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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 5:36:37 GMT
I am avoidant female in a relationship with I think a somewhat FA male. I hate to say this scenario (in the original post) sounds so familiar. I have ended dating relationships just like that, always with the excuse of stress. What really happened, is that I lost interest and couldn't get it back. Knowing more about myself now, I think that after the initial honeymoon/excitement phase, hormones wore off, the newness wore off, and I lost interest. There is always stress in life and so it's easy to blame things on that. I've even made up stress because it's softer and more understandable than "I am not sure why but I'm just not feeling it anymore." (Meanwhile, finding little faults that seem like deal breakers and not wanting to have conflict around that or be critical outwardly). She sounds just exactly like me although I could be reading it wrong with my own screwy lens. Yes, it does sound like she set you up-- but not to be mean, actually to try not to hurt your feelings (if I can apply my own mindset/emotional state to this situation?)
I may not have attached correctly, or in a healthy way, but I've known about my limitations. (Even though I doubted them in the face of newness, attraction, the mating game. That's biological stuff and it's pretty powerful. Powerful enough to make an avoidant think they found the end of their avoidance.)
I have not wanted to hurt someone's feelings. When the attachment faded, it faded. I wondered, "What was I thinking?" And honestly I could not end it soon enough, I wanted to go back to being just me without all the burden of relationship. With no intention of looking back. In fact, I would feel relieved about being back in my own space, my own internal groove. That week of silence before she asked to call, and end it? That's a typical avoidant move, having come to a decision and struggling how to say it, what to say, dreading it. Just needing to rip off the bandaid.
I would lie about the real reason because I knew I wouldn't be swayed and didn't want to go into it, didn't want to psychoanalyze myself. I was just done. I felt like I just wasn't cut out for sticking with it. Truly, I didn't have a real idea about the purpose of relationships in a deep sense. So, "connection" or no I didn't have the perspective and tools to pursue it. When the switch goes off like that what can anybody do? That's what it felt like, the switch went off and I needed to be fair to both of us and just do the right thing (end it) in the wrong way (avoid it, make excuses to get out of it.)
I see it as dishonest without harmful intent, and I'm not saying it's ok- it's just hard to be healthy and real when you have a dysfunctional attachment style. Also, to the question "Do DA reassess ?" I'd say, not in a meaningful way if they have gotten "done" enough to actually end it. For me, the re-assessing happened for a while before that- I felt the fade and questioned myself. Got confused. Waited it out, to see if it was my period, a bad day, whatever. Relationships are confusing to avoidants. Like, when it comes to relationship, that's an area we don't feel sure of ourselves like we do at work, sports, hobbies or other pursuits. So we have self doubt, much more than we have malice. And since relationships are not the big priority there really isn't much motivation to get to the bottom of that. The default is, go back to being single.
Now, it's also true that under stress I still get turned off completely but in my current relationship that comes and goes. I don't do anything with it and tomorrow is another day. It's never settled in as a trend. I credit the long time knowing each other in a platonic way (with no romantic attraction on my part) prior to dating, for that. I already really liked and respected him before the sexual attraction became a factor. There was something different to start with and it remains a stabilizing factor.
I'm sorry, I may have this wrong. I just recognized myself in it a lot. She may be FA and just freaked out, I guess that could be it too- although it seems like she'd be back around after that wore off. Have you decided what you are going to do?
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Post by doctora on May 3, 2021 17:58:54 GMT
Exactly this. It's counterintuitive, but when you come from a place of acceptance, people will usually try to change their behavior around you. Accepting someone but also wanting to see them improving aren't mutually exclusive. It's just very tricky to do. Think of it like accepting who you are, flaws and all, but still aiming to be a better version of yourself. It sounds contradictory, but it's not. As someone with an anxious leaning FA attachment....I can honestly say that any “changing” I have done for a partner was the result of poor boundaries and wanting the other person to stay...it had absolutely nothing to do with actually improving myself because it was fear driven. My best changes...the only ones that stood the test of time have been the ones I chose to make for myself and it has been outside of being in a relationship. I think what blacksnow2 is saying is that the more an attempt at influencing someone comes from a place of acceptance of that person, and also vulnerability, and perhaps the more gently it is said, the more likely it becomes that the person's reaction to it will be neutral/positive, or at least not as reactionary to a perceived threat, or fear-based. I agree tnr9 think that types of change that really last tend to come not from poor boundaries or toxic dynamics, but from the authentic desire to avoid or stop suffering, pain, the authentic fear of loss or the cost of staying the same. I think, however, that this can happen in or out of a relationship. Depends on the relationship. People change for each other all the time...otherwise what would couples therapy be about? So, with avoidant it can feel super confusing to know how they feel/felt about since they become so deactivated and cold after a break-up...it can either mean that they are just over the relationship and its not a big deal to them, like @introvert was describing, and that they not only have no desire to change but more importantly they're impervious to any influence from you. However, I can attest that sometimes, it's because they have a delayed loss reaction - not NO loss reaction...and this can be in case in relationships where there has been a deep attachment that the avoidant doesn't necessarily have full control over...the ones where the deny the loss or minimize its importance but eventually feelings of doubt resurface. I think it depends on the relationship. It's only a case study of course, but in the case of my on-and-off DA ex, who deactivated many times, and re-assessed nearly just as many, there was a deep attachment, probably because we were friends long before we dated( like @introvert said, this was a stabilizing/deepening factor). However, because I'm a persistent and nosy girlfriend, ha, I also would always squeeze out info about the relationships he had with other women during our off-periods. I can say that as far as those relationships go, it seems like my ex deactivated with much less emotion towards them than he did with me (where he'd always get very angry/disgusted/insulting), and basically never looked back. There was only one girlfriend where it seemed they had an on-and-off thing for a year, but after grilling him about it, I could tell that poor girl was actually very insecure, anxious-preoccupied, likely knew nothing about attachment theory, and was a little younger...he reluctantly admitted afterward that their dynamic was really toxic and they didn't have much in common. I filed that away in my head as an example of how every AP/DA couple has a different foundation/fuel reserve. Some have stronger foundations because the story goes deeper, or there are some major shared goals or interests, and some have a foundation based mostly on the attraction of the two opposite attachment styles. The attraction can feel strong either way, but the deeper one will almost always get reassessed whereas the other one will not. In fact, lots of posters have remarked my ex seemed more FA, less DA...to that I want to say, he's AVOIDANT by default, but perhaps yes, with me he behaved more FA than with others, because the attachment was definitely there and therefore he did have the ability to behave anxiously at times. But IMO, that is just an example of how its important to remember that all this stuff is a scale, and it's not a fixed characteristic, even though for sure we can have a baseline. Either way, I want to remark that I know, from experience, that a relationship foundation may seem solid and there are seemingly all the right ingredients - shared goals, humor, interests, etc. - but unless the avoidant person is willing to do work to change the dynamic as much as the other partner is, it won't work, no matter how "deep" the attachment is, and no matter HOW MANY TIMES THEY REASSESS. They not only have to miss you to the point of re-assessing their decision, but they actually have to see what the cost of staying the same is. You asked if they do, and the answer is often yes, and often no. So to you OP, I want to say this: it's impossible to tell how deep the attachment between you guys actually is for her, because for all we know, even if its strong, she may have a delayed loss reaction. We also don't know if she actually just "wasn't into" the relationship anymore, which is also totally possible. You won't necessarily know soon either way, so many partners or ex-partners of avoidants have this approach: do whatever you want to if you think it has a chance of making it better, as long as its done with good vibes, as long as it's not degrading to yourself or crossing your own boundaries, and then walk away being satisfied with your action in the matter. Like alexandra said, having expectations will definitely be a setback/harmful for you. |
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Post by redhandletter2019 on May 3, 2021 19:17:38 GMT
redhandletter2019 , you can take a free assessment about your attachment style online. I generally recommend either this one (anything ~60%+ is overall secure): dianepooleheller.com/attachment-test/Or this one (option A requires an email sign-up in case you want to track your progress, option B doesn't require anything and you can leave demographic info blank if you want): www.web-research-design.net/cgi-bin/crq/crq.plIt sounds to me like you probably will test fairly secure (though I'm only going off your posts which isn't actually enough information to base that on), and that the issue here is more you've never romantically run into avoidant attachment before. So you're inexperienced with it and wrapping your head around it versus you're trying to cling to unhealthy ideas. It truly is confusing if you've never encountered it before. In this case, someone with an anxious attachment style would for various reasons try to double down on reconnection even if it involved bending themselves into a pretzel and not getting their needs met. There's a pretty typical power struggle dynamic that develops between partners with anxious and avoidant attachment styles, called the anxious-avoidant trap. I agree with the posters above who said this kind of situation can feel like an unsatisfying "what if" and the-one-who-got-away-loose-ends ending. And I've been in this situation lots myself when I had an anxious style and was very attracted to avoidance. Over time (years and years in my case lol), you realize it's flawed thinking. Relationships with a secure dynamic need a foundation of honesty, consistency, vulnerability, and communication / problem-solving to weather hard times in addition to good ones. A person with a dismissive avoidant attachment style is not comfortable with relationship interdependence and is only comfortable with independence, so there is no balance. (Someone with an anxious style is only comfortable with interdependence but not independence, and someone with a fearful avoidant style isn't comfortable with any of it, neither relying on others or on themselves.) That doesn't mean they're a bad person or the day to day isn't fun or the connection isn't there. But insecure attachment styles come with nervous systems that got wired to protect that person from bad childhood situations, which unfortunately no longer serves them as an adult if they are seeking mature and healthy romantic relationships. People do not grow out of it naturally as they grew into it, it's a conscious decision that requires confronting a lot of trauma and is extremely painful (the attachment style developed as a defense mechanism when the person was too young to have the capacity to deal with the pain). It isn't fair, neither that someone went through a lot and came out of it without healthy coping mechanisms nor that unrelated experiences can sink an otherwise promising relationship. But as you're already taking into consideration, it's a personal choice to change that has to come from within and nowhere else, and if someone's either not ready or not willing to deal with their issues, then it just is what it is. It is absolutely sad and worth mourning and taking the time to accept, process, and get over. I think the bright side of this is she is aware and has started therapy and maybe she'll eventually get to a point where she's more at peace with herself, as having any insecure attachment is usually painful in a number of ways (though not always consciously to the person). And that goes back to, you can care about her and wish her well in your head for the time being and maybe be friends one day. I don't think reaching out in general will "set her back," because she'll handle her process however she's going to no matter what you do. But it will set you back for as long as you still have expectations. You can try to understand attachment theory for yourself because, in my opinion, it's extremely powerful and important information that we should talk about more as a society. But prioritizing yourself and what's best for you is also important to do at this juncture. Hi alexandra , this post meant a lot and thank you. It really helps seeing things laid out like this. I tested overall secure, with a few anxious avoidant traits second. I did indeed used to bend like a pretzel when I was younger (amazing description hahah), but have grown out of that thankfully as I've got older As you say, because I'm so new to this and it's at odds with how I traditionally work, it's felt a bit like stumbling around in the dark, especially because nothing objectively went 'wrong'/I was as consistent as possible. But now I can see how/why things ended as they did (even if it still absolutely sucks) and have an appreciation of why she may have acted that way. This can help in the future. blacksnow2 , I think there's absolutely a lot of truth in this: Of course the irony is that this is likely to happen when the person with the avoidance is unable to clearly help the other person understand what they need (horrible catch-22)  To be honest, I think I gave a balance of concern and appreciating the need for space (I tried to work with the previous hints), as I basically had assumed this was some sort depressive episode/fight or flight response (about the recent events). But looking back I definitely made the wrong move during our breakup call offering to help/be there however needed/work with her etc. That probably just compounded all the stresses she was already feeling. Nothing I can do now. At least I'll know for the future if I ever meet someone with the same traits. Thank you also for this advice: I'd also just like to make clear that when I spoke of her "need to change" it was only in terms of being ready and willing to discuss what she needs - I'd never wants anyone to change who they are... but it is important - I feel - for both people involved to let each other know their ways to a point that can be understood (on some level), by the other person. Then the dynamic can, potentially, ebb and flow in a healthy, constructive way. And it's interesting, I don't know if this is the norm for DAs/FAs, but she was very emotionally aware and sensitive (outside expressing her own emotions). We also dealt with the rollercoaster of lockdown honestly together. The practicalities of my own physical health (won't go into detail here because I'm paranoid I've revealed a lot of identifying stuff as it is  ) meant we had to face some potential obstacles/issues beyond a 'normal' couple, but they were never a problem for her on any level. Nothing shook her. She was the most understanding person I've *ever* met in that that regard. An eternal positive that's (I think) permanently shifted my view for the better. As for @introvert helpful point on the possibility of her true reasons for breaking up being a loss of feeling... I can see this, and I'd definitely say she felt/probably right now still feels some of those elements. BUT the only reason I am even considering reaching out is because she was genuinely struggling at that time. Our chats, msgs and her actions in the lead up all pointed to outside pressures rather than our relationship, and even on our last date she was mentioning the future/opened up to me. If she'd given any hint it was personal I'd respect that and never consider contact again. I know that during the time the overwhelm/pull away happened we were approaching anniversaries she found difficult etc. Clearly she dealt with issues that she'd tried to keep under wraps/deal with herself, but it reached a point of system overload. And there's no doubt, as you say @introvert , that when that happened she saw our relationship, its feelings, and place in her future as suffocating and something to run from for security. Of course as doctora has said above, I simply can't know her true thoughts and only go on what she did/said. It may be that most of all she'd lost feelings (the breakup call was honestly one of the most disconcerting things I've experienced, like a formal work meeting, and a shot to chest/head basically), but I still think this was, at least in part, because she felt ending it would help her wider overwhelm at that point. She'd shutdown and I was dealing with someone who was in survival mode. She may compartmentalise and have already moved on, she may have found it one of the hardest things she's ever done. It may well be elements of both. One thing I was never going to get from that call was any clues. So, you asked what I plan to do. For the moment, nothing. She needed time to regroup I need to respect this, at least for two months or so, for both her and myself. I'm using this time to reconnect, meet new people, and live a little while the pandemic is good in my area. However, we also far from ended on bad terms (no blocked numbers/social deletion etc) and clearly connected on a level she mentioned she hadn't felt much before. I have to trust my gut to a point and I feel that reaching out, in time, as a final port of closure for loss reaction as doctora called it, would be helpful for clarity and, it seems from these responses, not harmful to her. Our relationship was worth that. I expect when/if I do, I may well not hear back, and I'll be okay with that. In a way I'd understand. Friendship probably wouldn't be a realistic option given our relationship. My reasons for doing it: checking in on someone who I care for and showing no ill will if they do OR don't want to take things further, having gone through a difficult period, would matter. Either way, I hope that maybe the experience and our relationship will help her in working on the attachment issues. She's a great person and deserves the best chance of relationship happiness with someone in the future. |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 21:03:45 GMT
Yes, there is also the delayed reaction to loss. I'm aware of that by now , but it's not led me back into a relationship I ended. Rather, it keeps me holding in there longer than I should in some cases, giving my feelings a chance to arise in an unhealthy sense of staying in unhealthy patterns. In my current relationship, which is a committed one of just over a year, I know that a loss of feeling is followed by the regaining of feeling so I just ride it out and it will pass. It's usually die to stress (external) or conflict in the relationship. As for me, the delayed reaction doesn't have me go back to something I ended as by the time I get to that point I'm sure it's what I want. I guess it just takes me longer to get there, so it's more certain.
Now, my partner seems to be much more reactive and impulsive with his end of things. He breaks up in the heat of the moment in a reactive way. Then once his insecurities calm down and he's settled down or is convinced that there was a misunderstanding or something he's all in again. He's broken up with me a couple times and threatened a couple more (he says it wasn't threatening but his language goes there.) In the instances when he did this is was in emotional reaction when things were intense. Then I would talk him down because it felt devastating and also extreme in reaction to the issues. He's really sensitive to being slighted and I trigger him with my ways even though I'm not at all trying to slight him or undermine our relationship. I had to set a boundary around the breakup threats and I made it clear if he went there again we are done. Not because I want to lose him but because that's just too volatile. I respond in a burst of panic and reaching and desperation and then shut down pretty well. He's usually back to wanting to work things out before I have a chance to really resurface but it's just a matter of settling the emotion and we work forward.
The female in the original post doesn't seem to be coming from a place of volatility but of resignation and decisiveness. Of course I don't really know and none of us do. Depression can play into that but I would venture to say that relationships undertaken when one is tipping that way (as many people have during the pandemic) are uncertain in their origins. The same is true of mine in fact. We started to date after months of knowing each other otherwise, right before the shutdowns started happening. Instead of dissolving us, the situation has served to give us an opportunity to work through some things, because we both feel the want and need for the relationship. I lost a lot during the pandemic, it seems like every area of my life fell apart at some point. My boyfriend was really a good support for me and I'm thankful. At a different point in my life that may not have been true, I may not have turned to him. But age and loss has made me more vulnerable and aware. Him too. So it's a work in progress.
I discourage romanticizing and fantasizing about how what might be going on may not actually be what appears to be going on. Whatever it takes to get your own issues sorted out and get to a place of simple acceptance seems a good course. She broke up and has not given any indication of reversing that decision. There is a point when relationships (or non-relationships ) begin to look like games of chess, strategy. Not that it's ill intended- but trying to discover someone else's insides when they aren't sharing them with you is hazardous to your own health. As is basing your actions and emotions on what they may or may not do. Best of luck moving forward. If you have to work too hard to figure out if there is a chance after the relationship has literally ended ,I believe it's not viable at all. That's just my own perspective.
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Post by redhandletter2019 on May 3, 2021 21:48:38 GMT
Yes, there is also the delayed reaction to loss. I'm aware of that by now , but it's not led me back into a relationship I ended. Rather, it keeps me holding in there longer than I should in some cases, giving my feelings a chance to arise in an unhealthy sense of staying in unhealthy patterns. In my current relationship, which is a committed one of just over a year, I know that a loss of feeling is followed by the regaining of feeling so I just ride it out and it will pass. It's usually die to stress (external) or conflict in the relationship. As for me, the delayed reaction doesn't have me go back to something I ended as by the time I get to that point I'm sure it's what I want. I guess it just takes me longer to get there, so it's more certain. Now, my partner seems to be much more reactive and impulsive with his end of things. He breaks up in the heat of the moment in a reactive way. Then once his insecurities calm down and he's settled down or is convinced that there was a misunderstanding or something he's all in again. He's broken up with me a couple times and threatened a couple more (he says it wasn't threatening but his language goes there.) In the instances when he did this is was in emotional reaction when things were intense. Then I would talk him down because it felt devastating and also extreme in reaction to the issues. He's really sensitive to being slighted and I trigger him with my ways even though I'm not at all trying to slight him or undermine our relationship. I had to set a boundary around the breakup threats and I made it clear if he went there again we are done. Not because I want to lose him but because that's just too volatile. I respond in a burst of panic and reaching and desperation and then shut down pretty well. He's usually back to wanting to work things out before I have a chance to really resurface but it's just a matter of settling the emotion and we work forward. The female in the original post doesn't seem to be coming from a place of volatility but of resignation and decisiveness. Of course I don't really know and none of us do. Depression can play into that but I would venture to say that relationships undertaken when one is tipping that way (as many people have during the pandemic) are uncertain in their origins. The same is true of mine in fact. We started to date after months of knowing each other otherwise, right before the shutdowns started happening. Instead of dissolving us, the situation has served to give us an opportunity to work through some things, because we both feel the want and need for the relationship. I lost a lot during the pandemic, it seems like every area of my life fell apart at some point. My boyfriend was really a good support for me and I'm thankful. At a different point in my life that may not have been true, I may not have turned to him. But age and loss has made me more vulnerable and aware. Him too. So it's a work in progress. I discourage romanticizing and fantasizing about how what might be going on may not actually be what appears to be going on. Whatever it takes to get your own issues sorted out and get to a place of simple acceptance seems a good course. She broke up and has not given any indication of reversing that decision. There is a point when relationships (or non-relationships ) begin to look like games of chess, strategy. Not that it's ill intended- but trying to discover someone else's insides when they aren't sharing them with you is hazardous to your own health. As is basing your actions and emotions on what they may or may not do. Best of luck moving forward. If you have to work too hard to figure out if there is a chance after the relationship has literally ended ,I believe it's not viable at all. That's just my own perspective. This is also true, and something I need to remember. Also why I asked about the reassessment, as on the basis of the breakup alone, there's no point. Thank you for being so kind and thoughtful. It's also why I plan to take no action for a while, and, if I do so, only act when some proper time has passed - to make sure it's not holding me back. All the best to you and your partner. |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 22:05:58 GMT
Of course, redhandletter2019, no problem. I have been in a similar situation with infatuation in my case, with a more avoidant man. It was so confusing and messed me up a while. Anyone can fall prey to the what-ifs and inability to just accept a loss. Anyone. Especially during times of uncertainty and hardship as our world is seeing this past year or so. I think there is probably good reason to believe you will find a truly good match that has staying power. I am a believer that we find what we are ready for. If you use this as an opportunity to get to know yourself more even if that simply means knowing that you're hurt and disappointed an accepting of yourself and the circumstances, that can be huge. I'm probably not the best for giving advice there because my default is letting go and giving up when it comes to people. But there is some value in doing that while also feeling the loss. Some things are just not viable. It's healthy to know that. I have learned a lot and I'd like to think I'm also getting better at fighting for things that are worth it and not giving up. But I still don't fight for things that are just simply out of reach. That's a killer. Best of luck through all this. |
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Post by tnr9 on May 4, 2021 9:33:55 GMT
I expect when/if I do, I may well not hear back, and I'll be okay with that. In a way I'd understand. Friendship probably wouldn't be a realistic option given our relationship
I think this is a wise decision.. I wish I had set a clear boundary of closure and not try for friendship with the guy I dated. My reason obviously was different because I am still an anxious leaning FA in romantic regards and tend to be “all in” and thus my motive for friendship was to try for a pathway back into the relationship, while his motive was to simply keep a friendship that he did not want to lose. This ultimately was a disastrous decision for me as it kept me from truly “moving on” and still hooked in a “searching for the right response to win him back” mentality. Thankfully I did eventually (and once he had moved on with someone else) cut ties to focus on myself and he got married.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 14:15:45 GMT
redhandletter2019, I've been mulling this post over. I think it's because some things stood out to me about your hope/expectation for the relationship you want. None of this that I'm about to say is critical toward you nor is it intended to hurt. I hope it will help you understand the nature of avoidance a bit more so you don't meet an avoidant down the road and hope that you can provide the proper emotional/physical environment and get your needs for mutuality met. You mentioned that you would hope that she could communicate her needs, feelings etc. That's not really what people want from an avoidant, what people want is for an avoidant to want the same things essentially, that they want. I will attempt to summarize some basic "needs" of myself when I was actually dismissive toward relationships. Very avoidant emotionally or physically. These are not just words they are facts of the matter. Those facts tend to be emotionally injurious to a partner and cannot be changed or worked with from the outside. Avoidance is sometimes somehow romanticized, or misunderstood. It's the allure of the person who is "hard to get". In fact, the person who is "hard to get" is never "gotten". You'd likely want her to say "I need space" so you could give space. A more accurate expression might be "I feel uneasy and turned off in your presence, and I prefer to be alone. It's not you it's me." It would be nice to hear "I'd like to share my fears with you so you can help me feel a little less afraid." The true expression would go something like this: "I truly see it as a weakness and a turnoff when people express all this sickening 'vulnerability'. Grow up people, the world is hard and the strongest take care of themselves." Now, I'm not saying she's a hideous person. These are misunderstandings and defenses inside an avoidant that are not at all charming. They are actual judgements against people who are emotionally capable of interdependence as mentioned above. To hear how an avoidant feels or thinks they feel would be red flags, and indications that the person is not at all a good, safe, emotionally available partner. They may be a good person! Probably are! But not a good PARTNER. I know amazing avoidants who are brimming with goodness for the planet who are harmful in relationships. It's the nature of avoidants to avoid intimacy and there is no good way to work with that to gain intimacy. It's totally an inside job. So. Since they may or may not just come out and say this stuff, you have to look at the red flags in behavior (like breaking up, or going dark). I've oversimplified the issue of avoidance here and left out the true vulnerability of it, for a reason. That's because the reality of emotional unavailability is harsh and real for the partner and you really don't want to try to work with it. The avoidant will have to, in their own time and manner. Sometimes this comes through hardship and loss of a personal nature. I don't think it comes from finding the right partner who gets them, although in my case it has made a relationship possible and fruitful. The real change in me began years ago through various triumphs and tragedies. I hope this helps with a perspective- that she, as she is as an avoidant if she is avoidant, would hurt you unintentionally but hurt you all the same, no matter what you did to try to help.
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Post by redhandletter2019 on May 4, 2021 19:33:34 GMT
redhandletter2019 , I've been mulling this post over. I think it's because some things stood out to me about your hope/expectation for the relationship you want. None of this that I'm about to say is critical toward you nor is it intended to hurt. I hope it will help you understand the nature of avoidance a bit more so you don't meet an avoidant down the road and hope that you can provide the proper emotional/physical environment and get your needs for mutuality met. You mentioned that you would hope that she could communicate her needs, feelings etc. That's not really what people want from an avoidant, what people want is for an avoidant to want the same things essentially, that they want. I will attempt to summarize some basic "needs" of myself when I was actually dismissive toward relationships. Very avoidant emotionally or physically. These are not just words they are facts of the matter. Those facts tend to be emotionally injurious to a partner and cannot be changed or worked with from the outside. Avoidance is sometimes somehow romanticized, or misunderstood. It's the allure of the person who is "hard to get". In fact, the person who is "hard to get" is never "gotten".
You'd likely want her to say "I need space" so you could give space.
A more accurate expression might be "I feel uneasy and turned off in your presence, and I prefer to be alone. It's not you it's me."
It would be nice to hear "I'd like to share my fears with you so you can help me feel a little less afraid."
The true expression would go something like this: "I truly see it as a weakness and a turnoff when people express all this sickening 'vulnerability'. Grow up people, the world is hard and the strongest take care of themselves."Now, I'm not saying she's a hideous person. These are misunderstandings and defenses inside an avoidant that are not at all charming. They are actual judgements against people who are emotionally capable of interdependence as mentioned above. To hear how an avoidant feels or thinks they feel would be red flags, and indications that the person is not at all a good, safe, emotionally available partner. They may be a good person! Probably are! But not a good PARTNER. I know amazing avoidants who are brimming with goodness for the planet who are harmful in relationships. It's the nature of avoidants to avoid intimacy and there is no good way to work with that to gain intimacy. It's totally an inside job. So. Since they may or may not just come out and say this stuff, you have to look at the red flags in behavior (like breaking up, or going dark). I've oversimplified the issue of avoidance here and left out the true vulnerability of it, for a reason. That's because the reality of emotional unavailability is harsh and real for the partner and you really don't want to try to work with it. The avoidant will have to, in their own time and manner. Sometimes this comes through hardship and loss of a personal nature. I don't think it comes from finding the right partner who gets them, although in my case it has made a relationship possible and fruitful. The real change in me began years ago through various triumphs and tragedies. I hope this helps with a perspective- that she, as she is as an avoidant if she is avoidant, would hurt you unintentionally but hurt you all the same, no matter what you did to try to help. This hit home. Your posts have been really helpful in clarifying realities. Today I woke up and felt aware that messaging myself really isn't wise, (as I had felt before I suddenly decided last week that maybe some latent emotional reaction/reassessment would justify me doing so  ), it's really out of my control. As you say, there needs to be a big paradigm shift on her part, and it could take years or decades - certainly way beyond our relationship. The only thing I can hope is that maybe, somewhere, the breakdown of the relationship will push her in the right direction (even if only an inch) to confront and recognise the avoidance. Since you have been so overwhelmingly honest with me, I'll share my bottom line realisation as someone 'secure'. This whole situation has been particularly painful because, in my case, she could actually say 'I need space' etc (the first sentence of yours I put in bold), but hadn't quite got the second stage as to what to do beyond that and so, irrespective of *anything* - be that willingness to help from my side, or her desire to ride it out by taking space in the hope it wouldn't be doomed - the end result was always going to be the vulnerability as weakness attitude (the second sentence of yours in bold). I can't tell you how frustrating and hurtful that is. Not so much for for me, but looking at her situation. It's currently an unbridgeable gap between one person who is so loving, funny, understanding and committed and another, who through fear and trauma not of her own doing (whatever, I won't speculate), forces an emotional shutdown. I know it's a journey she has to go on, and, since she was so absolute in not letting anyone or anything in, she hadn't got to that point YET in dating terms (although as alexandra said I hope and think she will). Whoever meets her at the right time will be very lucky. I've got to leave it to her, and move on myself. Who knows maybe one day she'll message and we can talk things through, but it's not something I can chase. |
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Post by alexandra on May 4, 2021 19:58:54 GMT
Whoever meets her at the right time will be very lucky. Maaaaaaybe. I understand why you think that, but it's still romanticizing her and the situation, which will continue to make this harder on you. In my experience, this has never panned out with an ex-partner. I absolutely know people who earned secure from avoidance IRL, but more often the DAs are still single at ~40 years old and the FAs are not single but are in unhappy relationships they only half commit to which may also involve children. I have one DA ex who is finally getting married and it seems from afar like it's actually a good relationship, but it took him 15 years after our very amicable breakup to seriously commit to someone! And I have no idea what kind of dynamics that involves and if I'd consider myself lucky with those kinds of dynamics since I don't know him anymore or if he's gotten secure. But it doesn't matter to me, either. Hopefully he's as happy as it seems, but more important to me is the dynamics of my current romantic relationship make me happy and work really well and the rest of the past doesn't matter besides all the lessons I learned. Not because I don't care about my more serious former partners, but because I have no control over how they're living their own lives, only mine. Again, wishing her well in your head is good. Mourning your heartbreak is good. But you can still flip the script to feeling excited (once you're ready) to find someone who is a better match for you rather than positioning your DA ex as the one who got away. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 20:08:37 GMT
It's normal to romanticize.... and hey my partner feels very lucky but I have a long string of people who would find that hard to believe. Today, they are pretty messed up and I am not... the point is, potential is NOTHING until it is actualized. That includes yours. You have to actualize your own potential to find and be in a healthy relationship and that means discovering ANY potential that you have to sacrifice your needs for someone you have to "help" or guide.
To her credit, she let you go and didn't lead you on. You are free to grieve and move on! It's a blessing. Not that she is horrible but she isn't the one who can meet you where you need to be met, and it's a good thing to see that.
Care more about yourself than her, now forward. Then you will find what you are looking for.
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simon
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Post by simon on May 5, 2021 13:52:48 GMT
Sorry to be direct, I don't have much time Redhand.
1) It seems like there is a lot of rationalizing and intellectualizing the situation and her motives. Yes, I can understand that you want to understand what happened, but to be honest... it feels a bit like a deflection and avoidance of you "feeling" and turning inward, and acknowledging your own pain, and grieving the felt reality of the situation.
2) It also seems (relatedly) that there is somewhat of a fawning codependence response, how hard it must be on "her", how she needs to heal, all these things happening to this poor girl. I appreciate empathy and compassion, but I am not FULLY buying the hippie-buddha-love-the-world "I only want the best for her and someone will be lucky to have her" act, to be honest. I think it's projection and denial, again as a defense against you really digging inward and touching your own pain. Sure, I can understand that a lot can happen in 5 months, but it seems clear by now that it wasn't all bliss and likely there is a deeper reason you were SO affected, and are avoiding those feelings and that lesson lurking underneath them for yourself. How are YOU? Really, how are YOU doing? How has this affected YOU? What are YOU learning about yourself? How are YOU healing? How are YOU moving forward? YOU also deserve to hurt and feel; put away the martyrdom for a bit and take care of yourself.
3) The truth is that if you really want what is best for her and hope she can feel motivated to grow, and if you really were that special to her, than the best gift you can give her might be to lose you.
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Post by bluehour on May 13, 2021 13:47:02 GMT
Hello, DA here. I've spoken to a ton of other DAs and have dated other DAs.
Everyone is different and it depends on the breakup.
A lot of DAs (including myself) will start to subconsciously shut down emotionally post honeymoon phase when intimacy advances or the situation seems to feel more like a relationship or the reality of it is realized. We often confuse this lack of feeling (because thats what it feels like, we can't feel anything) as a loss of interest. Other DAs will feel overwhelmed with conscious fear and engulfment and pull away. And then there are others that are really dealing with real life shit and since relationships are low priority, it's one of the first to get slashed.
Anyway, to answer your question about whether DA exes reassess post shutdown (aka, do they come back), the answer is absolutely. Honestly, I think this happens more often with DAs than APs and FAs. APs and FAs seem to move on quickly. Again, it depends on how the relationship ended. In this case, it was non-dramatic so that leaves the door open.
Your DA ex is quite self aware and is getting therapy. If it was me, I'd prob take her back if she came back. But... this leaves you in a weird place of holding onto hope. If DAs come back, its generally within 3 months (2-3 month mark being the most common, I've noticed).
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Post by maryisback on May 19, 2021 19:07:24 GMT
Whoever meets her at the right time will be very lucky. Maaaaaaybe. I understand why you think that, but it's still romanticizing her and the situation, which will continue to make this harder on you. In my experience, this has never panned out with an ex-partner. I absolutely know people who earned secure from avoidance IRL, but more often the DAs are still single at ~40 years old and the FAs are not single but are in unhappy relationships they only half commit to which may also involve children. I have one DA ex who is finally getting married and it seems from afar like it's actually a good relationship, but it took him 15 years after our very amicable breakup to seriously commit to someone! And I have no idea what kind of dynamics that involves and if I'd consider myself lucky with those kinds of dynamics since I don't know him anymore or if he's gotten secure. But it doesn't matter to me, either. Hopefully he's as happy as it seems, but more important to me is the dynamics of my current romantic relationship make me happy and work really well and the rest of the past doesn't matter besides all the lessons I learned. Not because I don't care about my more serious former partners, but because I have no control over how they're living their own lives, only mine. Again, wishing her well in your head is good. Mourning your heartbreak is good. But you can still flip the script to feeling excited (once you're ready) to find someone who is a better match for you rather than positioning your DA ex as the one who got away. I have to give this a huge thumbs up. I am DA and I have had a few serious relationships in my life, but I have never been married and I don't foresee that ever happening. I have kept in touch with most exes and guess what, they are still single too. My exes may be AP or FA, but they are also still avoidant. |
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) meant we had to face some potential obstacles/issues beyond a 'normal' couple, but they were never a problem for her on any level. Nothing shook her. She was the most understanding person I've *ever* met in that that regard. An eternal positive that's (I think) permanently shifted my view for the better.
), it's really out of my control. As you say, there needs to be a big paradigm shift on her part, and it could take years or decades - certainly way beyond our relationship. The only thing I can hope is that maybe, somewhere, the breakdown of the relationship will push her in the right direction (even if only an inch) to confront and recognise the avoidance.