|
|
Post by tnr9 on Nov 3, 2021 19:20:46 GMT
I'm curious to know if there are anxious/fa members here who experienced the rumination trap post-breakup and were able to get out of it sooner rather than later. I know some have taken years and even after years still return to rumination about the same ex. If anyone was able to resolve the breakup rumination and move on more securely, what worked for you? I understand it's a process over time, and over subsequent relationships, but what are the keys to success? alexandra and @shiningstar have accomplished secure, maybe they will share some experience on the rumination piece? My experience with working toward secure involves different challenges so I don't know how to support the rumination well. My therapist raised a very good point today…rumination is there to protect from really being in “anger”. And the anger normally is greater then just the current situation….it requires facing the anger from the past…parents who were not kind or were unable to be fully present. I think the first step is to acknowledge that there is unresolved anger….and then work to unpack it….back to the source. Also….she and I have determined that some of the anger is related back to not speaking my truth….and as such….she and I are looking for ways to empower me. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Nov 3, 2021 20:08:10 GMT
I am so sorry…and I can relate….although it did not stop the rumination…I used to say out loud…the story in my head is….and that would at least remind me that it was not real…although it always felt real. Is there anyone who can take your mind off this for a bit…..is there a friend you can visit? If it was just a story in my head it would be easier to take lol. The reality of it is what burns. Yeah I have a lot of friends that always rally round me during heart breaks. But I find it hard to appreciate them. It's like you have all these wonderful people showing you they love you and you just want the one that treat you like crap. You know the feeling.... Unless you have been snooping at her bedroom window, you don’t really know what they look like having sex…unless you are replacing your experience with theirs. That is what I mean by story….you don’t know what you don’t know…your brain is filling in details as if it is true. But let’s address the anger…..let’s get out what is really going on….what really burns you up? What unmet need did she not fill? |
|
|
|
Post by krolle on Nov 3, 2021 21:25:56 GMT
If it was just a story in my head it would be easier to take lol. The reality of it is what burns. Yeah I have a lot of friends that always rally round me during heart breaks. But I find it hard to appreciate them. It's like you have all these wonderful people showing you they love you and you just want the one that treat you like crap. You know the feeling.... Unless you have been snooping at her bedroom window, you don’t really know what they look like having sex…unless you are replacing your experience with theirs. That is what I mean by story….you don’t know what you don’t know…your brain is filling in details as if it is true. But let’s address the anger…..let’s get out what is really going on….what really burns you up? What unmet need did she not fill? I agree I don't know exactly what is going on behind closed doors. But nobody can. Thats why we use heuristics and patterns to make decisions. I know what happened because of probability, not certainty. I feel angry at being used and duped. And angry at myself for not seeing that I was. I feel angry that I was lied to and totally bought it. I'm angry at the current "use and carelessly discard" nature of modern dating. I'm angry that I need intimate connection with a woman, but am absolutely terrified of it. I'm angry that she doesn't care about my pain enough to even have said goodbye. I'm angry at myself that I have done all these things to other people before. Everything she said was totally incongruent and I had no idea until the end. The signs were there. She mentioned feeling absolute relief when she broke up with her last serious partner. She was also complaining about her last situationship when we first got together, and that they couldn't let go, and were acting too needy. And now I realised she gave me her number whilst they were still seeing each other. She mentioned a lot of things that indicated she just monkey branches from person to person and feels something just "wasnt right" with the last one. And so just ignored it. She said she wasn't really a very sexual person usually, but seemed to have a pretty ravenous appetite at first. Until the shut down began, then sex was off the table completely. I feel angry at myself for finally allowing myself to really feel strongly about someone that I probably shouldn't have. For the first time in a long time I got a feeling in my chest that felt wonderful, not just infatuation like. I remember watching her get out the car one day shortly before she started to fade me out and getting a little choked up. Thinking, I really like this one. I think I'll take the chance and keep her around. I'm also angry I really tried to overcome my fears this time and it backfired. She asked for me to open up and be more available, and instead of getting scared and withdrawing, or seeing her as too demanding, I caugh myself consciously and said, yes, I'd really like to meet that need for you. And then I really opened myself up to being available. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 21:48:22 GMT
Unless you have been snooping at her bedroom window, you don’t really know what they look like having sex…unless you are replacing your experience with theirs. That is what I mean by story….you don’t know what you don’t know…your brain is filling in details as if it is true. But let’s address the anger…..let’s get out what is really going on….what really burns you up? What unmet need did she not fill? I agree I don't know exactly what is going on behind closed doors. But nobody can. Thats why we use heuristics and patterns to make decisions. I know what happened because of probability, not certainty. I feel angry at being used and duped. And angry at myself for not seeing that I was. I feel angry that I was lied to and totally bought it. I'm angry at the current "use and carelessly discard" nature of modern dating. I'm angry that I need intimate connection with a woman, but am absolutely terrified of it. I'm angry that she doesn't care about my pain enough to even have said goodbye. I'm angry at myself that I have done all these things to other people before. Everything she said was totally incongruent and I had no idea until the end. The signs were there. She mentioned feeling absolute relief when she broke up with her last serious partner. She was also complaining about her last situationship when we first got together, and that they couldn't let go, and were acting too needy. And now I realised she gave me her number whilst they were still seeing each other. She mentioned a lot of things that indicated she just monkey branches from person to person and feels something just "wasnt right" with the last one. And so just ignored it. She said she wasn't really a very sexual person usually, but seemed to have a pretty ravenous appetite at first. Until the shut down began, then sex was off the table completely. I feel angry at myself for finally allowing myself to really feel strongly about someone that I probably shouldn't have. For the first time in a long time I got a feeling in my chest that felt wonderful, not just infatuation like. I remember watching her get out the car one day shortly before she started to fade me out and getting a little choked up. Thinking, I really like this one. I think I'll take the chance and keep her around. I'm also angry I really tried to overcome my fears this time and it backfired. She asked for me to open up and be more available, and instead of getting scared and withdrawing, or seeing her as too demanding, I caugh myself consciously and said, yes, I'd really like to meet that need for you. And then I really opened myself up to being available. It's good and will be helpful to talk about all that. I will be out of pocket for a bit but wanted to acknowledge your anger. It can be really healthy to recognize all this, so that you can work with it and keep things conscious. |
|
|
|
Post by krolle on Nov 3, 2021 22:11:45 GMT
Thankyou for listening to me guys.
I think It hurts the most to be so casually replaced. If a break up happens because you end up being incompatible, or your fighting a lot, It's hurts, but I can usually accept it.
But to be discarded, replaced and ignored when things are going well is agonizing. It reinforces my existing belief that I am not good enough. That what I am as a human being is not worth anything. It reinforces my worst fears that I am deserving of shame.
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Nov 3, 2021 23:59:33 GMT
Thankyou for listening to me guys. I think It hurts the most to be so casually replaced. If a break up happens because you end up being incompatible, or your fighting a lot, It's hurts, but I can usually accept it. But to be discarded, replaced and ignored when things are going well is agonizing. It reinforces my existing belief that I am not good enough. That what I am as a human being is not worth anything. It reinforces my worst fears that I am deserving of shame. Of course that hurts….and all it says is that she has issues with respect and communication….2 key aspects of a healthy relationship. But it doesn’t say anything about you…..I am glad you phrased it as “reinforced my existing belief”….that is also my belief when I ruminate…that things are not fair, that people leave me because of something wrong with me and my therapist is very good at correcting me…..the fight is against that belief that was placed by my parents. It never seemed ok to be angry at them…it was me…it was my fault…I was not enough. But my therapist is chipping away at that perspective by reminding me that they had a responsibility to me….that they did not keep. And I have a right to be angry at what happened. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Nov 4, 2021 0:00:23 GMT
krolle, I've had a bunch of comments but not enough time to make them. But remember that if you're getting discarded when something is going "well" it's because either the other person is too scared of something going well and only feels comfortable in a dysfunctional situation OR they are only attracted to chaos. So that should actually tell you that your instincts are right, things were going relatively well and you weren't imagining it, which is the opposite of shameful. Opening up the way you were practicing doing isn't bad or shameful, even if things didn't work out with the other person. You need to keep flexing that vulnerability and authenticity muscle so that you're available when you meet someone capable of receiving it. Until then, it's still a learning experience about what you're looking for and what red flags you should take note about. Then you keep trying until at some point you will stop kissing frogs and find someone who you can go a further distance with. Hopefully, over time, you do start to see a trend of your longer connections getting better and better even if they don't work. I kept dating insecure guys for a while even after I was secure, but I left the situations on my own volition faster and faster and was more and more open to more stable and serious men than in the past.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2021 4:10:52 GMT
Thankyou for listening to me guys. I think It hurts the most to be so casually replaced. If a break up happens because you end up being incompatible, or your fighting a lot, It's hurts, but I can usually accept it. But to be discarded, replaced and ignored when things are going well is agonizing. It reinforces my existing belief that I am not good enough. That what I am as a human being is not worth anything. It reinforces my worst fears that I am deserving of shame. This is a painful example of confirmation bias. But it's not reasonable or fair to yourself to interpret her actions as confirmation of the faulty notions which are imbedded in you. When you treated women in a shitty manner it was not a reflection of them. It was your own ignorance and lack of capacity. Your own unconscious behavior, unhealthy behavior, etc. Was it because they are unworthy beings? So don't get it twisted, it's not about you. And, you aren't a shitty person for it. You've made mistakes in ignorance and there isn't a person here on the planet that can't say the same if they are honest. Now you're on the other end of it and it hurts like a mother but still, don't get things twisted. Her behavior is not about you. I know that cognitively you can understand that, and emotionally your shame is triggered so it won't feel really real, or comforting. What I want to say is this- You have a responsibility to yourself to use reason and be fair, to yourself. That's one of the first things that any of us getting out of this mess have to do. We have to start to challenge the self talk, and listen to those around who challenge it. No more self reliance on the insecure part of yourself that says you aren't worthy. That doesn't work out well. At some point you have to be able to challenge that narrative. Please don't take this as me being unempathetic or hard on you. I have my own painful past, much of it not attachment related but I've come through some major challenges where I had to challenge what I thought I new, because the situation called for it and it meant the difference between getting through it or not getting through it. I get that thoughts can be unwelcome and automatic and seemingly hardwired. But your brain is plastic and your body is subject to helping or hurting influences... you owe it to yourself here to take advantage of those two facts. Do your best to suspend judgement on yourself until you have given yourself a reasonable chance. This journey you are embarking on is the beginning of that reasonable action- finding the right knowledgeable therapist, the right knowledgeable physician, the right support your mind and body needs. You may not have the clear answers about what exactly is going on with your neurotransmitters, but you do suspect that something is off, and are seeking medical answers for that. Many millions of people suffer depression or anxiety or adhd, or some sort of chemical imbalance, and they behave in ways that reflect that and they are not unworthy. So you are not alone and you are not unworthy and you deserve some support there. It's not about worth. Also, you have a fairly good idea that you are an insecure attacher, like approximately half the population. It has been established that while challenging, the process toward secure can be successful even for FA. So, you have a path forward there and deserve support for that. There are solutions to our worst problems, we just can't see them under such stress. But it's never about worth. You absolutely are worthy, of all the best this life has to offer. Like the rest of us, you won't be able to enjoy the best life has to offer without quite a process, which you have already begun. So please don't lose heart, and take my words with the warmth they are intended to convey. I'm just trying to say that the thoughts about being worthless and deserving shame are LIES. Negative thoughts and emotions and mind states that are convincing at the moment but can and will change with the right support. I really hope that I don't sound harsh because I don't feel harsh in how I'm trying to express myself. So take it as a "Hang in there buddy, you deserve all good things, and you can do this." I don't know how much that means coming across the 'net but my experiences have taught me there is always hope. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2021 4:36:45 GMT
krolle , I've had a bunch of comments but not enough time to make them. But remember that if you're getting discarded when something is going "well" it's because either the other person is too scared of something going well and only feels comfortable in a dysfunctional situation OR they are only attracted to chaos. So that should actually tell you that your instincts are right, things were going relatively well and you weren't imagining it, which is the opposite of shameful. Opening up the way you were practicing doing isn't bad or shameful, even if things didn't work out with the other person. You need to keep flexing that vulnerability and authenticity muscle so that you're available when you meet someone capable of receiving it. Until then, it's still a learning experience about what you're looking for and what red flags you should take note about. Then you keep trying until at some point you will stop kissing frogs and find someone who you can go a further distance with. Hopefully, over time, you do start to see a trend of your longer connections getting better and better even if they don't work. I kept dating insecure guys for a while even after I was secure, but I left the situations on my own volition faster and faster and was more and more open to more stable and serious men than in the past. I second this wholeheartedly. It's a process of identifying things as you go and then practice, practice, practice. You make progress, some feels like steps back and then your relationship landscape eventually changes to be unrecognizable from what it was before. Then it all makes sense. But you keep learning as you go- only in a much safer way. |
|
|
|
Post by krolle on Nov 4, 2021 16:08:47 GMT
Not ignoring the responses. Just a little preoccupied.
In exactly the same fashion as the last time this happened, (the relationship that got me into attachment styles in the 1st place).
I surprisingly got a text from Lady #1 today. Exactly the same time frame as the last relationship too, and almost the same wording.
Just a lack lustre attempt to free themselves of guilt.
"wish you well, had a good time, blah blah."
Basic interpretation...
"I dont want to take any responsibility for treating you like crap and acting selfish so I'm going to completely ignore everything you said and try come across as innocent by wishing you well."
The entire purpose of the message is to absolve herself of guilt with as minimal effort as possible. I feel insulted.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2021 17:50:55 GMT
Not ignoring the responses. Just a little preoccupied. In exactly the same fashion as the last time this happened, (the relationship that got me into attachment styles in the 1st place). I surprisingly got a text from Lady #1 today. Exactly the same time frame as the last relationship too, and almost the same wording. Just a lack lustre attempt to free themselves of guilt. "wish you well, had a good time, blah blah." Basic interpretation... "I dont want to take any responsibility for treating you like crap and acting selfish so I'm going to completely ignore everything you said and try come across as innocent by wishing you well." The entire purpose of the message is to absolve herself of guilt with as minimal effort as possible. I feel insulted. Weeellllllll, it's possible that things are quite different in her insecure head. I'm going to float an alternative narrative with you that may or may not have anything to do with reality. You interacted with her, so maybe you're onto something but in any case, the two of you have too much insecurity going on to be anything but messy. That's not a criticism! That's just the way it is with this kind of thing. Alternative narrative: She digs you, but is avoidant. She enters into casual sex with you for all the reasons people do. She wants a relationship but dismisses that outwardly and inwardly, and hope things will go ok and somehow without having to face vulnerability, it will just happen. Maybe she secretly thinks you are better at this whole thing than she is. You make no outward, assertive move with her to demonstrate your growing interest in "keeping her around". Instead, you respond to her requests for vulnerability with vulnerability, your testing the waters and so is she. But both of you have such a fear of intimacy and a lack of tools to relate in a healthy way. You see the relationship in a certain way in your head, as having potential. But it's a big stretch for you to go there. So you're timid, and unclear. But you're polite, kind, responsive because you want to perhaps cultivate something. She is liking you and liking how you guys are together. but she doesn't see you making any solid moves to progress from casual to a couple. Neither of you went in with clear stared intentions for a relationship, maybe, but we're hoping you could go at that sideways. So she starts as casual but doesn't want to stay casual and in this insecure twisted universe you're supposed to know that. Accidental love happens all the times in scripts. So- she roundabout tells you by revoking sex, saying that she's not comfortable having sex if you two aren't serious. Again, doesn't have to be vulnerable, and express her interests. She remains in control, hoping you'll take control. You ask if things would be different if so and so.... she says yes. So you guys talk about meeting to discuss. She ghosts as she feels more and more silly, andnit feels more and more risky...because after all, you never just came out and made her your girl. Her insecure prophecy is fulfilled, your insecure prophecy is fulfilled. She actually feels no guilt, she feels embarrassed and foolish. She's not a monster, she's insecure and doesn't want to take risks. She knows she went in casual and then tried to switch it around and it flipped and that's lame of her...but she's still looking for some kind of something. So you both are experiencing confirmation bias, hers from the avoidant side and yours from the anxious side. Avoidants reject before getting rejected. Avoidants don't believe anyone really wants them. Avoidants deal with attachment in a myriad of dysfunctional, hurtful ways just as AP and FA do, often without much empathy because they are thinking of protecting themselves from shame and pain,... not because they are cruel and malicious. All insecure styles act without much thought to the other because inside, they don't believe that they are safe. Anyway, it may or may not be the case and I don't even propose this to actually speculate and read her mind. I'm saying that the other side is rarely what it looks like from the outside, and I could see this being one of several possibilities and we will never know. If there is anything to learn from your side, including red flags in her and you both, then that's what is going to move you forward. What would you do differently? Really analyze that instead of trying to get in her head and put your own story there- you just don't know. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Nov 4, 2021 17:51:38 GMT
Not ignoring the responses. Just a little preoccupied. In exactly the same fashion as the last time this happened, (the relationship that got me into attachment styles in the 1st place). I surprisingly got a text from Lady #1 today. Exactly the same time frame as the last relationship too, and almost the same wording. Just a lack lustre attempt to free themselves of guilt. "wish you well, had a good time, blah blah." Basic interpretation... "I dont want to take any responsibility for treating you like crap and acting selfish so I'm going to completely ignore everything you said and try come across as innocent by wishing you well." The entire purpose of the message is to absolve herself of guilt with as minimal effort as possible. I feel insulted. So…building on a bit of what alexandra said above…instead of looking at your partners and seeing how they haven’t changed…can you take a look back at how you handled this go round versus what brought you here….put another way…look for your internal victories, not their external insecurities. Surely you have grown in awareness…you probably have gained some insight…those are victories. Only in movies do people make bold and dramatic 180 changes…most of us have to look for the 1 degree difference and celebrate it. I think if you turn your focus to the 1 degree change…it will start to counteract the incorrect assumption that you are not enough….because you are enough…your brain just needs some repetitive proof of that. |
|
|
|
Post by krolle on Nov 4, 2021 23:11:16 GMT
Do I respond to her?
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Nov 4, 2021 23:32:01 GMT
Why?
Not to be glib, actual question. Did it ask for a response? Or is it the FA push-pull pattern, time to kick the cycle back on now that she's had a breather and hasn't seen you in a while?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2021 23:35:32 GMT
I tell you what- how I got better, smarter, more authentic and willing to be me is I said what was on my mind, when given an opportunity. Or, when I chose to make the opportunity. I don't know if that's good advice for an anxious leaning person. So you have to do whatever you want, just be absolutely true to yourself no matter what you choose. This is no game so don't go in with an outcome in mind... but if you choose to respond, do it truthfully. And do it with a direct phone call no texting kid stuff. I hope that isn't terrible advice coming from a person with my background to a person of yours. Others might have better advice. My goal here wouldn't be to rectify anything but to open an honest convo to dispel some myths if they are present. And just be real. |
|
