, 2020 3:20:22 GMT
I'm loving your taste in music, AM! Awww shucks,thanks attach3d I'm definitely an 80s chick that keeps on rockin' lol I love music soo much, I find myself thinking in lyrics 🤣 |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Aug 6, 2020 3:31:49 GMT
The whole premise of this is "insecurity" when you think about it, why the gameplaying? Someone "wins"? Really? interesting. Never ever thought about a relationship in this way tbh. I do watch the odd Corey Wayne video (who's main drive is self respect, he himself sounded like a bit of a people pleaser when younger and has trained himself out of it largely so he claims, his mother a schizophrenic and father sounded D-A and emotionally avoidant, he still quantifies a hardline No contact take it or leave it attitude, but does "leave the door open" if the other person decides to come around) or other "life coaches" and this theme is prominent really, regarding power. Also there is a very unhealthy imao, male movement to counter 3rd wave feminism, both very toxic movements, instead of understanding attachment theory and family dynamics, "let's just point the finger at others" and name call, project and assume and label. I mean in many ways, you can think of these issues from a more simplistic way, and just dismiss it all as "who they are" etc etc, and jut move on, but if you never ever understand the literal dynamics, patterns don't change. In fact most dating coaches or pickup artists are advocating a form of Dismissive Avoidant attachment to garner anxiety and attraction from the other person, they have realised the pattern in an archaic way (The Game by Neil Strauss, an F-A himself, only later realising what he was doing, his programming and denouncing it all), and literally are using intermittent reinforcement to their advantage. Now of course this will probably work mainly on people displaying a framework of Anxious-Preoccupied attachment moreso, maybe Fearful-Avoidant initially, but long term it will fail. There is no substitute for being yourself, true to yourself and genuinely loving yourself and being honest and open. I feel it's the only way you will truly meet someone who you can be truly interdependent with. You've dropped some powerful insight! Intermittent reinforcement and Fractionation techniques seem to come naturally to the avoidant styles, which may explain why the less avoidant (even Secures) can often get so invested/hooked on them and find it hard to detach. Hence the dating coaches teach what 'nature' has revealed. But as you've said, there's no substitute for genuine love for self leading to genuine love for other, without the 'games'. I wasn't hooked on it, it ended up being emotionally painful and very bizarre and it did draw out some sort of "anxiety", "did not make sense" the behaviour in anyway, not seeing it before ever, I merely was hoping she would snap out of whatever was going on, to be truthful (there were health excuses, and the "fake for public consumption persona" and mirroring she did on me, I feel this isn't talked about in relation to F-A's much, but I think it is a form of mirroring, learnt from the Narcissist parent in their life if you're from that background with the attachment style). It'll be the first and last time I see it, let's put it that way  . In a way I'm glad I experienced it, and learnt from it, and understand what I'm dealing with now on the dating market. It may very well be true I'm repulsed by D-A behaviour, as I've never ever dealt with a D-A in a relationship at all. Mainly secure attached people, "maybe" with some A-P mixed in there on a spectrum. Certainly only one particular A-P and one F-A in the last 5 years and i'm early 40s out of 3 dating relationships, the other a secure that lasted longer. |
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AM
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by AM on Aug 6, 2020 3:37:57 GMT
The whole premise of this is "insecurity" when you think about it, why the gameplaying? Someone "wins"? Really? interesting. Never ever thought about a relationship in this way tbh. I do watch the odd Corey Wayne video (who's main drive is self respect, he himself sounded like a bit of a people pleaser when younger and has trained himself out of it largely so he claims, his mother a schizophrenic and father sounded D-A and emotionally avoidant, he still quantifies a hardline No contact take it or leave it attitude, but does "leave the door open" if the other person decides to come around) or other "life coaches" and this theme is prominent really, regarding power. Also there is a very unhealthy imao, male movement to counter 3rd wave feminism, both very toxic movements, instead of understanding attachment theory and family dynamics, "let's just point the finger at others" and name call, project and assume and label. I mean in many ways, you can think of these issues from a more simplistic way, and just dismiss it all as "who they are" etc etc, and jut move on, but if you never ever understand the literal dynamics, patterns don't change. In fact most dating coaches or pickup artists are advocating a form of Dismissive Avoidant attachment to garner anxiety and attraction from the other person, they have realised the pattern in an archaic way (The Game by Neil Strauss, an F-A himself, only later realising what he was doing, his programming and denouncing it all), and literally are using intermittent reinforcement to their advantage. Now of course this will probably work mainly on people displaying a framework of Anxious-Preoccupied attachment moreso, maybe Fearful-Avoidant initially, but long term it will fail. There is no substitute for being yourself, true to yourself and genuinely loving yourself and being honest and open. I feel it's the only way you will truly meet someone who you can be truly interdependent with. You've dropped some powerful insight! Intermittent reinforcement and Fractionation techniques seem to come naturally to the avoidant styles, which may explain why the less avoidant (even Secures) can often get so invested/hooked on them and find it hard to detach. Hence the dating coaches teach what 'nature' has revealed. But as you've said, there's no substitute for genuine love for self leading to genuine love for other, without the 'games'. Wow, great insights! I enjoyed the read and perspectives! All of the above has so little to do with concious neocortex frontal lobe thought, but rather the deeper and very fundamental structures of the brain and networked neural pathways from infancy and memories written upon an infant's body in the infant/caregiver dance of 'loving' A toddler has already imprinted a life long impression of what love 'feels' like, what he/she can 'see' within the brain, and we see more of what we've already seen before. Brain/body rewiring with various modalities of therapy for Limbic resonance with another human being is as effective as it gets for an end game, while cognitive behavior self help or therapy is less so. |
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AM
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by AM on Aug 6, 2020 4:13:27 GMT
The whole premise of this is "insecurity" when you think about it, why the gameplaying? Someone "wins"? Really? interesting. Never ever thought about a relationship in this way tbh. I do watch the odd Corey Wayne video (who's main drive is self respect, he himself sounded like a bit of a people pleaser when younger and has trained himself out of it largely so he claims, his mother a schizophrenic and father sounded D-A and emotionally avoidant, he still quantifies a hardline No contact take it or leave it attitude, but does "leave the door open" if the other person decides to come around) or other "life coaches" and this theme is prominent really, regarding power. Also there is a very unhealthy imao, male movement to counter 3rd wave feminism, both very toxic movements, instead of understanding attachment theory and family dynamics, "let's just point the finger at others" and name call, project and assume and label. I mean in many ways, you can think of these issues from a more simplistic way, and just dismiss it all as "who they are" etc etc, and jut move on, but if you never ever understand the literal dynamics, patterns don't change. In fact most dating coaches or pickup artists are advocating a form of Dismissive Avoidant attachment to garner anxiety and attraction from the other person, they have realised the pattern in an archaic way (The Game by Neil Strauss, an F-A himself, only later realising what he was doing, his programming and denouncing it all), and literally are using intermittent reinforcement to their advantage. Now of course this will probably work mainly on people displaying a framework of Anxious-Preoccupied attachment moreso, maybe Fearful-Avoidant initially, but long term it will fail. There is no substitute for being yourself, true to yourself and genuinely loving yourself and being honest and open. I feel it's the only way you will truly meet someone who you can be truly interdependent with. You've dropped some powerful insight! Intermittent reinforcement and Fractionation techniques seem to come naturally to the avoidant styles, which may explain why the less avoidant (even Secures) can often get so invested/hooked on them and find it hard to detach. Hence the dating coaches teach what 'nature' has revealed. But as you've said, there's no substitute for genuine love for self leading to genuine love for other, without the 'games'. Once a Secure has chosen attachment to an 'other' they are fiercely loyal and forgiving even to the point of staying in dysfunctional relationships much too long. The average for a Secure/Insecure is four (4) years. Being quite the trooper and a glass half full type of gal, I gave each Insecure attachment fourteen years in creepy loyalty where none was deserved. Secures give an 'other' the benefit of every doubt within a Royal inner circle of loving well, until the lack of reciprocity runs the deep well precipitously low and self preservation kicks in. Loyalty is the foundational and functional belief written within our brains. So it's not really about a Secure becoming hooked or hoodwinked, though that may well be how a story of how two begins in limerence. These are the 'qualities' and 'characteristics' of Secure functioning and help explain the 'why' behind our loyalty to another human being with whom we're invested: Relaxed and flexible, not ‘stuck’ in one point of view. Can be playful, with humor that engages others rather than hurting or distancing. Can solve problems by give-and-take between own and other’s perspectives and a great conflict buster (collaborative). Describes their own experience, rather than defining other people’s experiences or intentions. Conveys ‘ownership’ of behavior (and resultant experiences) rather than a sense that it ‘happens’ to you. Is curious about other people’s perspectives, and expect to have their own views extended by others’ perspectives. Comfortable in a warm, loving and emotionally close relationship. Depends on partner and allows partner to depend on them; is available for partner in times of need. Accepts partner’s need for separateness without feeling rejected or threatened; can be close and also independent (“dependent–independent”). Trusting, emphatic, tolerant of differences, fiercely loyal and forgiving. Communicates emotions and needs honestly and openly; attuned to partner’s needs and responds appropriately; does not avoid conflict. Manages emotions well; not overly upset about relationship issues. Insight, resolution and forgiveness about past relationship issues and hurts. Sensitive, warm and caring parent; attuned to child’s cues and needs; children are more than likely securely attached. I apologize, likely those on this thread are quite familiar and have experience with Secure others, however, it seems important to point out none of these qualities are skin deep, they are patterns of belief and functioning within the very structures of our brains. While I move within a spectrum of Secure, my brain will not allow me to cross over a functional framework into an Insecure mode of functioning. Every part of me would be repulsed, as I live and breath Secure. I find these threads so very fascinating to drive my curiosity of other modes of functioning and to understand my own familial dynamics and inevitable outcomes of them. |
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. In a way I'm glad I experienced it, and learnt from it, and understand what I'm dealing with now on the dating market.