annes
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Post by annes on Oct 21, 2020 22:17:44 GMT
This forum has been an extremely valuable resource. Reading books and watching videos is not the same as exchanging real life experiences with people. This is great.
I've been for a long time with an AP which triggered my avoidance. Then fell hard for a DA which triggered my anxiety. Now I'm single again after many years, and have this awareness of attachment styles that had no idea about when I was in relationships. So I'm super motivated to become secure. I've made the test again, and apparently now I'm half secure half AP, but still, surprise surprise, I systematically feel attraction for avoidants, those who make me feel as we all know - anxious, confused, obsessed.
I feel like I want to do everything I can to turn secure. I would love to learn what you have been doing, from small to big things, to make that happen. I'll share my own ways:
- psychotherapy. It helped me break the long-term relationship with an AP which triggered my avoidance tremendously. Actually I'm not even sure that was avoidance, at some point it was just that I fell out of love, sadly, but didn't "authorize" myself to leave him because I was trapped in guilt and stuff. Therapy helped me seeing all the traps that I built against myself basically. It also helped me dealing with the subsequent relationship with a DA, a very tumultous one which made me quite miserable. I'm now in a place where I am dating and I feel like a new person. The perspective is very different and new. I can choose more wisely. I can cut off more wisely. I can recognize red flags and patterns early on. This is a sort of privileged point. Can't wait to put into practice what I've been learning.
- "self-aware dating". I posted about this recently. Despite being very attracted to a FA I've been dating, I've made the decision to cut him off very early. Please note I WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO THIS A COUPLE YEARS AGO. Therapy and two awful breakups, including a depression, have brought me to this point. When they say that pain is the major source of growth, I am the living example of how that is true. So while dating a FA my now attachment-styles-aware thought process has been:
#1. I like him. A lot. --> Back off. Realizing that I was getting attached very quickly, without even knowing him.
#2. Starting to obsess about his ambivalence and inconsistency. Spent days waiting for his texts or exhausting second-guessing. Felt like my emotional space was completely filled with this guy, a perfect stranger after all, adn didn't even have energy to focus on my interests in life. --> Hey, I don't like this. This isn't love or whatever. This is my anxiety being triggered. Period.
#3. --> Decide to be upfront and to communicate. I tell him what I'm looking for - not just a casual thing. I've clearly asserted my boundaries and needs. He responds well, but as I've also learned --> wait. Will words and actions align?
#4. --> I realize his actions and words do not align, as he keeps being inconsistent. So I think, I'm getting attached to this guy and I don't want to end up in the same avoidant hell I experienced before.
#5. --> Tell him. Cut off.
A couple years ago I would have just desperately waited for him to be consistent, accepted whatever his behavior was, thought that my anxiety was love. I'm super happy of these very first steps towards a secure style.
Now I feel like ACTION based on awareness instead of action based on blind feelings is the only way out of the anxious trap. Basically, all of this awareness is helping me taking a step back and reconsider things before rushing into them. It's like putting a layer of awareness between me and the guy and the whole thing. This is super new to me. I used to just rush into things, following the flow of feelings, even when it was dangerous. As my therapist told me, if danger used to be a challenge and attractive, now you are seeing it for what it is, a danger, and you step back to protect yourself. This is a healthy reaction. You can't believe how new all this is to me.
Now I am very willing to keep pursuing this road, and become more and more secure. What are your experiences/strategies? What else can I do to turn secure? Thank you!
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Post by serenity on Oct 22, 2020 4:52:33 GMT
You did good Anne! Its not nice that he turned out that way, but you took swift steps to cut him off when he proved to be unreliable, and that's the most anyone can do. I'm just sorry you had to do it- after what you've been through, it would been nice to meet someone good for you.
I like what your therapists said, about listening when your anxious feelings say "danger", and reinterpreting it to mean "back away" instead of "I must change me and prove myself to this person" (and knowing that you'll be okay if you do).
For me, becoming secure is knowing that my boundaries are right for me, and honoring them, no matter where I'm at. Sometimes boundaries have to be tight, if you've been hurt and you're meeting new people who wish to be close. Other times they can be a bit looser, when you feel more robust or know people better. I think being secure is forming a pattern of honoring your boundaries even if its gonna hurt, even if you have compassion for that person, even when someone you care about laughs them off or tries to cross them, and even if life isn't going so well and you're lonely or feeling down about yourself.
You honored your boundaries even though you've been through a lot of hurt. You also behaved fairly and communicatively in that relationship. I think all you need to do is keep doing that <3
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 0:29:38 GMT
Gosh, I have alot (below) but it basically boils down to this question "Does dating this person make me feel calm and content today?" If I'm dating someone and daily feelings are NOT calm and contented, then I cut it off, even if I am lonely. The point of it all is to be in a neutral and calm zone, so that any decisions made from that place comes from a deeper sense of self that can only be heard when one is emotionally/mentally quiet. I have applied this question to other aspects as well e.g., work, friendships, activities. Anything that shakes my inner calm needs to be cut. This has been my strategy, and it works!
I think the process of turning secure is a combination of making the hard decision to stop being you (AP) and try out a different identity PLUS learning new skills (like what your therapist said!). I say "hard decision" because it is a conscious and emotional commitment to give up current coping mechanisms, which is quite a scary thing to do. For myself, I just wanted an easier life for myself and being AP was making my life hard. Anything was better than being AP, and once I let go of the APness that "protects" me, the easiest state to be is secure because it's literally the most psychologically and emotionally comfortable state to be in. This of course comes with the need to learn new skills such as communication, emotional landing, self-soothing, improving self-esteem etc to beef up on that comfortable state. but personally, the foundation for turning secure is the desire to be at peace and in a much easier psychological/emotional state. This is also why danger is no longer attractive to me - it is not a comfortable state to be in and it requires me to take action to get something that isn't coming to me naturally (e.g., validation, connection, support).
My top resources: this forum Steve Harvey's videos/dating tips tiny buddha attachment literature (academic) Abraham Hicks
Processes: - lots of crying - did not suppress emotions - journalling, writing stuff down, making mindmaps, glossary of key terms - lots of self care e.g., if I'm crying, i do so comfortably
Decisions I made for myself: - no rumination/fantasizing/daydreaming - do not get upset when things are not what I desire. nod, accept, and walk away! - no chasing the other party - protect myself and make sure that i will be fine even if I'm "abandoned" e.g., financially secure, be decent at my job, have options, take good care of myself - being ok with the fact that i may be alone forever - communicate and be clear what I want, do not feel pressured/judged/ashamed to have those criteria.
Dating criteria: - consistency. one thing I paid particular attention to is hot/cold/withdrawal. If someone goes cold/withdraws after things are going well, it's a huge red flag and I cut it off immediately. - upward trajectory. things should be progressing, expanding and growing. if things are stagnating, too much variation, very slow growth, then it's not for me either. - honesty, authenticity, forthcoming - willing and able to be in committed relationships with ME - provides stability, security and normalness (judge by their actions and words, evidenced by my feelings of being calm and content)
Rules for myself - be calm and content everyday - if something/someone does not make me feel this way, disengage! Any feelings of excitement is probably a bad sign. - no rumination/fantasizing/daydreaming/obsessing - think only in concrete terms of actual real-life situations e.g., is this person calling himself my bf vs I think he is my bf cos we act like partners? are we booking a trip already or are we just talking about it? - no effort needed to make relating happen i.e., no chasing, courting. invest effort only in nurturing a natural relation. this also means no rushing into affiliating/relationships, if it happens, it happens. - no conflict from my end i.e., only talk, no crying no screaming. - be willing and able to be in committed relationships i.e., make sure I am in the right headspace and emotional space every day so as to be a good partner. If i am not in a good space, do not be in a relationship - everyone is an individual - respect that by keeping distance from them (to compensate for AP's natural tendencies to cross boundaries). let them come to you i.e., natural relation. - be ok if you're rejected - act on demonstrated actions, not just on my feelings. this goes back to "do not pursue", but affiliate and nurture only when the relation is naturally established.
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annes
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Post by annes on Oct 28, 2020 14:11:36 GMT
Thank you both for your replies. Honestly, I admire you for your strength. It's something that requires a lot of tenacity and discomfort. I've been trying to do some of the same things you've mentioned, but the most difficult part I guess is the thought: "it is so rare to find someone that I like, I have to keep this person no matter what, maybe it will get better". Most importantly, I struggle with this: I've decided to take actions towards security, however this doesn't mean my emotions are "fixed". It's like, I'm trying to act like a secure but I'm still deeply anxious, particularly when triggered by avoidants. So I'm afraid that even taking a series of secure actions, this won't change my underlying patterns. This makes me very sad.
For example, after cutting off the guy, I've been feeling miserable. I have deep abandonment fears (my mother attempted suicide several times when I was a child...yeah big trauma) and apparently can't get rid of them just by acting on security, while remaining deeply insecure. This sucks. Anyway reading your ways of healing absolutely inspires me and motivates me. Thank you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 23:44:47 GMT
hi annes - yes you're very right on all accounts. here're some of my personal reflections on these points you've brought up that I've experienced myself, and I hope it is of help to you. 1. Thought: "oh they so rare". The truth is they are not! What is really rare is a stable calming loving connection. Liking someone is not that rare, if you put in a bit of effort, you can LIKE many people and/or form difficult relationships with them. What is rare is finding someone you like AND having a good calm stable relationship. The issue here is that the latter (calmness) is mistaken as no passion, no spark, boring, not romantic, and so we often take that as a cue that we don't like the person. the way I managed this was really just placing a very high premium on calmness and stability, and whether I liked someone or not is completely irrelevant. My starting point is neutral - if I don't like the person, it's natural that you will not feel stable/calm. So, I acted based on consistency over time which will give me a sense/state of calmness and stability. I do not act on how much i LIKE someone. This applies also to friendships and colleagues. 2. Feelings: yes, so all these tricks about acting secure, they're just a symptomatic cure. The root of turning secure is to turn your emotional profile over. Our actions are motivated by how we feel. Liking someone? Pursue! We act on emotion too much, and therefore, we need to learn 3 things. 1. how to not act on emotion, 2. how to change our emotion profiles (e.g., how to stop being so anxious), and 3. how to behave no matter how you feel. So it's important to mirror secure behavior to learn skills #1 and #2, the crux is really #2 because that forms your reality. 3. Fears: for me, this was what #2 was all about. it was fear of abandonment, fear of not finding someone I like, fear of being alone, fear of this fear of that -- this is all based on the idea of scarcity. and this fear motivated a lot of other feelings and actions. For example, quick emotional investment into someone, liking them too fast too much, want the relationship to progress as quickly as possible, ignoring red flags etc. these fears are based in childhood and adult trauma, so it's important to face AND accept them. I didn't do anything really special, didn't go for therapy and what not. I just read as many articles as i can (academic and non-academic) and formed some language around my own experiences. Sensemaking for APs is very important - understanding yourself and how other people are and how it all fits together. The key here is understanding yourself, understanding others is a complementary piece of the knowledge for you to understand what triggers you and why. It's a part of the puzzle that helps you understand yourself, not for you to change the situation. That is why on this forum the advice is always to focus on yourself. I hope this helps.
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Post by ocarina on Oct 29, 2020 18:07:44 GMT
Hello - I hope it's ok for me to post on this part of the forum - I'm not AP but sit somewhere between FA and Secure and have been DA in the past. If not please feel free to turf me off - I won't be offended. I've really enjoyed reading the tips above - and I think that it's a real skill to be able to let go of a relationship early on before getting overly emotionally involved - even if this is with someone who you're really attracted to. I was in a terrible relationship with a DA/Narc/something else for eight years and if I'd listened to me gut and had some understanding of what was at play in the early days I would never have stayed and would have saved myself so much pain. Once you're hooked in, the intermittent reinforcement in many of these relationships really plays with your head and makes it so difficult to detach. I look at this person now and he actually slightly repulses me - and yet I gave him so many chances, put his needs and wants before mine so often. Yikes! So for me - as an avoidant, forging strong secure friendships maybe for the first time ever, was key - I can now see how these kind of relationships feel and function and the joy that comes from secure loving trusting connection - as opposed to the constant ups and downs and walking on eggshells, together with the lack of real lasting vulnerability. Some of my older friendships haven't survived ie with very avoidant people and have been replaced with more healthy ones. Boundaries - I listened to Brene Brown talking to Russell Brand and for the first time ever I realised that having healthy boundaries is integral to being a moral and good person - and that lack of boundaries often just ends in resentment and its actually not a selfless act of acceptance (which is how it felt to me at the time). Being kind to myself and others requires being boundaried - full stop. I say no a lot more now - without any guilt. podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/85-vulnerability-and-power-with-bren%C3%A9-brown/id1212064750?i=1000442345382I think it's unrealistic to expect rapid transformation - but to begin by walking the walk ie putting into place behaviours that model security, it a pretty good start - since where behaviours lead, thinking tends to follow - behave as if you value yourself and not only will others respond to this - but at some point along the way this will become who you see yourself to be.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 29, 2020 20:37:58 GMT
annes The replies above are really good, as is your own progress in your process! I believe I wrote in your original thread that you absolutely made the right choice ending things with that FA guy before they went too far. It was a huge deal when I did something similar about a year and a half ago with an FA guy I was casually getting to know. Former AP-me also would have kept trying harder, blaming myself, and stayed, and both being aware (and I was secure already, at that point, but it was the first time since earning secure I had that choice to make) and following through strengthened my trust in myself so much more! Which was reflected in continuing to date "better" and better as I kept moving further into security. So even if it doesn't feel good to you right now, it's okay, that's part of the process. I still had moments of being sad and missing that casual FA even though it was only a 3 month thing... in fact my last ever major anxious-triggered episode was the few hours that night after I ended things with him! But I recognized what it was and that I just needed to let it pass, which it did quickly enough -- again, was fully secure and still had to go through that motion to process it. Uncoupling from FAs is difficult for anyone, and only gets harder over time. So just because you miss him sometimes doesn't mean you're not moving forward in your progress (as long as you keep choosing yourself and don't act on missing him). Here's a couple older threads where I talked about how I earned secure: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1262/attachment-style-self-help-suggestionsjebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1559/anxious-susceptibilities?page=1#post-19922This is my thread discussing thoughts and pitfalls and recoveries while dating post-AP healing as earned secure since early last year: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1723/trying-date-first-earned-secureAnd this thread I think just has incredibly helpful information for anyone! Over coupling: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2372/overcoupling-stress-responseHope some of that helps!
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Post by alexandra on Oct 29, 2020 20:49:28 GMT
1. Thought: "oh they so rare". The truth is they are not! What is really rare is a stable calming loving connection. Liking someone is not that rare, if you put in a bit of effort, you can LIKE many people and/or form difficult relationships with them. This is really important too. shiningstar is right, liking people doesn't need to be rare, and there are good people out there. What I found was when I was AP, I almost never liked people romantically either. But when I did, I really did. Because they were always avoidants triggering me, and I was looking for the wrong things and feelings when dating (as others have kind of covered here already). Scarcity mentality is very common for insecure attachers, and the good news is, as I built up trust in myself (and how I did that is in those links in my last post), and I stopped abandoning myself, then I naturally got more secure and who I was attracted to also started naturally changing. So I was more open to more people, as long as they were nice and stable. I was attracted to values, not triggered anxiety sparks. But as ocarina said, this took a long time. Not to deter you in any way, but I'd say it took about 2.5 years from the time I really started working hard, daily, through my stuff before I started dating in a healthier way. With the therapy you've already done and the awareness you've learned, it sounds like you're already partway there. So don't give up and think it won't happen just because you haven't gotten there yet. You're asking the right questions to take the right steps. And it's worth it when you get there and don't spend half your life triggered anxious anymore (in general, not just romantically)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2020 0:51:28 GMT
Hello - I hope it's ok for me to post on this part of the forum - I'm not AP but sit somewhere between FA and Secure and have been DA in the past. If not please feel free to turf me off - I won't be offended. I've really enjoyed reading the tips above - and I think that it's a real skill to be able to let go of a relationship early on before getting overly emotionally involved - even if this is with someone who you're really attracted to. I was in a terrible relationship with a DA/Narc/something else for eight years and if I'd listened to me gut and had some understanding of what was at play in the early days I would never have stayed and would have saved myself so much pain. Once you're hooked in, the intermittent reinforcement in many of these relationships really plays with your head and makes it so difficult to detach. I look at this person now and he actually slightly repulses me - and yet I gave him so many chances, put his needs and wants before mine so often. Yikes! So for me - as an avoidant, forging strong secure friendships maybe for the first time ever, was key - I can now see how these kind of relationships feel and function and the joy that comes from secure loving trusting connection - as opposed to the constant ups and downs and walking on eggshells, together with the lack of real lasting vulnerability. Some of my older friendships haven't survived ie with very avoidant people and have been replaced with more healthy ones. Boundaries - I listened to Brene Brown talking to Russell Brand and for the first time ever I realised that having healthy boundaries is integral to being a moral and good person - and that lack of boundaries often just ends in resentment and its actually not a selfless act of acceptance (which is how it felt to me at the time). Being kind to myself and others requires being boundaried - full stop. I say no a lot more now - without any guilt. podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/85-vulnerability-and-power-with-bren%C3%A9-brown/id1212064750?i=1000442345382I think it's unrealistic to expect rapid transformation - but to begin by walking the walk ie putting into place behaviours that model security, it a pretty good start - since where behaviours lead, thinking tends to follow - behave as if you value yourself and not only will others respond to this - but at some point along the way this will become who you see yourself to be. I agree with all of these things ocarina that you've said! such a good reminder too. I made it a priority to form strong secure friendships with potential dating partners first and I make that explicit. i.e., I would say something like.. I am interested to form a friendship first and see how we can develop it from there. Those who are not interested in doing so pretty much exit almost immediately - which hurts but it's a really good thing. It can feel like rejection but the truth is these pp aren't interested in you as a person, but more interested in you as being an accessory to their lives, rather than creating a life with you. Here is also where I put in place boundaries - I may have some "unreasonable" expectations by some people's standards but I developed these rules that are very specific to me. I don't expect everyone to toe the line, but if someone doesn't even respect me trying to protect myself or seek to understand why those boundaries came about and what they are for, then it's very telling. That's how I ended up with my current partner, to be honest. I remember telling him I'm looking to develop friendships first before anything else. His response was that he already has many friends and don't need another one, but it was very matter of fact and he never pushed or pulled away from me. on subsequent dates, we discussed our approach to and preferences for romantic relationships, which allowed us to share our perspectives, motivations, rules and criteria, and gain a deeper understanding of each other that is more respectful and less personal. We didn't end up being fast friends before dating seriously (that's another story) but the point here is that I had a boundary, he respected it, we communicated and understood the purpose and motivation of the boundary = safe, stable and calm interactions. and more importantly, I made sure that I behaved as a secure friend myself first and foremost, and then see how the other person reacts. Here is where mirroring secure behaviors is really important while working on your inner emotional profile. Acting in secure ways is immediate while emoting as a secure takes a longer time - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I've always been upfront about that too with those around me, that I might feel differently but I'm committed to creating a better life for myself and so I have a behavioral framework put in place. it does take time and it's a process of trial and error, and it might be stressful/scary enacting these behaviors because they're so foreign, but it's all part and parcel of the journey. Don't be discouraged at all!!
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annes
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Posts: 60
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Post by annes on Nov 2, 2020 1:14:40 GMT
I'm learning so much from all of you. Thank you so much. I've been thinking about your suggestions in the last few days. I think it's very wise of you, and still...I still feel empty and sad when there's no one to love. This is very bad. This is not independence. It's the kind of mindset that makes me throw myself into the arms of the first guy I feel a connection with (rare, and most of the times, an avoidant). OVerall it seems like earning secure is basically learning how to be alone. I have never been so alone so far, I've always been in relationships. My therapist said that it seems like in a partner I search for expression. Not containment, but expression. I felt so happy when I could express myself fully and being understood by my ex DA, that was so valuable to me that I could accept all of his avoidant behavior. I feel so confused now. But I'm committed to improving myself, though sometimes I feel exhausted. Acting before emoting makes sense, but still, how hard a process. The pandemic doesn't help.Guess I'm in a bad mood today, tomorrow it'll get better
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annes
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by annes on Nov 2, 2020 1:34:49 GMT
Alexandra, I'm reading the thread you've suggested and I'm finding it extremely helpful. Thanks. Particularly the idea of "getting attachment theory" in "waves". I'm also feeling like this sometimes.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 2, 2020 4:32:35 GMT
annes, glad to hear it's helpful. "OVerall it seems like earning secure is basically learning how to be alone." I don't quite agree with this. It's learning how to be whole on your own, so that you have healthy boundaries and can communicate your needs. But it doesn't necessarily mean you need to be alone. It's connecting with yourself and learning who you are. That is usually easier to do alone, so you can focus on that connection and not get triggered by others, but I don't think it's about learning how to be alone specifically. Being able to be alone more contently comes naturally with it because you become more accepting of what you can and can't control in life, and feeling okay about yourself as you are and where you are.
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annes
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by annes on Nov 2, 2020 16:15:03 GMT
I guess what I mean is pretty close to what you are saying. Being whole on your own, exactly. I completely agree with you.
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