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Post by omega14 on Apr 21, 2021 20:37:39 GMT
Hi gang,
Long time lurker, few-time dater of insecures, some time avoidant but mostly securely attached gal.
After a few flings, my first serious (or what felt serious) relationship post divorce was with an FA man. I recognized issues right away and had some boundaries but within 6 months I was completely unravelled. It felt like a steady dose of rejection and abandonment - not emotions that I am used to having in my rotation on such an intense level. Needless to say, I found this site and learned about attachment and recognized that my partner was deeply hurt in his life, unaware of his issues and it wasn't about me. Of course, even with this realization it was a lot of self work to detach. This was about 3 years ago and we still keep in contact. To the naked eye, it would seem this 45yo man (who has never been able to manage to have a relationship end in marriage and children) hasn't changed one bit - but I will be the first to admit that the road to change is VERY slow and he has made some great strides. Initially when we met, there would be physical distancing and issues with touch, phantom ex, deactivation, inability to express warm sentiment or use eye contact for connection. Eventually, he agreed to go to therapy (I asked my therapist for a reco) and has consistently voiced gratitude for connecting him with the therapist and being a good friend. The progression has been noticeable for me in terms of his behaviours but it hasn't made too much impact on the to and fro cycling and as such the last 2 years has been seeing eachother maybe once or twice a year (after each time he deactivates) and check ins every few months. It's almost exclusively him reaching out to me via text and checking if I still care..if I am still there.
I have been pretty good at maintaining boundaries with him but clearly never felt right cutting him off completely - however I do find that I sometimes still get snappy when he rolls back in and say some passive aggressive things and immediately recoil and apologize. This causes him to go dark for months and then appear like nothing ever happened but will nonchalantly mention how 'I hated him before' or 'You were really mad before'. He keeps it general and doesn't give an opportunity to discuss. My outbursts happen usually when he catches me at a time when I am emotionally run down or stressed - but still, I feel so bad afterwards because I know it hurts him. In my other relationships, if something like this happens it is remedied immediately or the friend asks me what's wrong. It's not taken personally.
Now the reason for my post is I am wondering if a) I am enabling his behaviour by letting him come and go and b) is tough love is ever an appropriate tactic? Ie: This weekend he messaged me at 130am with 'I miss your friendship" and 'Im sorry'. I gave it a day and replied that I can't engage with him when he reverts to his old ways of distance/sudden emotional outbursts and when he's willing and ready to make the necessary effort that I'll be here. I told him many times before that random texts are very impersonal and don't make me want to engage. I know I am not his therapist or mom, and I also know I have more awareness and emotional stability to be the mature one in times of conflict but sometimes I think I speak to him as a child and I really don't mean to. This all got me thinking how I may be contributing negatively to our interactions and if I still project unrealistic expectations on him.
Thanks guys and hope everyone is staying healthy.
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Post by ocarina on Apr 22, 2021 21:20:02 GMT
Hi and welcome - I'm not around on here very often, but your post resonated so maybe I can be of some help.
From what I could see, you're very focused on him and his reactions - my suggestion would be putting him in a ( metaphorical) box for the time being and focusing on what you want from your life - and having delved deep into that question - what are you going to do in this moment and how do you want to feel in order to get you there.
If you can truly embrace your life - and put the spotlight on yourself then it may be that his comings and goings don't affect you and for this reason you're happy to stay in touch and be ause your life is so full and rewarding, you genuinely won't be phased by his behaviors.
Given that at the moment you are being reactive - at least some of the time, it suggests you have expectations which he consistently fails to meet and this causes pain and frustration on your part - you're in a holding pattern, a kind of familiar dance.
When you ask if you're enabling his behaviors the answer is yes, because of your part in the dance - but for me the key would be to shift the focus - he is an adult who will walk his own walk regardless of what you do. Speculating on what would bring about change in another person over whom you have no control is a road to suffering - and an impossible riddle.
The reasons to continue down this road or chose another, need to lie within you and what you want for your life - once that's clear, I think you'll gain some clarity.
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Post by blacksnow2 on Apr 24, 2021 21:17:15 GMT
I have a very short answer that you may or may not like: accept people for who they are or walk away.
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Post by omega14 on Apr 30, 2021 17:42:42 GMT
Thank you very much for your response ocarina. I would consider myself in a good place emotionally and spiritually. I am a parent, have a career, close circle of dear friends that I speak to regularly, I date and have had meaningful connections after him, have lots of hobbies and a dog  I can't say I feel confined or imprisoned by the reactionary negative feelings the way I did in the past. You are correct in that this is about him and why I was compelled to write the post. Living in a part of the world that still is extremely locked down, I was concerned about him because he has no family and lives a pretty solitary life. You are also correct in saying that I have unmet expectations and usually try not to pin it on him - I imagine it's just as exhausting for an avoidant to constantly be told they aren't able to ever get it right. I have resigned to accepting our differences a long time ago and understand that human relationships come in all kind of different shapes and sizes; however, fact remains that I have a lot more emotional tools at my disposal than he does and if I can be of service, or provide support to someone in my life I'd love to do that without sounding condescending or preachy or mean. I ended up just calling him, knowing full well he won't pick up, and left a message saying I was a triggered and may have been a bit harsh and just wanted to check in and make sure he was ok and let him know I was good on my end. He sent me a text saying he's good and will call me next week. Late last night he sent a message that he will call today. This kind of accountability/checking in is progress for him. I guess because this is the only relationship of this nature that I have whereby I spend little time face-to-face (I would say touch and quality time are my primary love languages) and this friend doesn't communicate their needs - I am not sure how to tactically handle conflict. I def. don't want to enable because we've come a long way, but I also don't want to be a mom or a teacher. I want to be a good friend to an FA but sometimes I am not sure how. |
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 30, 2021 17:57:57 GMT
Thank you very much for your response ocarina . I would consider myself in a good place emotionally and spiritually. I am a parent, have a career, close circle of dear friends that I speak to regularly, I date and have had meaningful connections after him, have lots of hobbies and a dog I can't say I feel confined or imprisoned by the reactionary negative feelings the way I did in the past. You are correct in that this is about him and why I was compelled to write the post. Living in a part of the world that still is extremely locked down, I was concerned about him because he has no family and lives a pretty solitary life. You are also correct in saying that I have unmet expectations and usually try not to pin it on him - I imagine it's just as exhausting for an avoidant to constantly be told they aren't able to ever get it right. I have resigned to accepting our differences a long time ago and understand that human relationships come in all kind of different shapes and sizes; however, fact remains that I have a lot more emotional tools at my disposal than he does and if I can be of service, or provide support to someone in my life I'd love to do that without sounding condescending or preachy or mean. I ended up just calling him, knowing full well he won't pick up, and left a message saying I was a triggered and may have been a bit harsh and just wanted to check in and make sure he was ok and let him know I was good on my end. He sent me a text saying he's good and will call me next week. Late last night he sent a message that he will call today. This kind of accountability/checking in is progress for him. I guess because this is the only relationship of this nature that I have whereby I spend little time face-to-face (I would say touch and quality time are my primary love languages) and this friend doesn't communicate their needs - I am not sure how to tactically handle conflict. I def. don't want to enable because we've come a long way, but I also don't want to be a mom or a teacher. I want to be a good friend to an FA but sometimes I am not sure how. Remember that he isn’t FA...he has attachment issues from his past that have led him to choose certain responses over others...but that isn’t “who he is”. Using FA to define him and to define how you treat him is going to feel to him like you don’t really know him. How to be a good friend is 1. Keeping good boundaries and honoring his. 2. Ask before you assume about his actions, emotions or motives. 3. Accept that any change he makes comes from his own decision to change and has nothing to do with you (this is important to avoid the “I can fix/teach/save him” thought process). 4. If you are triggered by something he says, does....look inward. Friendships are a daily choice and if you are contually triggered, it might be best to let the friendship go. |
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Post by omega14 on Apr 30, 2021 19:03:55 GMT
blacksnow2 - I like your approach, but unfortunately I find it hard for me personally to be black and white about him. I accept him but I also recognize that he lacks relational skills and tools. Feeling like shutting yourself off from someone is the only solution is a grim place to be. I feel I walked away from the drama of the relationship but I don't want to walk away from the person and this is where I am wondering if you guys have any insights. For example, when he cycles and wants closeness - I keep a firm distance - and he tries to test me by asking questions like 'do you miss me', 'you should come over to talk....but thats a bad idea', 'do you think about me'. I always answer the same way 'I am your friend. I care about you.' If I feel like it gets tiring, I disengage and create more distance. If he pushes more - I snap and feel bad. I think I need some go-to language or easy actions ready to go so I'm not reactionary.
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Post by omega14 on Apr 30, 2021 19:15:06 GMT
Thank you very much for your response ocarina . I would consider myself in a good place emotionally and spiritually. I am a parent, have a career, close circle of dear friends that I speak to regularly, I date and have had meaningful connections after him, have lots of hobbies and a dog I can't say I feel confined or imprisoned by the reactionary negative feelings the way I did in the past. You are correct in that this is about him and why I was compelled to write the post. Living in a part of the world that still is extremely locked down, I was concerned about him because he has no family and lives a pretty solitary life. You are also correct in saying that I have unmet expectations and usually try not to pin it on him - I imagine it's just as exhausting for an avoidant to constantly be told they aren't able to ever get it right. I have resigned to accepting our differences a long time ago and understand that human relationships come in all kind of different shapes and sizes; however, fact remains that I have a lot more emotional tools at my disposal than he does and if I can be of service, or provide support to someone in my life I'd love to do that without sounding condescending or preachy or mean. I ended up just calling him, knowing full well he won't pick up, and left a message saying I was a triggered and may have been a bit harsh and just wanted to check in and make sure he was ok and let him know I was good on my end. He sent me a text saying he's good and will call me next week. Late last night he sent a message that he will call today. This kind of accountability/checking in is progress for him. I guess because this is the only relationship of this nature that I have whereby I spend little time face-to-face (I would say touch and quality time are my primary love languages) and this friend doesn't communicate their needs - I am not sure how to tactically handle conflict. I def. don't want to enable because we've come a long way, but I also don't want to be a mom or a teacher. I want to be a good friend to an FA but sometimes I am not sure how. Remember that he isn’t FA...he has attachment issues from his past that have led him to choose certain responses over others...but that isn’t “who he is”. Using FA to define him and to define how you treat him is going to feel to him like you don’t really know him. How to be a good friend is 1. Keeping good boundaries and honoring his. 2. Ask before you assume about his actions, emotions or motives. 3. Accept that any change he makes comes from his own decision to change and has nothing to do with you (this is important to avoid the “I can fix/teach/save him” thought process). 4. If you are triggered by something he says, does....look inward. Friendships are a daily choice and if you are contually triggered, it might be best to let the friendship go. Ah yes, good point. I have never referred to him as FA or talked to him as a label. I did broach topic of potentially being on the ASD spectrum but more of leaving it to him to explore. For #2, asking results in distance typically. Or a bunch of times I've had him reply that he wants to tell me in person and then never follow through. For #3 that's why I initiated the post, because I felt I had to check myself a bit. I didn't like feeling this way - like I know something he doesn't or that I may sound this way. I actually remember learning a long time ago on here about holding space - I adopted this approach and found it a way for me to understand this notion of 'space'. It's not talked about often, but if you haven't felt the feeling of 'needing more space' it's hard to understand and be empathetic to it. It's a very abstract idea - but holding space somehow resonated and that's how I view this relationship. I just sometimes want to lose my sh%! and it's easy to do with him when I am having a bad day...and this isn't cool. |
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Post by alexandra on Apr 30, 2021 20:13:07 GMT
I've "stayed friends" with a couple FA exes who don't have much interest in growth or healing their issues or change. With one, we're pretty distant now because he only reaches out when he is lonely / wants a substitute girlfriend for attention (either he's single / things aren't great in his current relationship). He's a good enough friend if he's single. If he has a real gf and things are going well, he drops off the face of the earth. I realized how one-sided this actually makes the friendship because he's never going to show up for me consistently even as just a friend (the romantic door has been long mutually closed). I once also worried about how to be a good friend to someone who acts out exclusively in textbook FA patterns (and yes, I've even discussed this with him, and it didn't help), and I found it didn't particularly matter what I did. He always acted the same in spite of any changes in my behaviors. In my case, he has limited capacities and terrible boundaries and I can take them or leave them. So I left them, mostly stopped initiating our contact, and we're now more like acquaintances. I respond politely or in kind if I hear from him and don't spend much time thinking about him if I don't. The other ex, things aren't much closer, though he's a more avoidant than anxious FA so at least when he reaches out to me it's not always just for ego-boosting attention. Though it's still infrequent.
Accepting who someone is and then taking it or leaving it is about good and healthy boundaries, not about leaving being an extreme response to someone who you have a less than healthy dynamic with, even if you triggering each other is no one's fault specifically and comes from other areas of your lives. You can do it with compassion, and it's not necessarily grim or even a permanent decision. If you want to be a good friend and don't want to lessen the level of friendship down to acquaintances, mirror him, accept your needs are different, lead with your own firm boundaries and accept his, and depersonalize situations before you get triggered into anger because that's just eroding trust on both sides every time it happens. But don't expect him to change or adjust for you and the friendship to grow as a result, since being a friend isn't being a therapist. He's going to keep being who he is, and since you didn't cause his issues, you can't fix them and turn this into a healthy friendship. He's got to get into a growth mindset on his own for that to happen, at which point it would be a better time to revisit the friendship in a closer capacity because it'll have the chance to actually be healthier.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 30, 2021 21:34:41 GMT
Remember that he isn’t FA...he has attachment issues from his past that have led him to choose certain responses over others...but that isn’t “who he is”. Using FA to define him and to define how you treat him is going to feel to him like you don’t really know him. How to be a good friend is 1. Keeping good boundaries and honoring his. 2. Ask before you assume about his actions, emotions or motives. 3. Accept that any change he makes comes from his own decision to change and has nothing to do with you (this is important to avoid the “I can fix/teach/save him” thought process). 4. If you are triggered by something he says, does....look inward. Friendships are a daily choice and if you are contually triggered, it might be best to let the friendship go. Ah yes, good point. I have never referred to him as FA or talked to him as a label. I did broach topic of potentially being on the ASD spectrum but more of leaving it to him to explore. For #2, asking results in distance typically. Or a bunch of times I've had him reply that he wants to tell me in person and then never follow through. For #3 that's why I initiated the post, because I felt I had to check myself a bit. I didn't like feeling this way - like I know something he doesn't or that I may sound this way. I actually remember learning a long time ago on here about holding space - I adopted this approach and found it a way for me to understand this notion of 'space'. It's not talked about often, but if you haven't felt the feeling of 'needing more space' it's hard to understand and be empathetic to it. It's a very abstract idea - but holding space somehow resonated and that's how I view this relationship. I just sometimes want to lose my sh%! and it's easy to do with him when I am having a bad day...and this isn't cool. So can I ask...what are you getting out of this friendship if she retreats any time you want understand him better? It seems to me that you are doing all the work. |
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I can't say I feel confined or imprisoned by the reactionary negative feelings the way I did in the past.
