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Post by alexandra on Nov 18, 2020 11:09:02 GMT
sarah, it's very difficult to understand any insecure mindset if you've never had one, and even hard for anxious-leaning to understand avoidant-leaning and vice-versa, because the motivations and responses and mindsets are SO different and you don't assume other people think wildly different than you do. But, they do. In terms of trying to understand why he cheated, you probably can't. What may be easier to understand is that he lacks the proper mature coping and communication skills to deal with both stress and vulnerability. That has absolutely nothing to do with you. His issues existed way before he met you, you didn't cause them nor can you fix them, and unfortunately the idea the love conquers all and you can just get over trauma for others magically because you love them isn't true (back to my earlier point #2). Avoidant attachers have nervous systems that shut down when overwhelmed with intimacy due to intimacy not being emotionally safe in childhood and yet still needing to attach to emotionally unstable or unavailable adult caregivers for survival, while not having models for healthy emotional behavior / stress and coping to learn from. This will happen with anyone. The lack of full commitment and distancing is the childhood defense mechanism to feel safe and not painfully overwhelmed, and the shut down and disconnection from self is part of that protection mechanism. What worked in childhood doesn't get outgrown without a ton of conscious work, and makes adult relationships really difficult because the defense mechanisms don't serve that grown up kid trying to have adult romantic relationships. He felt disconnected from you likely because he'd inserted too much distance instead of a balance and probably missed physical intimacy (14 months is a long time!), and made a series of bad decisions. If he's FA, there's probably a component of external-validation-seeking as well to offset some personal insecurity. All insecure attachment styles have difficulty with expressing needs, connecting to self, keeping healthy boundaries, and communicating, and it's very common that there's a whole set of unhealthy coping mechanisms in place to deal with stress (such as being a workaholic, or indulging in substance abuse, or self-sabotage... anything to avoid confronting the pain within one's self and being vulnerable with a partner... in fact, AP often cope with stress through love addiction and getting obsessed with their partner to avoid underlying issues in themselves... there's a whole slew of options here that aren't intuitive to a secure). He didn't deal with it before because he wasn't ready, not because he doesn't love you. Many people are never ready because the attachment style evolved to shield the person from pain and continue functioning. His choice to cheat will also be hard to understand because I do believe he doesn't know why he did it. As Anne keeps saying, DA, FA, and AP too, are disconnected from themselves and honestly do not know or understand their own motivations a lot of the time. I've had a lot of experience with DA and FA totally misattributing their motivations because they are avoiding going deeper past simple and surface level possible explanations. AP also can have trouble with this, but for different reasons. So this won't help you quickly or easily get to the bottom of it. There's a pretty interesting thread about over- and under-coupling that explains some of the motivation confusion and nervous system triggering in more detail: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2372/overcoupling-stress-responseNone of this makes being treated without respect or making poor decisions okay, though. And not to totally belabor the point, but my last FA ex never said I love you either, not once, after 2.5 years.
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 18, 2020 16:18:00 GMT
One way to determine if someone is DA or FA is to look at how that person views him or herself. DAs have a strong sense of self....not in a narcissistic way....but they know who they are....which is why they typically don’t cycle. FAs on the only hand have a low sense of self....which leads them to compensate through their relationship with others. When he talks to you about himself...how does he come across?
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 18, 2020 16:45:36 GMT
Also...regarding the cheating.....I know that since you are secure...none of what I am about to say will make sense...but part of what underpins someone who is insecure is an inability to really think from a me, you, us lens. Most insecure s are stuck in a “me” lens.....meaning, everything I do really isn’t about the other person at all...it is about regulating myself....getting my needs met, making sure my boundaries are not crossed.....and it all boils down to avoiding some fear...fear of engulfment, fear of abandonment...and how that plays out is unique to that person’s story and relationship to his/her parents. No 2 DAs will be the same, just as 2 FAs won’t be the same....which is why I am not a big fan of looking over a list of attributes and then determining whether someone is or isn’t FA, DA or AP. What I think is a far better indicator is how that person views himself and others....does that person have a high view of others and a low view of self? That person is likely AP or an anxious leaning FA. Does that person high view of self and a low view of others? That person is likely DA. Does that person how low view of self but also low view of others? That person is likely an avoidant leaning FA. Another way to look at it has to do with needs versus boundaries. Anxious people have strong needs but weak boundaries. Avoidant people have strong boundaries and usually express not having needs (coming across as very independent). FAs can flip flop between their boundaries being the most important thing or their needs.....but they tend to focus on one over the other depending on whether they fear being engulfed or feeling abandoned. So back to how he could cheat.....he could cheat because he was self focused and he probably was lonely and he likely did not consider you in the equation until after you put up a boundary there (good for you by the way). He may have had AP girlfriends in the past that were so eager to keep the relationship that a small affair would not have caused them to breakup with him even though it would have been best for them and him if they had. Also, I am going to second what alexandra said about his motives....right now he is experiencing the anxious side of being FA (I recognize this behavior well....as this is where I tend to fall) where he is afraid that you will abandon him and he doesn't want to lose you so he will do a bunch of things in order to win you back. The issue is if he is doing it for you and not because he wants to change...he will end up backsliding and becoming resentful....because the fear of engulfment will take over and the avoidant traits will re appear. Addressing insecure attachment issues takes years.....decades sometimes.....and really requires a person who wants to change. But it means going into some incredibly painful and icky stuff and a lot of times..the perceived safety and control of the insecure attachment behaviors wins out. I do hope he decides to make those changes for himself....because there is a lot of freedom on the other side.....but man is it a doozy getting there. |
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sarah
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Post by sarah on Nov 18, 2020 17:26:32 GMT
alexandra Thanks so much for writing this. It's helpful to get this insight. I don't think I can get over it, I just can't. But I am still in the shock phase of not understanding any of this. tnr9 I think he acts like he has a neutral view of himself, it seems pessimistic and he doesn't have my confidence though, so maybe he is FA. He just never seems at all anxious so I assumed he's DA. He has a low view of everyone really (maybe except me as he's always seemed to think the sun rose and set with me) As for this: "Most insecure s are stuck in a “me” lens.....meaning, everything I do really isn’t about the other person at all...it is about regulating myself....getting my needs met" Yes, I guess that is what happened. Terrible attitude for a relationship though! The selfishness is staggering to me.
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 18, 2020 18:24:30 GMT
alexandra Thanks so much for writing this. It's helpful to get this insight. I don't think I can get over it, I just can't. But I am still in the shock phase of not understanding any of this. tnr9 I think he acts like he has a neutral view of himself, it seems pessimistic and he doesn't have my confidence though, so maybe he is FA. He just never seems at all anxious so I assumed he's DA. He has a low view of everyone really (maybe except me as he's always seemed to think the sun rose and set with me) As for this: "Most insecure s are stuck in a “me” lens.....meaning, everything I do really isn’t about the other person at all...it is about regulating myself....getting my needs met" Yes, I guess that is what happened. Terrible attitude for a relationship though! The selfishness is staggering to me. Yeh...but consider for a moment that it isn’t selfish...it is “self protecting”....it is an hyper focus on protecting oneself against the unrealistic expectations and the intermittent love provided by the parents. How is someone supposed to develop healthy needs and boundaries in a chaotic, scary, unpredictable environment? An insecure attachment is basically a child’s defense mechanism when dealing with parents who were not able to reflect consistent security, safety and love. The behaviors can seem like choices when they are deeply dug neural pathways repeating over and over again. I am not saying this to justify or excuse his behavior....I am simply providing some insight into the inception of that “me” lens. |
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Post by alexandra on Nov 18, 2020 20:03:49 GMT
I think everything tnr9 said is spot on. It may also be helpful to understand that the use of the word "anxious" in these attachment definitions isn't the same as what we think of generally as anxiety. It's lack of trust in self coupled with a crippling fear of abandonment. Avoidance is a lack of trust in others coupled with a crippling fear of engulfment. FA unfortunately has to contend with varying degrees of both those sets of issues. So FA basically distrusts both self and others. Which is a horrible way to live, and why it's "fearful" avoidant. The world is really scary if you feel like you can't truly trust anyone at all, not yourself, not anyone else, but you do seek connection with others. It comes with a lot of guilt and shame as well. So it is very selfish and self-centered, and the disconnection from self we've been talking about means someone may lose empathy when triggered either anxious or avoidant, because they get so wrapped up in their own maladaptive defense mechanisms. The idea tnr9 just talked about of not being able to see self and partner and us properly. An individual who can heal their trauma and grow more secure will find a lot more stability, contentment, and happiness for it, so I hope he truly does want it. But it's very hard and painful work, as you need to recondition your nervous system and undo several years of growing into these sophisticated defense mechanisms of attachment style that no longer serve you well in adulthood. If you can't get past his infidelity, you have your answer. And there's nothing wrong with that. From where you're standing, I think it would be very difficult to get past what he did when the relationship has a shaky foundation stemming from lack of trust that his previous lack of full commitment has led to. Be kind and compassionate to yourself as you process what happened and perhaps mourn the relationship (whether that's mourning the old dynamic as you start a new one if you stay to work it out, or you break up and mourn the end). Your perspective will likely shift and grow clearer as you give yourself some time as well. |
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Post by alexandra on Nov 18, 2020 22:41:53 GMT
And just want to add, since tnr9 touched on it, a lot of attachment behaviors overall, the perceived self-protection -- it is often related to trying to capture a feeling of control that one does not inherently feel they have within themselves. So really head-scratching behaviors to others may be more understandable if you see them in that context, as unhealthy and ultimately counter-productive (and sometimes outright toxic) as the behaviors may be.
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sarah
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Post by sarah on Nov 18, 2020 23:00:53 GMT
I wanted to thank you for taking the time to help me. It's really generous to do that for a stranger. I might even suggest he joins the forum here to get help. He told me reading the book "attached" has been an eye opener and he sees he is definitely avoidant and all his previous partners have been anxious. He says he wishes he read it years ago because things are starting to make sense. Hopefully the therapy will build on that. I don't think he is doing the therapy just for me. I think he is doing it because he knows it's the right thing to do. I honestly don't think he can even process what he did or why / how he did it. It's not the kind of behavior he will be proud of. Strangely tonight he said he was "anxious". First time he has ever been anxious. I asked why and he said it's because he gave me pain and he is worrying about me. He was crying again, he was even having trouble breathing to be honest. He is trying to work out coming home immediately. It's hard to describe how difficult and complicated that would be, but he doesn't care and says he needs to be here. I asked him if he felt like he could commit to potentially months or years of work with all this and he says "yes". I want to believe him, and I don't think he'd lie but I know how hard it is to stay committed to making big changes like this. It took me effort to stay in therapy for years to get over my childhood stuff. tnr9 that is incredible helpful to hear that perspective - thank you. alexandra thank you - he definitely has a crippling fear of abandonment rather than engulfment. Thank you again. All this is really helping me to see the potential difference in how his thoughts were working at the time. |
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Post by alexandra on Nov 18, 2020 23:08:05 GMT
sarah, oh, we've all been there in some variation. It can be really hard to find this information. It was for me when I was trying to figure out why my romantic relationships were difficult and some of my partners making choices that I found outright mystifying. So, there's a lot of people who try to pay it forward around here 
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Post by doctora on Dec 16, 2020 3:54:20 GMT
sarah Wow, so I just read your post, I can relate super hard to this, and maybe you can take something from my mistakes/history, there are some similarities; What you are describing is very similar to what happened during the first two years of dating my ex, a DA/FA (honestly 50/50 it seems). Maybe near the same phase of relationship as you. Anyway I too felt deeply loved and taken care of, every day. We both refer to it as the happiest we’ve ever been. I started off in a very secure place with him, but that anxious lean was definitely in there, due to my childhood. I behaved securely for the most part. We hadn’t polarized eachother yet:(. He was totally committed and invested, but he did these obnoxious behaviors repeatedly that I now know were little distancing techniques. It was like Avoidant-Lite. Being evasive/secretive, excluding me from activities with our mutual friends, running off for an hour if we got into an argument and he was the one who was clearly wrong and not apologizing directly, flying me back home early so he could go on a ski trip with his boys, but not telling me that he just wanted time with his boys. I wouldn’t have disapproved at all, I just wish he’d told me. Weird stuff like that. Nothing too serious to be honest. But with time it got a little more noticeable. Mentioning that he had flirted with some random girl, but as a joke, then apologizing. Everything was a joke. When we had sex, it was like if it got too intimate or good he would crack a joke. He’d casually mention he might decide to extend in the army and go on a Korea deployment voluntarily after waiting for him 2 yrs and we’d agreed what next steps were...I was slightly anxious about abandonment bc he was deployed to war zones and it was an LDR, I would worry about him tremendously, to the point where I couldn’t sleep, but in general I was supportive and not clingy. I broke up with him first. I was back at home, he was going through a hard time school/career wise (I didn’t know though! He didn’t tell me!), I just felt disconnected and also, unfortunately, safe...i knew he loved me and it was somewhat of a protest behavior because I always wanted to end up with him, but I was fed up with what I now recognize were avoidant behaviors. Not to mention it was long distance and the bad behavior on the backdrop of long distance was not good for the relationship. He went FULL on anxious. The fear of abandonment came out with a vengeance. He didn’t beg or cry but he tried to do what I wanted to fix things, and would call often, and have his best friend call me and tell me he was really sad. Unfortunately I was going through my own insecure demons phase, and I don’t blame that on my ex at all, although I think his avoidant stuff may have catalyzed my inner AP/FA coming out, which must’ve been there all along - hence the whole idea that you fall in love with a person who will bring up your childhood wounds, so that you can fix them if you so desire to. Anyway, since then it’s been a mess and he’s gotten more avoidant with time (and space). If you’re so inclined you can read my other thread about it, but in summary, I made a lot of immature mistakes, acted a lot out of anxiety, but sorted it out at some point, felt really bad, realized the dynamic, I missed him, and wanted it to work. This started the push-pull. He went full-on DA/FA at some point, and has been pretty much ever since. I blamed myself for breaking up with him forever after that, because I thought I had caused his avoidance, like he opened up and then shut down forever. I eventually saw the whole mess as an opportunity for the relationship to improve because it brought necessary and truly inevitable stuff up to the surface, and always thought I saw what it could be if we both worked together. But, he’s proven incapable, even if he wants it. It honestly sounds like you’re in a much better spot to have a better outcome than I did, whatever it is, since you’re secure, and from what it sounds like, more mature than I was at the time. Take your time obviously, 100% process everything on your own time...If your boyfriend is willing and capable of doing the work to become more secure and you love him, and you’re willing to give him the benefit of the doubt to grow, than it could work. Based on my own mistakes I recommend considering the possibility that he’ll go full DA and not be able to actually follow through with the work, even if he wants to, and be able to set boundaries (seems like you already are great at that and I really admire that - I didn’t set them and later regretted it.). That way if he’s not really capable then you’ll know. I’m not sure if sharing my story helps but it sounds like your DA really does love you, and I think mine did, too, but in the end it wasnt/hasn’t been enough .
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sarah
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Post by sarah on Jan 11, 2021 14:42:14 GMT
Sorry it took me a while to read your post @doctura. Thank you for sharing this with me.
I wanted to take the time to make a post, both because what I have to say might be helpful to avoidants or people in love with avoidants and also because I have a question.
So what's happened over a couple of months is that my FA (I think he is FA now as you said as these past weeks have unleashed huge issues with self-esteem as well as a huge fear of me leaving him) is this:
Basically we worked thorough that for our entire relationship he always WANTED me, but felt "not ready to put all his chips on me". One foot out the door so to speak. I guess it never played out MUCH because I am secure, so if he did "micro avoidant" behaviors, it really didn't bother me or cause any anxiety.
So then we found ourselves here, and his infidelity (largely a product of isolation, LDR, alcohol, poor boundaries and some woman throwing herself at him) also boil down to the fact he explains he has real difficulty believing anything will be good or will work out for him, so therefore it can be easier to sabotage it than to hope.
We are just at the beginning of that story, as he works through it in therapy.
He's now read several books on attachment, as well as vulnerability, communication and has also been in counselling.
There's been HUGE changes between us since all this.
He communicates 100000 x better.
He has started to express his needs and fears and feelings.
He's uncovering things from the past (eg: "I don't remember a single time once of my parents was emotionally intimate with me")
He tells me he loves me several times a day.
He speaks much more positively and hopefully about the future.
He took actions to cross his lines of privacy / secrecy (for example he put us as "in a relationship" on FB)
He's included me in family things, and called me "his family".
He's just a different person now. He says he realises he has attachment issues and also just a lot of fears but he doesn't want to just survive now, he wants to live and he loves me and can't picture any possibility of ever being happy without me.
Conflict between us is now WAY different. We used to have conflict and he would just go silent or leave or say something distant that hurt me. Now, he says "I feel myself wanting to be avoidant so I am going to pull myself back and explain to you that I am getting defensive because what you said makes me feel like you might leave me, and I love you, so you leaving me would hurt very much so I want to hide in my shell like a turtle".
This communication has been amazing, and it's enriched our intimacy in indescribable ways. I feel that I am FINALLY with the entire man instead of just a fraction of him.
All that said, my question is this:
I am terrified all the time that he will just go back to the old person and shut up behind his walls. He says that can't happen because now he gets it, he will be able to control it better, but I just wonder what the future will be like.
The infidelity made ME insecure in ways I never was before and now I feel scared a lot of the time too.
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Post by alexandra on Jan 11, 2021 18:37:16 GMT
sarah, that's so great that he's taking responsibility and putting in the work to overcome this! It's perfectly understandable that you have fears. It's only been 2 months. Just take it slow and let him keep showing you if he's consistent in his new behaviors. The time you'd see if he's reverting would be when he's under stress, but he is right in that if he's truly become aware now and has started doing the work in earnest for himself, it's hard to "unsee" it and go backwards. Especially if he likes the changes in himself and sees life as improving and getting less painful for him. Potentially losing you coupled with the amount of shame he undoubtedly felt when he cheated may have been painful enough for him to get started on changes he may have been thinking about making anyway but had been too scared to broach before. That being said, you still need to decide if you can rebuild trust on your side. If you can never trust him again, you shouldn't stay. But if you are seeing real change and it's enough for you to eventually let it go, then you can repair it. Like I said before, you don't have to decide that right now. If you honestly don't already deep down know the answer, just go slow and give yourself enough time. Again, two months is not much, keep checking in with yourself about how you feel and if you are wanting to keep moving forward in the relationship on your side. But there's a chance he may be ready. People can and absolutely do earn secure and change, even if it's not common.
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