sara
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Post by sara on Nov 4, 2017 1:19:15 GMT
My FA bf changed completely about 3 months ago, from loving and caring, became extremely mean and respectful when a fight occurs and wants to exit the scene or relationship immediately. I have experienced him being capable of having very calm and respectful conversations when having an argument with me, but he is extremely sensitive and reacts to my mood (anxious) very harshly and it clashes a lot for the past few weeks. He becomes very mean, disrespectful and turns on me with using very personal stuff that I told him against me. He is usually a very sweet person, but as soon as I am asking and moving for more closeness, he lashes out and feels trapped. Momentarily I am considering to end the relationship as I fear that there is not much hope to ever get a real commitment from him and having my needs met, mostly I am not going to allow this kind of disrespect when in an argument. Plus he makes it pretty clear that he does not love me yet.
Are FAs doing or trying pretty much everything to keep you at arm length and push you away in order for you not to come closer? And is it even possible for an FA to ever chill out and let anyone closer when there is enough trust? It is just so tragic, considering that avoidants exactly want the same closeness and love like everyone else, but they just cant and just do not know that they want that.
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cate
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Post by cate on Nov 4, 2017 1:49:45 GMT
Hi Sara -
Unfortunately I just had to end my relationship with a FA because of this. He started out as very sweet and caring. He was a gentleman - opened doors and all that. In other words - the perfect BF. Then when I wanted to know if we were dating he pulled the just friends card. I told myself labels weren’t important. Actions spoke louder than words right?
So I left that alone because our relationship worked somehow. We traveled, spent time together, met the family and friends. He even went on vacation with my family and me.
He talked about buying a place together but as soon as we made an offer he started acting skittish. When the deal fell through he started an intensifying cycle of ‘push and pull’. We would get close and he’d want space. Then it was us spending too much time together and I was distracting him from stuff he needed to do. Then he took long trips overseas by himself and when I got upset - I was being a drama queen. He then started talking about relocating hundreds of miles away but didn’t see why that should change our relationship.
Keep Ep in mind through all this there were periods of pull - did I think I could move with him, maybe I could join him for part of his trip overseas, why don’t we spend more time together.
It became too too much so as I mentioned in my post - I had to lay it all out. And he chose to withdraw. So I ended it.
I dont know if your your situation is different. Maybe your BF will get better but based on my experience the cycle accelerates usually.
Im sorry you’re going through this. Even if you see it logically it doesn’t hurt less.
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sara
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Post by sara on Nov 4, 2017 2:52:18 GMT
Hi Cate
Yes, I just saw your post, which inspired me to start a new threat with the hope for some positive responses, but I know and experience the reality already. I know the answer and I also unfortunately know the solution as well, I just still have hope. I am with my bf for only 6 months, but see the scary pattern already and having a crazy past relationship with a very difficult guy before, I am not planning to go back into something like that again.
My story sounds very similar... mine was so attentive, sweet and caring at the beginning, already talked about possibly moving together at some point or moving to a different country and having future plans. Now, my tiny flaws seem like a huge red flag and this disrespectful treatment in arguments is a major deal breaker for me. The sad thing is that I am in the therapy business and have therapy myself, so I have a very clear understanding what is going on with him, I can analyze all his behavior, which he does not like, but him being at point 0 does not want to hear any feedback and is already thinking about quitting the just started therapy. I asked for a break to clear my head and think about the next step because I am simply worried that this could never go anywhere. Even if he would go to therapy, it takes literally years to get a little bit better considering that he has the only knowledge that he cannot commit and questions why. But all my other 'accusations' are just simply 'dramatic'.
Do you think there would be any way for you to get back with your Ex? I am sure he is still contacting you? And to your other threat I can just tell you that I would not take any 'crazy talk' seriously, that's what I tried at least. Someone who is with you for 3 years is definitely not seeing you as just a friend, but he is absolutely terrified of anything getting close to him and still sabotages the entire thing, which is just incredibly sad and so hurtful for you. I am very sure he had strong feelings for you, otherwise he would have not been with you, but how would he ever be able to admit that....
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cate
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Post by cate on Nov 4, 2017 13:02:16 GMT
Hi Sara -
Wow. Your BF is considering therapy? That’s a big step. I’ve tried to get mine to go but he’s always talking about how it’s a scam and they don’t really want to help you because it will disrupt their cash flow. I have been to therapy and like you see it for what it is but somehow that doesn’t make it easier.
I too wanted to see if a positive outcome was possible with a FA. But it seems that without outside intervention it’s not possible. Basically they need to re wire their brains. Because the thing we want triggers their fight or flee tendency. These forums are helping me to see that. And I inch closer to accepting it.
As for my ex - it’s only been about a week so no he hasn’t been in touch. I honestly don’t know if he will be. The last thing he texted me was that it will hurt for him too but that I deserve better. So he seemed clear headed about it. And given how they can turn their emotions off - I wouldn’t be surprised if he moves on.
As for getting ting back together? I don’t know. My head tells me not to do it. But my heart isn’t so sure. I hope with more time it becomes clearer. I can’t get back together with him until he acknowledges that we ARE in a committed relationship but he would rather I leave than do this so it’s not a good prospect from where I’m sitting. Without real changes - it’s just the same old dance.
And yes yes I know he had feelings for me beyond just friends. He even told me he loved me and called me his GF. I guess that should have been my first clue it was gonna go bad. That was the pull and a big one at that. The push was only a matter of time. It was a big push which was why I forced our confrontation. I couldn’t take the roller coaster anymore.
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sara
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Post by sara on Nov 4, 2017 17:22:11 GMT
Hi comeheregoaway,
Thanks for your insight, it helps a lot to understand better. I am actually surprised by your positive response as I was pretty clear that this will not work out also due to all the stories on this forum.
Well, our fighting after 3 months started when I mentioned to not like a something he said and him trying to ignore it and me feeling disrespected, so I started to argue, which again made him back up by saying immediately that sometimes he still wishes to be single and not having to deal with relationship stuff like that, which again made me very anxious and spiked my fear ob abandonment, I am AP. This is how the back and forth started, but with him clearly feeding into it and 'playing' with me - he keeps testing me and pushes me verbally into the corner to see my reaction that I am not cheating on him, as well as to prove my feelings for him. I am very self-aware to what is happening in these situations, yet I am also just a gf who is very hurt in these moments and reacts emotionally. He always seems to keep me at arm-length and has one foot out of the door, which makes me incredibly anxious.
I never betrayed his trust, but noticed that it does not need much. For example I could not call him back once for 2 hours and he entirely resented me after that, said how stupid he was to even consider asking me for my opinion on an issue and the 'damage is done' reaction when I tried to explain that I simply could not call back right away. When I apologized a few days later and told him that I did not mean to make him feel 'abandoned', I think I triggered something huge because he started provoking me to a fight with a stupid topic and demanded a break from the relationship afterwards because he is stressed out and my fear of rejection is not sexy. He fights very dirty in these situation, makes me cry, and twists everything around. So this is 'normal' or what? I see a clear pattern and how I have to walk on eggshells to not offend him by accident... and then again, it is ridiculous because where am I in this whole relationship then, you know?!
I still do have some hope because I do see that he is very capable of having a calm and very respectful argument with me with a resolution when we are both very calm, but unfortunately we are both very sensitive and react to each others' emotions. He is a very smart guy, but still not very self-aware about his whole FA situation. He is also not very receptive for my feedback and already wants to stop therapy because 'it seems to be BS'. The only way for me to stay in this is him sticking to therapy, there is not other way. I am in intensive therapy because I want to get better and I cannot have him next to me attacking me constantly and making me miserable, but also working on himself. I also noticed that as soon as I am questioning the relationship, he becomes very aware, worried, and wants to adapt to my needs. It is a constant, very childish game. My biggest issue, next to the being suddenly attacked, is the lack of emotional intimacy and spending time with me. The more time I want to spend with him, the less he wants to spend with me, and I suffer the most because of this.
So with all this information, what would your suggestion be as a DA of how to approach him and treat him? Do I have to be crazy self-aware all the time to make sure not to trigger him? And what could keep him calm? How can I give him reassurance and not trigger his abandonment issues? And you must know, how possible is it at some point to have a real committed, healthy relationship?
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sara
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Post by sara on Nov 4, 2017 17:48:32 GMT
Hi Cate,
I was also surprised when my bf suddenly signed up for therapy, but I think it does need a lot to admit that there is something not right about how you feel, think or behave. And if they do not see that there is something wrong, there is no way to convince them, they have to realize it themselves. I took the approach that I very openly talked about therapy and what I have overcame so far and how much better I feel because of it. But yeah, he is already thinking of quitting, which is a deal breaker for me. And like I mentioned, even if, it takes years of hard work and it is tough and mostly FAs, who tend to run...this is going to be just tough.
You know, the first thing my therapist said to me is, he basically wants the exact same thing like I do, getting closer to someone and having a loving relationship, but FA and AP just react very differently. And apparently we admire each other because we want to have what the other one does not - he wants to have my ability of allowing intimacy and feeling close, and I want more independency. That's why AP is so attracted to FA, DA and the other way around, it does make sense, but is still messed up.
I think your Ex is going to reach out to you after a few weeks because you are not pursuing him anymore, so he is trying to get it back. I do feel you by having your heart feeling something else, obviously you loved that person very much. Are you AP as well? I still think you are very strong to walk away and to show your boundaries, it does take a lot after a long back-and-forth and investment like that.
I am just asking myself, if an AP is even going to be able to find a happier fit with a secure type or if it would be perceived as 'boring' because the drama is not here anymore? I just had this thought recently and do not know what to think about that.
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cate
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Post by cate on Nov 4, 2017 19:45:53 GMT
Thanks Sara.
I learned all this in therapy. My therapist said for relationships with FA - it’s basically what can you tolerate. Because they can become more secure but it takes years of work. Years of the push pull. I’m a AP trying to become more secure. It helped that my therapist told me most healthy people would be triggered by the behaviors my ex exhibited.
And youre right. The Universe has a cruel sense of humor by making the AP and avoidants the ‘perfect’ match. We are definitely drawn to each other. I do think my ex was a AP but he was with his ex for 5 years and she sounded like a DA. From what he told me he held on to the relationship despite how badly she treated him. Based on that experience I think his underlying abandonment issues got worse and his anxiety turned worse where he became a FA. Then I met him. Lucky me.
I dont feel strong sometimes. I hope I can be when my ex reaches out. I know he basically sees this as part of the push and pull cycle so once he calms down he will try the pull. I just have to figure out what to do.
And yes yes I think that’s the challenge for us APs. To not feel bored in a relationship that’s healthy and secure. As my therapist has said repeatedly- we are drawn to what we know. Even Imago Theory states this. We subconsciously pick partners that remind us of the parent we had the most problems with. Which is just attachment theory in reverse.
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sara
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Post by sara on Nov 5, 2017 20:03:47 GMT
Hi Cate
Well frankly, it is not very encouraging hearing all the stories with years of push pull. I am still not healy, still AP, but I am aware enough to know that I don't want it like that. And even being aware that we are attracted to what we know and the drama, shouldn't we just be more conscious and brave to stop this cycle and just walk away and try to get better by ourselves?! With or without that person. And then again, my therapist just said, if it is not him, it is going to be a different person that I am going to experience similar issues. Not very encouraging again, but there is some truth to that. All I am saying is that I am not willing to just stay in a relationship and suffer, even though I know it can heal me. It spikes my anxiety way too much and even if it does help, there should be still a good amount of love, affection, and intimacy, and I am just worried that I am not going to get that. I have to see how that conversation in a week is going to be and if he is receptive and willing to accept my feedback and stop this hostile behavior towards me.
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Post by kristyrose on Nov 6, 2017 21:20:01 GMT
Hi Sara,
First off, I applaud you for being in therapy. I am as well and just like Cate, who I also applaud, I was told that it comes down to what you can tolerate and as a fellow AP, that can feel impossible.
I am dating my ex bf- FA to the max, for the past 5 months after he broke up with me after 2 years. I have a way better understanding the 2nd time around and it seems that he is even more open with me now that the pressure is off. Only problem is, I am not getting what I want and need, which is for him to at least acknowledge we are back together.
The silver lining right now for you, is the fact that your bf is willing to go to therapy- that is HUGE. My ex would not go no matter how much I explained it would be for his benefit, not just ours as a couple. That is a very positive step, despite the major obstacles you are facing. My ex could be very cold and mean during fights as well, I read that sometimes FA types do this in order to feel something. Hard to understand, but I can see how it makes sense logically.
Keep posting and getting support here! It sounds like you are willing to put in the work, but have a healthy sense of your limitations and boundaries. That is a really good thing as well--- keep taking care of YOU!
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Post by kristyrose on Nov 6, 2017 21:25:08 GMT
I dont feel strong sometimes. I hope I can be when my ex reaches out. I know he basically sees this as part of the push and pull cycle so once he calms down he will try the pull. I just have to figure out what to do. Hi Cate, From my experience it is most likely he will come back and that is where you will be tested. I was able to go NC for 40 days, but his persistence lead me straight to his house! Some days I regret seeing him again, other days I am happier he is back in my life. I would use this time to think about what you need because when he inevitably reaches out, you will be faced with the very arduous task of looking out for yourself first! As we all know that is not possible when dating an FA, so do keep that in mind. Right now I find myself struggling to keep myself in mind while working with the relationship I now have with my ex. There are definite pros and cons- for instance he is way more relaxed and open now that the pressure is off, however, I am left in a constant state of worry wondering if he will ever acknowledge we are back together. This is not a road I recommend, so do think about that when he does come back- what does he really want? Is he willing to address and make some changes? Therapy really is the only way, so if he's not willing, this could be a deal breaker for you. Just think of what you truly want and need first. Sending you lots of positive thoughts... |
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sara
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Post by sara on Nov 6, 2017 22:39:12 GMT
Hi Kristyrose
Thanks for your words, it does help a lot and also for sharing your experience as well.
I am a huge believer in therapy and went there for my AP issues and now it's a good thing that I am in an actual relationship with an FA now to also learn how to properly communicate, learn how to fight, and also to change my patterns. BUT, if my bf still decides not to continue therapy because he was already talking about quitting after the first session for stupid reasons, then that is a dealbreaker.
So what made your bf break up with you? And was the getting back together the typical push pull-manner? And can you please elaborate how he is different now, like you mentioned "the pressure is off", how? I always feel like this type of relationship screams for one of the parties to having to play a role, mostly the one with more awareness of the conditions, and having to show the cold shoulder most of the time, in order for the FA to get confused and interested again to come closer naturally and feel attracted again, but to what price? For us to deny our real selves and to suppress our needs?! I still do not know if I want to continue this because I am worried that my very basic needs will never be fully met.
The issue with letting go is that, and I don't know how you and other members felt when you met your SO, but when I met my bf, it felt like I met the person I am supposed to be with because of so many similarities, we just entirely clicked, and kept mentioning to each other that we are like twins. This is why I have a very hard time to just walk away because I feel like this could be big, and I do not know, if that is a typical AP thing to think, or AP and FA 'delusional' thing that we feel when we meet.
Thanks, yes I do have a very healthy sense of my boundaries, but very little patience, which is not good in this case. I also constantly want to walk away, my therapist has to convince me on a weekly basis to stick around in order to break my pattern. It is just so frustrating seeing my bf walking in the dark and having NO clue what is going on with him, but only wanting to listen to what I have to say to that partially. Let's see, I really don't know what is going to happen.
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cate
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Post by cate on Nov 6, 2017 23:47:56 GMT
I swear - this forum is like finding like minded people and realizing you’re not crazy because these relationships are crazy making.
Kristyrose - I don’t know about my ex reaching out. He hates what he calls ‘chasing’ and reaching out to me would definitely be chasing. But if he does I know I can’t fall back into the cycle. Therapy has to happen. Or if I’m ready - we can be friends. In many ways - we get along better this way. The thing that drove me crazy was HE always pushed our relationship forward. He invited me to travel with him. He booked hotels and asked for 1 bed instead of 2. He talked about us living together. But when I ask if we are together it’s suddenly ‘you’re like a family friend’ I hope things work out the way you want with your FA. It takes a lot of work and awareness with them and they take up a lot of ‘space’ in the relationship.
Sara - I know exactly what you mean. In many ways my ex is the male version of my lifelong best friend. I’ve always said I need to date her male counterpart. Be careful what you wish for! Plus it took us 3 tries to actually make a go of things. So I feel like it was fated. But was it fated for him to come into my life and teach me things or are we supposed to be forever? I don’t know. But I know I should matter too. And if it’s meant to be - it will be. I’m actually starting therapy again to deal with the break up. It’s so ironic that the ones who really need it resist it
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Post by kristyrose on Nov 7, 2017 1:41:52 GMT
So what made your bf break up with you? And was the getting back together the typical push pull-manner? And can you please elaborate how he is different now, like you mentioned "the pressure is off", how? I always feel like this type of relationship screams for one of the parties to having to play a role, mostly the one with more awareness of the conditions, and having to show the cold shoulder most of the time, in order for the FA to get confused and interested again to come closer naturally and feel attracted again, but to what price? For us to deny our real selves and to suppress our needs?! I still do not know if I want to continue this because I am worried that my very basic needs will never be fully met. The issue with letting go is that, and I don't know how you and other members felt when you met your SO, but when I met my bf, it felt like I met the person I am supposed to be with because of so many similarities, we just entirely clicked, and kept mentioning to each other that we are like twins. This is why I have a very hard time to just walk away because I feel like this could be big, and I do not know, if that is a typical AP thing to think, or AP and FA 'delusional' thing that we feel when we meet. Hi Sara, Ok, so let me first address your questions, then I do have some comments on the rest as well. My ex broke up with me because he said we fought too much and had a toxic dynamic. He also said he wasn't sure he had enough feelings for me to keep trying. He said if we didn't fight so much he would stay in it though. So, I did the no-contact rule as I mentioned because I was absolutely devastated! I too thought he was the ONE- and I'm divorced and have had long term relationships, but this felt different. Also, his friends kept telling me that he hasn't been with someone this long, or brought them around to meet everyone etc, so I thought it could be different for him too. I later learned from his best friend that he would often use conflict as a way to distance himself from someone and eventually break-up. Apparently, he does this to his best friend as well, but they have known each other 20+ years so he has learned to deal with it. At any rate, once I stopped all contact he kept reaching out via texts, email and he sent me a card. None of it even suggested getting back together, he just said he hoped I was well, that my friends are so lucky to have me in their lives (he claimed he wanted a friendship with me the night he dumped me and stated he normally does not do this) so I took all of this as just a bid to be my friend, which I did not want at all. Finally, he sent another text saying how hurt he was and I caved and saw him. What I did not expect, is that we became physical right away and jumped right back into dating as we once did. That was unexpected to be honest. During our relationship he would stonewall and pull away after every fight- when we got too close, he would simply say he needed space and communicate with me less- only to turn around a day or two later and come right back. So I would say, the getting back together was pretty typical of push/pull only on the more extreme end of him dumping me and me ignoring him for a long time. So when I say he is different now, I mean he is more open to telling me stories from his childhood, he is less guarded in general and seems to take any little bickering in stride, even staying at my house with me for hours to hash out an argument. He used to pick fights to get space, he doesn't do this. He also seems to be more considerate at times, of my feelings- i say at times because he's not consistent and its usually about him. He will still pull away though, for instance just last weekend he pulled away, said he wanted to be alone or catch up with other friends, only to text me by sunday asking me to come over. When I emailed him about how this bothers me, he turned around and invited me over for the weekend early in the week. So, it seems like the pressure of being in a committed relationship is off, so he feels less constrained and obligated, even though he tells me when he is going home to visit family for the week and won't be around, or a text response may be delayed. This is all versus just doing whatever the heck he wants leaving me to wonder. Still though, the push/pull is here, just not so strong. In terms of roles, yes- the one with more knowledge of the dynamics has to do the mind gymnastics and suppress their own needs to meet the needs of the Avoidant. I do voice my needs when I feel I can do so in a safe way- like an email and I choose my words carefully, eliminating any emotion. This strategy has been effective in my being heard I have to say. But the only time I really give the cold shoulder is when I've hit my limit and tell him I need a break (very rare i hate to admit) or when he is ignoring me and I just follow suite until I hear from him. I don't think we need to do this- meaning, if I just go with what I want to do in terms of contacting him or expressing myself, whilst still giving him the space he needs, I can at times get what I need in return. It's just such a delicate, time consuming and exhaustion dance. So, at this point I'm trying to see how things go because admittedly now that he is more open I am enjoying the time with him and honestly, I just still love him so much. Btw, I don't think we are delusional, yes the dynamics of AP and FA/DA are very dependent on how the attachments play out, but that is not the only component. I feel true love for this person, so it's hard to walk away. |
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