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Post by doctora on Dec 16, 2020 21:02:59 GMT
I have a bunch of other posts describing my situation, but I one of the things I come back to always, my greatest fear I have and I’m sure others do as well, is...will my ex Da/FA become all I needed them to be with someone else? I wanted to hear different takes on this. Obviously this has to do with that core wound of feeling not good enough, but let’s assume you know you’re good enough, you just invested so much work, hope, energy and time into this relationship with someone where there was a real genuine love connection, and at the end they just didn’t do their half to make it better....I’d love to hear they always regret it. And I think they often do. But is the fear they’ll just get it together for someone else founded at all?
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 16, 2020 21:35:16 GMT
I have a bunch of other posts describing my situation, but I one of the things I come back to always, my greatest fear I have and I’m sure others do as well, is...will my ex Da/FA become all I needed them to be with someone else? I wanted to hear different takes on this. Obviously this has to do with that core wound of feeling not good enough, but let’s assume you know you’re good enough, you just invested so much work, hope, energy and time into this relationship with someone where there was a real genuine love connection, and at the end they just didn’t do their half to make it better....I’d love to hear they always regret it. And I think they often do. But is the fear they’ll just get it together for someone else founded at all? My ex FA got married about a year ago.....did he get his act together for her? I don’t know..but in all fairness, that line of question is really a distraction.....it keeps you from moving forward to find a batter match for you.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 17, 2020 22:59:52 GMT
Out of curiosity, how would you feel if someone was trying to change you? Would you become "better" for them? Or would you be resentful unless you were ready and wanted those changes for yourself regardless of the other person?
I, for one, don't change for other people. Sure, when I was AP I'd try to pretzel myself to accommodate, which made everyone miserable. But I'm open to new ideas and interested in self-improvement. So I don't actually change FOR anyone, but I always listen for better perspectives and ways of doing things (more efficient, more interesting, etc).
If someone did change "for" someone else, then they sound doomed to revert back if that person is one day no longer in their life. Pretty codependent-sounding mindset, to me.
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Post by doctora on Dec 21, 2020 16:21:16 GMT
I don’t mean to change FOR them, sorry, I mean, can an extremely avoidant ex come to the conclusion that he needs to change and then become secure just in time or during a relationship with another person. And the answer is of course yes. Just hate hearing that and it freaks me out.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 21, 2020 17:32:33 GMT
I don’t mean to change FOR them, sorry, I mean, can an extremely avoidant ex come to the conclusion that he needs to change and then become secure just in time or during a relationship with another person. And the answer is of course yes. Just hate hearing that and it freaks me out. So....just because someone dates a long time or gets married doesn’t mean that he or she has suddenly done the work and become secure. Sometimes...and i would dare say..the majority of the time....it is simply a matter of being with someone who tolerates “the dance” more or..someone who triggers the avoidant into an anxious state. I think the notion of someone becoming secure for a relationship is rare.
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Post by doctora on Dec 21, 2020 18:22:37 GMT
I don’t mean to change FOR them, sorry, I mean, can an extremely avoidant ex come to the conclusion that he needs to change and then become secure just in time or during a relationship with another person. And the answer is of course yes. Just hate hearing that and it freaks me out. So....just because someone dates a long time or gets married doesn’t mean that he or she has suddenly done the work and become secure. Sometimes...and i would dare say..the majority of the time....it is simply a matter of being with someone who tolerates “the dance” more or..someone who triggers the avoidant into an anxious state. I think the notion of someone becoming secure for a relationship is rare. I not only second you, but I would take it a step further and say, especially in cases where it moves somewhat fast, that the full spectrum of behaviors isn’t even coming out yet bc it’s being masked by limerence/honeymoon period whatever you want to call it. I think it likely would come out 1-3 years down the road.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 21, 2020 18:29:59 GMT
One thing that was helpful for me was reading through every FA thread on this forum when I first found it and had these same questions. (And yes, even though you have your ex pegged as DA, he sounds FA to me to stay in the dance so long in addition to his earlier life circumstances and coping mechanisms, but you see the avoidant side rather than the anxious side because him pushing you anxious triggered him avoidant and not usually anxious.) Every single story followed the same trajectory. Even if the timelines were different and the details slightly different, pairing dynamics that people wrote about with an FA partner / ex who wasn't nearly as invested in changing as the OP of the thread were the same in every single post on this entire forum.
That really convinced me, after years of waiting on potential, that believing everything could be perfect if an avoidant (whether DA or FA) partner could just change is a fallacy.
What it comes down to is, it's a misunderstanding of attachment theory. It's very, very difficult to understand the mindset of a different attachment style than yours if you've never experienced it. I viscerally get AP, I get secure, and I get the anxious-leaning side of FA because I've actually experienced those mindsets. I don't really viscerally understand being triggered avoidant because I don't have that nervous system wiring because I haven't been in the environment during formidable years that would trigger it, though I rationally understand it and so can empathize and respond appropriately. But I know I can imagine the pain healing AP because I've been through it, and I can't imagine the pain in avoidance and how tightly someone may cling to kicking the can down the road forever because I personally don't cope that way.
I feel like what you're actually clinging to is what you said about your dad. Your dad eventually decided to change. You're lucky! Most people don't make that decision (I've cited older studies that say about 25% of adults change attachment styles in their lifetimes, and I haven't seen a breakout of if that's anxious earning secure, avoidant earning secure, or secure becoming insecure). Your dad also didn't make that decision until he was in his 60s. If he's still alive, did you ever ask what prompted it? Everyone I've ever spoken to who has earned secure, so anecdotally not scientifically, has been motivated by the pain of not changing being greater than the pain of changing (myself included).
I don't think you want your ex to wait until he's in his 60s. But that might be the case, if ever. Another thing you're not taking into account is earning secure changes everything, including shifting dynamics with other people. It really is a gigantic internal shift. You don't know exactly who you're going to be afterwards. Since I've earned secure and my FA ex didn't, we have drifted apart, especially during the pandemic. We tried to be friends, but his version of just truly platonic friendship is too inconsistent for my liking... other coping mechanisms of his seem immature to me and I don't feel very connected anymore or like we see eye to eye on important values. A few years ago, I was ready to marry him. Earning secure does not necessarily save a relationship, it may just shift it in other ways. That's just one example. Your relationship with your dad strengthened as a result of his change. I've had other relationships strengthen as well. And others fade out as my perspectives have changed. Everything is okay, I'm certainly happier now that I've changed and I've moved on from my ex into much healthier romantic relationships.
My point is, you have to keep yourself open to possibilities instead of clinging to this one specific hope because this hope is out of your control and can't be predicted. It's very personal to your ex's journey, and when he's gotten to wherever he wants to go, his ideal looking relationship or the kind of partner he can be still may not be satisfying or compatible for you. Clinging to this hope is actually a way for you to try to maintain control over yourself and environment in a situation that makes you feel powerless.
He may change, he may not. He may become subjectively better in your opinion, he may not. But after all these years of you trying the same tactics to get this relationship to meet your needs... you keep winding up in the same place.
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Post by doctora on Dec 22, 2020 6:06:56 GMT
alexandra. You’re really wise. I hear you. Change basically doesn’t happen often, and if it does, it’s never because a partner wants the partner to change. Its bc the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of changing. And that’s nothing I have control over whatsoever. I agree. I also don’t viscerally understand what the avoidant experiences, at least don’t think so. My dad was motivated by losing my stepmom, who got super fed up with his avoidance and bad moods, believe it or not. And he’s still avoidant in many ways, but he’s taking meds now, dealing with his anxiety (which makes the avoidance worse), and in general I feel like she trained him to use more empathy. That spilled over to his relationship with me, too. She influenced him to be a better dad, even though by that point I was already an adult. But, she still calls him out on his BS all the time. She loves him a lot. My stepmom has been the main motivator, he didn’t want to lose her. I agree, I wrote out a letter today (you responded to that thread) and I’m not going to send it. I think writing this all out here and getting feedback is helping. Thank you 🙏
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Post by cherrycola on Jan 5, 2022 23:18:26 GMT
When I first learned about attachment it felt like all the info was saying "If you were just secure, the relationship would have lasted". I internalized that I was too sensitive and needy and needed to learn to be less of both of these things to have a relationship. I think the book attached even says a secure person can help both an AP and a DA in dating.
I have since had real life experience with close family members that until someone does their own work, their attachment will not change. My sister(FA) has been married over 20 years to a DA. They polarize AP/DA. She chases, he stonewalls. She has been in her own therapy for years. He refused therapy until recently. Two separations and two emotional affairs later he finally went. He is now a totally different person. They both communicate differently and hold space for each other, he stopped stonewalling and is far more self aware of any negative tendencies he has. He reached out to me to forge a relationship with and even gave me advice when my FA ex ended things abruptly. He has shared his own journey of moving towards secure attachment. Although I am glad that things worked out for my sister, I really wish she had left earlier. She took over responsibility the entire time and said he could change if she just "helped" him. Now she feels validated that she is in her happy marriage, but she ignores the 2 decades of being unhappy and that she missed the window for having kids.
My EX of 17 years was AP. I was a true FA with him. We had 2 emotional affairs and 4 breakups. We were engaged, trying for a baby and owned a house together. I found attachment theory, and tried to get him to go to couples counselling but he refused. He was always extremely defensive that nothing was wrong. A few months after he moved out he hit rock bottom and finally did his own therapy. It lasted only a few sessions before he declared himself healed. He insisted he was fine until he ended up in a year long situationship with a DA that nearly destroyed him. So for him it took losing two relationships and him being alone and miserable in the middle of a pandemic before he was truly able to look at himself. He could benefit from more therapy but the self awareness at least helped us become friends again.
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