|
|
Post by BecomingMe on Feb 8, 2021 10:06:15 GMT
Without getting into too much detail about the backstory, I wanted to write a few observations I had about myself(a healing FA) and my ex, who I thought was a DA but who turns out to be a very dismissive leaning FA.
He reached out saying he'd really like to be friends, was consistent with texting(and not being pushy or creepy) and in the course of a month or so asked if we could give things another chance. I knew how this dance would go and told him I needed to take things slow and I wanted emotional commitment. I also told him knowing my history with sex I was not ok with indulging it in casually. He said he understood and that he liked spending time with me and was not seeing/talking to anyone else.
He spent the night at my place(no sex). I think he really tried his luck but stopped when I said was firm about it.
A few days later he said he cannot do this - as usual the reasons were anything ranging from the fact that his job was very unstable, that he didn't want to hurt me etc etc. I told him I was going to block him since this was gross violation of all boundaries. He agreed and we didn't talk for a month.
I called him yesterday to have an honest conversation about what happened and I think this was the first time he actually spoke the truth. He said he wanted someone "easy" to be with, someone safe(I am not very sure how I made him feel unsafe). He said since he was a man he was ok with sex being casual and he wanted someone who was not in a hurry to label things. I had made it very clear that if we do this again it means we were "dating". He said we both were very intense and overthinkers and life was intense as it is and we didn't need to add to that.
All through the few weeks of friendship with him and even after the night he asked to give things another chance, I matched his moves. I only put in as much effort as he did. Only texted as much as he did, showed as much enthusiasm for catching up as he did(basically back to my old DA hunting grounds). It felt unnatural and unhealthy but I wanted to understand where he stood before I became that eager, trusting person I can become. The old me he knew was someone right out of therapy - who had discovered that playful child side of me who trusts and gives. I do not know if it was me saying let's wait to have sex or if he truly believed that I was intense(He has known me for a year and he knows I can be intense. If that was the reason, why even suggest giving things a chance?), but me not being anxious, not constantly pulling him, not constantly investing more time than him has made me see his true colors.
In the end, the reasons can be anything but as soon as I put hard boundaries around what I wanted and what was expected, I think the combined fear of thinking it was "too much work" and poor communication from his side caused him to bolt again. He said he was extremely sorry for what he did. He also said I was always very clear about what I wanted and that he was dealing with a lot of guilt for behaving the way he did. I don't really care about his reasons because they seem to be a constantly changing goal-post. I am sure he does not know himself what caused him to leave. It might even change in his own head from this month to the next(I used to be that way when I did not understand attachment).
His observation that I was an overthinker/intense has left me feeling a little unsettled and irritable. It makes me feel angry that he somehow thinks I am as clueless as he is, but there is some truth to it. I do not casually date, I am guarded and will not let someone in until they show me they are consistent(this is only thanks to the lessons learnt here). The part of me that is anxious leaning feels like I am strict, that maybe I should have been more easy with him(aka been more womanly and giving). But I felt safe and protected with my avoidant-leaning side leading this time and it proved to be true. He did not want to take time and invest. He just wanted something easy and chill. I think I might have also inadvertently triggered his anxious side(not very sure).
This is not to say play games with your exes but to wait and watch until a person shows your their intentions. Even if that person is an ex whom you desperately want to get back to. I do not know if this helps anyone coming to these forums thinking that the 2nd, 3rd, 100th time would be different. It won't. Not unless the other person actually has a clean, hard look at themselves and works on it.
|
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on Feb 10, 2021 12:47:07 GMT
His observation that I was an overthinker/intense has left me feeling a little unsettled and irritable. It makes me feel angry that he somehow thinks I am as clueless as he is, but there is some truth to it. I do not casually date, I am guarded and will not let someone in until they show me they are consistent(this is only thanks to the lessons learnt here). NO!!! Do NOT let him gaslight your beliefs, when he is really just projecting his own challenges onto you. You know what you want, and what it looks like. Be STRONG in that belief, and maintain that boundary. What he said are all just excuses to try to get YOU to change, towards HIS unhealthy beliefs. Hell no. I am a 100% secure man, and I also "qualify" my relationships carefully and am not into casual sex, never was... and nothing wrong with that. Be YOU. His loss. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Feb 10, 2021 14:37:05 GMT
He said he wanted someone "easy" to be with, someone safe(I am not very sure how I made him feel unsafe). He said since he was a man he was ok with sex being casual and he wanted someone who was not in a hurry to label things. I had made it very clear that if we do this again it means we were "dating". He said we both were very intense and overthinkers and life was intense as it is and we didn't need to add to that.
This seems to be a pretty standard statement as B said the same thing to me after he broke up with me. What is interesting though is that he never dated anyone “easy” or if he did..it did not last any longer then any of his intense girlfriends. I agree also with the shifting goalpost.....I call it the Goldilocks syndrome.....this porridge is too hot...this porridge is too cold....always seeking a “just right” feeling but never realizing that it is their own system that they are trying to regulate through their partner. Too far...come closer....too close...run away.
|
|
|
|
Post by BecomingMe on Feb 15, 2021 2:32:02 GMT
Thank you, simon and tnr9 and sorry for the late reply. Last week has been a little tough with work and also dealing with what my ex told me. simon, you are absolutely right. There seems to be a fair amount of gaslighting going on when I look at his words. I had been very clear about what I wanted in terms of a relationship and sex. tnr9, lol about the Goldilocks syndrome. It explains how an FA feels 100%. Something doesn't right most of the time and an unaware FA has no way of understanding what it is. I've done this too - either blamed others or blamed the circumstances, instead of looking at my own dynamics in a relationship. The partner of the FA then tried to address these surface level issues which they think can fix the relationship only to have something new come up and for the FA to bolt again. |
|
|
|
Post by BecomingMe on Feb 15, 2021 2:41:39 GMT
I, however, seem to be dealing with some low level shame about my needs around sex. I feel this way usually when I've been curt with people about expressing my needs - I feel terribly vulnerable and guilty for having them and usually want to get done with the asking asap. I've not had a healthy sex life in my previous marriage and this time I told my FA ex that until there was emotional commitment, sex was off the table (I might have used these words or something equally terse) to which he agreed. For me, it is very important to feel emotionally safe with a person before I have sex with them. And with my FA-ex, his flip-flopping and poor communication was a big red flag, which is why I wanted to take things slow. I am not sure if I should have phrased this need more delicately. I know someone secure, who would want an actual stable relationship, would have asked me questions and expressed his own sexual needs and what we could and could not do given this boundary of mine. For him to come back later and say he wants someone "easy" who is ok with casual sex makes me feel like I am this difficult person around sex, while for most people it seems to come easily. I have been discussing this my therapist and hopefully I'll find some clarity soon.
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Feb 15, 2021 3:11:05 GMT
I, however, seem to be dealing with some low level shame about my needs around sex. I feel this way usually when I've been curt with people about expressing my needs - I feel terribly vulnerable and guilty for having them and usually want to get done with the asking asap. I've not had a healthy sex life in my previous marriage and this time I told my FA ex that until there was emotional commitment, sex was off the table (I might have used these words or something equally terse) to which he agreed. For me, it is very important to feel emotionally safe with a person before I have sex with them. And with my FA-ex, his flip-flopping and poor communication was a big red flag, which is why I wanted to take things slow. I am not sure if I should have phrased this need more delicately. I know someone secure, who would want an actual stable relationship, would have asked me questions and expressed his own sexual needs and what we could and could not do given this boundary of mine. For him to come back later and say he wants someone "easy" who is ok with casual sex makes me feel like I am this difficult person around sex, while for most people it seems to come easily. I have been discussing this my therapist and hopefully I'll find some clarity soon. I understand the feeling of guilt....and I agree that discussing that with your therapist is a good direction. Personally I don’t think A. You being curt while expressing your needs had anything to do with B. Him telling you he wants someone easy who is ok with casual sex. B is all about him being able to regulate his need to control how intimate things are....I see that as very common amongst unaware avoidant leaning FAs and not partner specific. If he could regulate his own fear...your statement to him would have allowed him to be curious and ask questions...but he can’t. If it wasn’t this thing, it would be something else. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Feb 15, 2021 3:18:14 GMT
BecomingMe, I think part of this is societal expectations (or even gaslighting / brainwashing, in its own way). Insecure women are made to feel like not enough if they're not the "cool girl" but also if they're not the "rules girl." It's impossible to see yourself or your wants in a healthy light because if you take what is imposed and projected on women and their sexuality by our society... it's contradictory and impossible to meet any expectations anyway. Layer that with whatever you experienced as a child in regards to attitudes about sex (maybe religion or a stern household or oppressing discussion about it, those can be typical contributors to this in American households) AND any shame or guilt around sex that came up from past insecure attachment romantic relationship and oh boy! There's a lot to untangle on top of the basic issues insecure style folks have feeling comfortable with having and expressing needs, boundaries, vulnerabilities, etc. in the first place! There's nothing wrong with you having sexual needs, or other needs, or expressing them directly! The only thing wrong in this situation is he's not a match for what you want and can't give it to you. You don't need to settle for someone who can only handle casual sex if that's not what you're looking for. By NOT settling, you leave yourself room to meet a better match who can meet your needs. You have nothing to feel ashamed of in regards to how you handled this or communicated your needs. I know that doesn't stop those feelings from being there for you, which is good because you know and recognize they're there to dig into and point you in the right direction of the work you need to do. But objectively, you have nothing to feel ashamed of here. I've met so many men who didn't want to have to act like mature adults, and didn't want women to challenge them in any way or it would force them either to act like adults (take responsibility for things / face their own issues) or to feel uncomfortable and less than with their failure to do those things. And this, of course, isn't a gender-specific problem (it's more of an attachment or insecurity problem), but my experience is with men. I used to accept this and believe I needed to do better. After I earned secure, I met plenty of men who still wanted something more casual on their terms when I didn't. I simply said no, said what I wanted, let them take it or leave it... what I found was I'd get one of two responses. Either I'd be treated with respect as they didn't take it personally. They recognized we just both weren't in the same place and it wasn't compatible and no hard feelings. I could stay friends with those men if friendship had been involved in the first place. OR, I'd be belittled, put down, insulted because I wasn't a "cool girl," negged, or lashed out at. Those men had insecure attachment issues they were projecting on me. They may have been triggered and gotten defensive by perceived rejection (which in some cases wasn't even rejection of anything but not yet on sex!), but that's no reason not to treat someone with respect. Told me a lot about their character and made me feel even better about my decision to stick to my guns about my needs -- it would have been a terrible match and a waste of my time to hook up with those bozos unless I too was only looking for something casual in that moment. It made me lose too much respect to even want to continue talking to them anymore (and sometimes they WERE friends I'd known some time, and so that was the end of that). Hopefully that's some helpful food for thought about a shift in perspective. A compatible match won't make you feel bad about your sexual needs or comfort zone (whether those negative feelings are coming from their direct or indirect / passive-aggressive projections, you can trust your gut on this).
|
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Feb 15, 2021 8:11:36 GMT
About sex: We all have a sexual comfort zone: - green (yes) - yellow (maybe) - red (no) Sexuality develops in the yellow zone. Do NOT agree to have sex in the red zone!!! Good sex breeds good sex. Only good sex makes you want more good sex and if you are willing to have sex.. Bad sex does the opposite. Every time you have sex without feeling like it, without having your body with you, you get less desire for sex as a woman. I think this is crusial as women, never to agree to have sex in the red zone, as women are more sensitive because of our gender and the way we are built. Having sex when you dont want to, can be dameging for your natural desire and your selfworth. Also when women are getting penestrated before they are ready, it can be damagening to their vagina. And yes, safety and boundaries are also important, expecially as an fa. How to get rid of your shoulds: jebkinnisonforum.com/post/39823/ |
|
|
|
Post by BecomingMe on Feb 15, 2021 8:14:26 GMT
tnr9, yep, with someone easy/ok with casual sex, the problems would be something else. I think I have to remind myself of how he didn't even bring up the sex part when breaking up the first time. Back then it was about how he might moved cities and how he's afraid of hurting me.
|
|
|
|
Post by BecomingMe on Feb 15, 2021 8:44:33 GMT
alexandra, I live in one of the big cities in India. Most of us grew up never talking about sex at home or in our schools. Its all come down from movies/books and porn(haha). Its also considered taboo to have sex outside of marraige. Most people of my generation(I am 35) came of age when it was ok to explore sexuality in school/university, however still within the confines of a relationship. Over the past 10 years or so, casual sex has become way more accepted and most men and women in most cities treat that as the norm. The definition of a "cool girl" trope defintely exists here. I have been told by some of my girlfriends to remove emotions from sex  While I am all for people exploring whatever suits them in terms of sex, what is really missing is the conversation around it in my country. What is ok, what isn't, how slow, how fast, why etc. Hopefully this changes soon. You will not believe how rampant dating apps and bad-dating culture is in most cities here. And coming to the point of talking about sex - my FA-ex did not bring up anything related to casual sex at all when ending things. When I expressed my need, he went along with it. There seems to a quite a bit of inauthenticity here - both in terms of him expressing his needs and agreeing to mine, almost as if he did not want to rock the boat. I would have had a lot more respect for him if he told me he wasn't ok with labelling and wanted casual sex while we were talking this out. To pretend, to say yes, then do a 180 after 4 days while still not talking about the actual issue is all due his FA-ness. I still am not sure if this is the real reason and at this point I am exhausted. The reasons keep changing one month to the next. As I write this, I can see the forest for the trees. My FA-ex and I had not been intimate with each other for more than a year. He ended things so abruptly the last time and was so inconsistent even in the initial stages of friendship. Then, when he suddenly announced he wanted to give things a chance my body/brain knew what to ask for. For that I am really grateful. And Thank you, for taking the time and replying. As usual lots of amazing wisdom in your post!!
|
|
|
|
Post by BecomingMe on Feb 15, 2021 14:29:18 GMT
About sex: We all have a sexual comfort zone: - green (yes) - yellow (maybe) - red (no) Sexuality develops in the yellow zone. Do NOT agree to have sex in the red zone!!! Good sex breeds good sex. Only good sex makes you want more good sex and if you are willing to have sex.. Bad sex does the opposite. Every time you have sex without feeling like it, without having your body with you, you get less desire for sex as a woman. I think this is crusial as women, never to agree to have sex in the red zone, as women are more sensitive because of our gender and the way we are built. Having sex when you dont want to, can be dameging for your natural desire and your selfworth. Also when women are getting penestrated before they are ready, it can be damagening to their vagina. And yes, safety and boundaries are also important, expecially as an fa. How to get rid of your shoulds: jebkinnisonforum.com/post/39823/Wow @annie12, thank you for the link!! I can see my body and mind somehow knew to ask for more time before getting intimate. It feels good to be validated when you make healthy choices 🤗 The sad part is, we had been sexually intimate before and our lovemaking was really amazing and healthy because he gave me time the last time around when I asked him for it. This was more than a year ago. The long gap after the last break-up, his inconsistent presence made me more guarded and I asked to go slow with sex. I don't know if he wanted to jump start the intimacy and go back to what/where we were when things ended. Anyway, I'll never know these things and that's ok I think it's a lesson learnt - to ask for what I want and not feel small for asking it. |
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Feb 15, 2021 15:27:37 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by dullboat123 on Feb 16, 2021 5:27:41 GMT
I told my FA ex that until there was emotional commitment, sex was off the table (I might have used these words or something equally terse) to which he agreed. Hi BecomingMe, that statement resonates with me because I'm in the common AP-FA push-pull rollercoaster. As I'm here now, I'm in the low part of the rollercoaster. Thing is we have broken up but she is unwilling to completely let me go. Returning our personal belongings signifies the absolute end and she is reluctant to do so but is reluctant to commit as I have a lot of anxious protest behaviours to which she felt too risky to commit. Now the sex part. While we were going through couples therapy, she said sex is not the top priority but emotional healing is. She said that if she have sex with me then, she would feel disgusted with herself. Question is, will an FA ever feel safe to reconcile or even to have sex again with someone they checked out of? If so, why isn't she letting me go??? |
|
|
|
Post by BecomingMe on Feb 16, 2021 9:37:33 GMT
dullboat123, I cannot speak for your ex or any other FA. I can only tell you about my experience as a healing FA, so please weigh my words carefully. This journey of healing is very different for everyone. Sex for me was mixed with quite a bit of trauma and shame from my previous marriage, therefore when the sex is good and safe and clean I tend to invest a lot in my sexual partner. Which is what happened with my ex. I wanted to not do that this time as one cannot derive stability from a relationship purely based on good sex. If you are in couples therapy, I would consider that a good sign as you both are working towards repair. The relationship must mean something to her if she is investing time/energy into therapy. I would advise patience and gentleness with your partner. However, she has clearly defined a boundary and wants you to respect it. Most of the discussions on this thread are about the same topic. We've said sex was not on the table until a certain amount of emotional stability was present. As to the question of will a FA ever feel safe to reconcile - this is broad question, which I cannot answer unfortunately. It depends on how healed the FA is, how he/she views sex, how safe their other partner feels to them. If you are an AA then maybe you can try working on your protest behaviours(easier said than done haha) thereby making your FA feel safe with you. I do not mean to be rude or harsh here but please think about the "why isn't she letting me go" part. Is she really not letting you go? When you say this, you almost give over your agency to another person. This is the way a classic push-pull feels. She can only do what feels safe and healthy for her therefore so must you.
|
|
|
|
Post by dullboat123 on Feb 17, 2021 1:56:55 GMT
dullboat123 , I cannot speak for your ex or any other FA. I can only tell you about my experience as a healing FA, so please weigh my words carefully. This journey of healing is very different for everyone. Sex for me was mixed with quite a bit of trauma and shame from my previous marriage, therefore when the sex is good and safe and clean I tend to invest a lot in my sexual partner. Which is what happened with my ex. I wanted to not do that this time as one cannot derive stability from a relationship purely based on good sex. If you are in couples therapy, I would consider that a good sign as you both are working towards repair. The relationship must mean something to her if she is investing time/energy into therapy. I would advise patience and gentleness with your partner. However, she has clearly defined a boundary and wants you to respect it. Most of the discussions on this thread are about the same topic. We've said sex was not on the table until a certain amount of emotional stability was present. As to the question of will a FA ever feel safe to reconcile - this is broad question, which I cannot answer unfortunately. It depends on how healed the FA is, how he/she views sex, how safe their other partner feels to them. If you are an AA then maybe you can try working on your protest behaviours(easier said than done haha) thereby making your FA feel safe with you. I do not mean to be rude or harsh here but please think about the "why isn't she letting me go" part. Is she really not letting you go? When you say this, you almost give over your agency to another person. This is the way a classic push-pull feels. She can only do what feels safe and healthy for her therefore so must you. Unfortunately we are no longer going for couples therapy as the last time I lashed out (more than a month ago), she called everything off and said she needed space to think whether she loves me, or is only back with me because she is afraid I'm alone (I think she is projecting). We are still in contact and spending time together albeit greatly reduced. I understand that sex can only come when she is feeling secure and safe with me. Which is why I am going through therapy and also taking anti-anxiety medication. This morning I told her I started to feel the effect of the meds that I'm much calmer and asked her if she wants to try on again, she said no. Then I asked if she is letting me go, she said no again. She knows that letting me go means I will disappear from her life forever because I am not accepting friendship. I am one of the only 3 people she trusts. So I'm frustrated and confused. |
|
