nevad
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Post by nevad on Oct 4, 2021 21:55:59 GMT
I am an AP with I think a small side of secure attachment. I broke up with my ex FA (possible narcissistic traits as well) because of shenanigans after 7 months - mind you were are in our mid 50s, so this isn’t isolated to the younger crowd. It was also an LDR - 90 miles away. Love bombing and idealization, devalue and then a discard. It's textbook and uncanny. She would never just break up with me always telling me it wasn't me, it was her and a state of "overwhelm" that she had never experienced in her life. But that she loved me and had never said that to anyone before me and wanted to remain friends. Meanwhile, she put me in a gray zone as we saw each other less and less over about a month period and I kept questioning, but she said she just needed space. So I gave it to her while still communicating via text and the occasional phone call.
Then she went out with her girlfriends a couple of times and rather blatantly revealed to me that she was accepting drinks and talking to other men - while we were in what she called a "semi-relationship". I didn't know that that was and wanted no part of it. Once she told me that I called her and ended it on the spot (it was 1:00 am and she had just gotten in from the bars) with no contact. I wasn't going to stand on the sidelines as her backup. She didn't get it and couldn't understand why we could not remain friends. I told her my heart would never truly heal and I would just be back in that gray zone.
A few days later she reached out to me on the last day of her job (she was moving on from her old job too) saying she felt lighter and was more "herself". Kind of made me feel like crap honestly because I was very much in love with her and helped her through that transition. But it was like nothing ever happened between us - she was happy - and I miserable. When I replied I was happy for her and good luck her response was "Babe, why are you being so cold". Yes, she called me "babe" which to me is a term of endearment for someone you are dating, not broken up with. Very confusing for me, not for her I guess. Again, I reiterated no contact and she said "Lovers or zip?" to which I replied I had to again for my hear to heal and move on.
A couple of weeks passed and we had contact again because I reached out to say Happy Birthday, (a mistake in retrospect) which caused a texting barrage of what happened to the relationship and maybe some more bitter feelings. She had asked me what was going on in therapy (because I had returned because of this) and what a professional thought about demise of our relationship. I didn't volunteer any information as I was really not there yet and I thought it was intrusive.
Three days later she reached out again and asked if I was on the dating apps. I was not but, she didn't believe me because I thought it was again intrusive - we were broken up - and I refused to answer. When I asked if she was dating she replied with a rather grandiose "Yep" and it seemed like with several men over about 2-1/2 weeks after the break up. Honestly, it stung but I wasn't that surprised. She got on me about not revealing if I was on the apps again because she thought an answer was due to her. Honestly, I had begun polishing my profile but had not reached out to anyone, but wasn't and still am not really into the concept of dating yet. I'm reeling from this one and could not be authentic on a date with someone else. What I couldn’t get was her rationalization that she was dating casually and that was OK, but if I was on the apps it was different. Very incongruent.
Even though I did the final break, I was still very much in love with her and felt betrayed and could not understand why she would not just come clean beforehand without seeking the attention of other men. Let's face it, my AP side got to me and I chased her and pushed her away even more. But she would never tell me that. She only gave me this - that if I insisted on no contact, then it would be no contact forever. No exceptions - she would never reach out again. In her words we were done - "Finito" as she put it. If there was a chance for a "to be continued" I was cinching that. But she would never reach out again. Mostly everyone says she did me a favor.
I have reverted to AP during the whole aftermath with the rumination about the relationship every day, trying to understand what the hell just happened. Therapy is helping me understand it. A part of me yearns for those good times together - which were always great. It was the in between that got really hard and confusing. Everyone is telling me I dodged a bullet, but I still want for the relationship until I get through all the stages and my heart truly moves on. It's a minute-by-minute, day-by-day process until you finally see clearly again. I would rather have heard my feelings for you changed instead of I will be in love with you forever and miss you terribly. That actually hurts more.
I will get there through therapy and although a piece of me for some reason still yearns for the relationship, I know through common sense and forums like this it would more than likely wind up the same or worse. She was beautiful and kind and everything was great in the initial phase. Our attachment styles did not mesh and put us on ice forever. It’s actually kind of sad that this is the state of the human condition when it comes to attachment and bonding.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 5:20:55 GMT
I'm sorry you're going through this. Breakups are hard. It's good you're getting therapy to help you through it, and hopefully to move beyond it with some healthy dating/relationship skills and perspectives. This kind of thing is a mish-mash of emotional unavailability and insecurity on both sides, and as you say these things don't have an age limit. They only respond to awareness and effort, not just time.
I'm 50+ and working toward secure attachment, it's never too late. I hope others come along with more specific/targeted advice for AP.. I come from the avoidant side. Either way, it's all attachment insecurity that can be worked with and improved, so keep going. Best of luck!
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Post by anne12 on Oct 5, 2021 6:18:20 GMT
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nevad
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Post by nevad on Oct 5, 2021 19:50:45 GMT
I'm sorry you're going through this. Breakups are hard. It's good you're getting therapy to help you through it, and hopefully to move beyond it with some healthy dating/relationship skills and perspectives. This kind of thing is a mish-mash of emotional unavailability and insecurity on both sides, and as you say these things don't have an age limit. They only respond to awareness and effort, not just time. I'm 50+ and working toward secure attachment, it's never too late. I hope others come along with more specific/targeted advice for AP.. I come from the avoidant side. Either way, it's all attachment insecurity that can be worked with and improved, so keep going. Best of luck! Thank you for your reply. It is helpful to hear from others. I'm curious as to what you think about her response here: "She only gave me this - that if I insisted on no contact, then it would be no contact forever. No exceptions - she would never reach out again. In her words we were done - "Finito" as she put it. If there was a chance for a "to be continued" I was cinching that. But she would never reach out again." This seems to be blatantly incongruent to her seemingly want/need to remain friends. When I asked her why she wanted to remain friends she said to "maintain a connection" with the potential that we might get together in the future when our lives lined up better logistically - that we had something and should two people who cared for each other never be in touch with each other again. But when I did put up the no contact boundary, she then declared "no contact" forever after I still insisted on NC. Is this just immature game playing - does the avoidant side not understand the need for the heart to heal and move on through no contact? Or does she really see a future, but just not right now? My whole being says she would just use me for emotional supply and find someone else in the meantime, thus my need for no contact. I know if I stayed in contact it would just be me holding on to hope. My secure side says she never really loved me and move on, while the anxious side wants to hold on - which I know would be unhealthy for me, especially as she is already dating other guys. She says she is dating for "friendship" and a dinner here or there and they mean NOTHING (yes she said it in caps), but again that seems like an unusually manipulative statement to me. |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 6, 2021 1:08:42 GMT
nevad , this is a situation where she is acting out of self-preservation. A lot of FAs can't commit (because it feels like being smothered and stokes engulfment fears) and so want to keep the door open but maybe without a label or maybe dating others. This allows someone to have their cake and eat it too, but it also may keep fears of both intimacy and abandonment at bay. When you have one foot in and one foot out, if someone else "leaves" you then you can pretend and rationalize in a lot of ways that don't seem like rejection (well, I wasn't committed anyway, I knew it was never going to work, it wasn't the right person, blah blah blah). If you end it, you go no contact, even though it is because you need space, all she hears is REJECTION. And she can't deal with rejection. So she needs to reject you first. People with insecure attachment styles tend to have a lot of difficulty with gray areas (ironic, since many are so non-committal and not having labels means everything is gray!). But they can be very all or nothing about we need to be connected (or disconnected) right NOW, if I make a decision I can't sit with ambiguity because it's scary so I will assume my decision is FOREVER and nothing will ever change in the future. These are all related to issues with control, and wanting to have control. Most insecure attachers also don't feel in enough control of their own lives, so try to control everything they can, even though it's usually an illusion since no one can control anything besides themselves. This ultimately all doesn't matter, beyond being helpful to understand and perhaps is good for you to introspect on for yourself and your own insecure attachment patterns. What ultimately matters in regards to this specific relationship and connection is that you have seen you cannot have a healthy or stable connection with her right now that fulfills both your needs. She is inconsistent (another key attribute of someone emotionally unavailable). It's impossible because she will always make it a power struggle instead of working with you as a team. You already know that you need space, and she has shown she can't handle your need for distance without shutting down. If you don't take the space you need, she will keep seeing other people even if you are uncomfortable with it. She is (probably not consciously) creating a situation in which you can't win, and it's probably deeply rooted in her being FA -- having a disorganized style, not knowing how to meet her own needs and simply being reactive. I will say, in regards to "My secure side says she never really loved me and move on" -- this is actually not secure. Yes, moving on is secure, by why does this all have to mean she never really loved you? Can't it just be she has limited capacity to love in the way you need so it's not a good match? She probably did the best she could, but she hasn't dealt with her issues and she doesn't know how to have a healthy relationship. You hit her limit, as just about anyone would, since the issue is on her side. It isn't really about you. Secure is accepting the situation and letting go with love and respect. You still need to put your own needs first since turning to her to meet them will keep you in your own personal hellish limbo. This is all very painful, believe me I know. I am earned secure but was AP most of my life and had substantial relationships with FAs (and also with DAs) that went classically very badly. Textbook anxious-avoidant trap dancing disasters. I hope some of what I'm saying is clarifying, and I would recommend that you stick to your instinct here and go no contact and take care of yourself. She will keep you stuck, because she will stay stuck in her FA circle. You are aware of attachment theory, aware that you have issues, are asking questions to help yourself find healthier relationships. I think standing up for yourself and cutting it off in the first place, even if it's not totally no contact yet, is a huge step (when I was AP, this was impossible for me, and my first major step towards secure was going no contact for almost a year with an FA now ex). Therapy is very helpful as well, so that's two huge steps to get through this 
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Post by annieb on Oct 6, 2021 2:00:27 GMT
I am so very sorry you're experiencing this. This is as bad as it gets. BUT you are doing a lot of very good things for yourself, like a secure would, and I think you should feel very good about that. For example, your boundary of her accepting drinks from other men, caused you to be immediately turned off and to break up. I think you almost surprised yourself how fast that happened. And while you probably had regrets soon after, you still acted in your interests. Next time you will probably be a little bit less heisty just in the execution, but not in feelings.
Her prying about your therapy or your dating app status is definitely an FA move. She is simultaneously justifying her behavior, while using your "bad" behavior as a vernacular for her low esteem. Being FA, this is as bad as it gets.
Presumably if you wanted to get back together, you probably could with some well timed grand gestures. But for as long as she is like this (no therapy or growth), the relationship will always be this cyclic push and pull sequence.
I guarantee you that if you stay in it and your grow in your therapy like you have been, and she doesn't, at a certain point 6 months from now you will no longer be compatible anyway.
This is a sad state of affairs for the human condition, but we are all struggling to heal our traumas, so that we can show up for others without toxicity. And if one day we succeed then that's pretty great for the current affairs. Thanks for writing and sharing and best of luck to you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 2:56:46 GMT
I'm sorry you're going through this. Breakups are hard. It's good you're getting therapy to help you through it, and hopefully to move beyond it with some healthy dating/relationship skills and perspectives. This kind of thing is a mish-mash of emotional unavailability and insecurity on both sides, and as you say these things don't have an age limit. They only respond to awareness and effort, not just time. I'm 50+ and working toward secure attachment, it's never too late. I hope others come along with more specific/targeted advice for AP.. I come from the avoidant side. Either way, it's all attachment insecurity that can be worked with and improved, so keep going. Best of luck! Thank you for your reply. It is helpful to hear from others. I'm curious as to what you think about her response here: "She only gave me this - that if I insisted on no contact, then it would be no contact forever. No exceptions - she would never reach out again. In her words we were done - "Finito" as she put it. If there was a chance for a "to be continued" I was cinching that. But she would never reach out again." This seems to be blatantly incongruent to her seemingly want/need to remain friends. When I asked her why she wanted to remain friends she said to "maintain a connection" with the potential that we might get together in the future when our lives lined up better logistically - that we had something and should two people who cared for each other never be in touch with each other again. But when I did put up the no contact boundary, she then declared "no contact" forever after I still insisted on NC. Is this just immature game playing - does the avoidant side not understand the need for the heart to heal and move on through no contact? Or does she really see a future, but just not right now? My whole being says she would just use me for emotional supply and find someone else in the meantime, thus my need for no contact. I know if I stayed in contact it would just be me holding on to hope. My secure side says she never really loved me and move on, while the anxious side wants to hold on - which I know would be unhealthy for me, especially as she is already dating other guys. She says she is dating for "friendship" and a dinner here or there and they mean NOTHING (yes she said it in caps), but again that seems like an unusually manipulative statement to me. If you're asking me specifically, what I think of this... I think it's immature nonsense. I find the "not now, maybe later" approach to breakups and keeping in touch to be total bullsheet. It seems about ego and manipulation and selfish intentions. My advice is block and delete this kind of dynamic from your life, and don't hang on one moment because what you will get later is no different from what you've gotten so far, which is .... a totally hurtful and disrespectful situation. Don't put up with this. Others may disagree, i'm not one to "stay friends" with exes or keep a door open. What's done is done and it didn't work, let's move on. Work on your own personal issues and keep moving forward. Over time with the right support you will find healthier relationships. |
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nevad
New Member
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Post by nevad on Oct 6, 2021 12:52:21 GMT
nevad , this is a situation where she is acting out of self-preservation. A lot of FAs can't commit (because it feels like being smothered and stokes engulfment fears) and so want to keep the door open but maybe without a label or maybe dating others. This allows someone to have their cake and eat it too, but it also may keep fears of both intimacy and abandonment at bay. When you have one foot in and one foot out, if someone else "leaves" you then you can pretend and rationalize in a lot of ways that don't seem like rejection (well, I wasn't committed anyway, I knew it was never going to work, it wasn't the right person, blah blah blah). If you end it, you go no contact, even though it is because you need space, all she hears is REJECTION. And she can't deal with rejection. So she needs to reject you first. People with insecure attachment styles tend to have a lot of difficulty with gray areas (ironic, since many are so non-committal and not having labels means everything is gray!). But they can be very all or nothing about we need to be connected (or disconnected) right NOW, if I make a decision I can't sit with ambiguity because it's scary so I will assume my decision is FOREVER and nothing will ever change in the future. These are all related to issues with control, and wanting to have control. Most insecure attachers also don't feel in enough control of their own lives, so try to control everything they can, even though it's usually an illusion since no one can control anything besides themselves. This ultimately all doesn't matter, beyond being helpful to understand and perhaps is good for you to introspect on for yourself and your own insecure attachment patterns. What ultimately matters in regards to this specific relationship and connection is that you have seen you cannot have a healthy or stable connection with her right now that fulfills both your needs. She is inconsistent (another key attribute of someone emotionally unavailable). It's impossible because she will always make it a power struggle instead of working with you as a team. You already know that you need space, and she has shown she can't handle your need for distance without shutting down. If you don't take the space you need, she will keep seeing other people even if you are uncomfortable with it. She is (probably not consciously) creating a situation in which you can't win, and it's probably deeply rooted in her being FA -- having a disorganized style, not knowing how to meet her own needs and simply being reactive. I will say, in regards to "My secure side says she never really loved me and move on" -- this is actually not secure. Yes, moving on is secure, by why does this all have to mean she never really loved you? Can't it just be she has limited capacity to love in the way you need so it's not a good match? She probably did the best she could, but she hasn't dealt with her issues and she doesn't know how to have a healthy relationship. You hit her limit, as just about anyone would, since the issue is on her side. It isn't really about you. Secure is accepting the situation and letting go with love and respect. You still need to put your own needs first since turning to her to meet them will keep you in your own personal hellish limbo. This is all very painful, believe me I know. I am earned secure but was AP most of my life and had substantial relationships with FAs (and also with DAs) that went classically very badly. Textbook anxious-avoidant trap dancing disasters. I hope some of what I'm saying is clarifying, and I would recommend that you stick to your instinct here and go no contact and take care of yourself. She will keep you stuck, because she will stay stuck in her FA circle. You are aware of attachment theory, aware that you have issues, are asking questions to help yourself find healthier relationships. I think standing up for yourself and cutting it off in the first place, even if it's not totally no contact yet, is a huge step (when I was AP, this was impossible for me, and my first major step towards secure was going no contact for almost a year with an FA now ex). Therapy is very helpful as well, so that's two huge steps to get through this Thank you Alexandra. Your response really helped me to understand the dynamic further. And I appreciate your assessment on my "secure side" comment. She was very adamant that she loved me and that nobody had ever made her feel the way I did. That is I suppose what hurt the most and perhaps that based on her FA qualities is what caused her to pull away - that and then my neediness to pursue when what she really wanted was space. I wound up giving her the space, but I took that personally and she could never understand that. Honestly, I felt like she was being disingenuous about why she needed it. However, I feel now that she did love me, but unless she decided to do the work necessary then there was never be a chance for us. I don't see that happening ever, but especially with her no contact edict and my rejection in her eyes when I broke up with her. She is extremely attractive, magnetic with a great outward personality and that magnetism gets her plenty of attention out in the world - whether she is in a bar or a supermarket. And she seems to thrive on that attention, which was kind of hurtful to me as well when she would often bring up past relationships in detail (which I asked her to stop doing because it bothered me). What I am holding onto is what could've been if she didn't have this specific attachment style and/or could work through our trauma together. She was in a bad marriage for 30 years to a narcissist who cheated on her incessantly, so thus there are serious trust issues as well. She tested me constantly and even made up scenarios where she would ruminate that I was cheating which was very, very confusing to me. I was married 29 years and 100% faithful to my wife, who passed away suddenly from a deadly cancer almost three years ago. She had issues with that as well - even though I had done the work to really mourn and grieve and finally get to acceptance of her death. I don't say this to put myself on a pedestal because I know my anxious side is part of the dynamic here - only that I was in hope that because we were emotionally connected (her words, not mine) that we could overcome the obstacles and be committed to making it work. Now I know this not possible for her with me specifically, although she seems to have had a ton of relationships in the past 2-1/2 years. She told me ours was the longest (7 months). What I want in a hopeful partner is as much peace and happiness as we can muster and a willingness to be there for each other in the ebb and flow of a long-term relationship. I had that in my marriage, despite some very difficult times and there was always a willingness to work through it on both ends, so this is not foreign to me. Being relatively new and older in the dating world after a long marriage and that loss, the idea of attachment styles only entered my world after this relationship after much self-reflection and soul searching as to my part in it. Again, I really appreciate your feedback. It is truly helping me understand, grieve this relationship and move on. |
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 1, 2021 17:51:39 GMT
I know my anxious side is part of the dynamic here - only that I was in hope that because we were emotionally connected (her words, not mine) that we could overcome the obstacles and be committed to making it work. Now I know this not possible for her with me specifically, although she seems to have had a ton of relationships in the past 2-1/2 years. She told me ours was the longest (7 months).
I am late coming here…..but I was in this position with the last guy I dated. What I have discovered is length of relationship does not necessarily equate to security…..I was also the longest relationship he ever had and for some reason, this was important to me. What should have been more important was the fact that he had a history of short term relationships. That should have been a red flag that he was either choosing short term relationships or there was a level of insecurity that was preventing the relationship from progressing. I also am not a fan of friendship post breakup. I tried that with B and all it did was prolong the time I needed to move on. I do hope that you received the feedback you needed.
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nevad
New Member
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Post by nevad on Nov 1, 2021 18:41:03 GMT
I am late coming here…..but I was in this position with the last guy I dated. What I have discovered is length of relationship does not necessarily equate to security…..I was also the longest relationship he ever had and for some reason, this was important to me. What should have been more important was the fact that he had a history of short term relationships. That should have been a red flag that he was either choosing short term relationships or there was a level of insecurity that was preventing the relationship from progressing. I also am not a fan of friendship post breakup. I tried that with B and all it did was prolong the time I needed to move on. I do hope that you received the feedback you needed. Thanks tnr9 for your reply and input. It was her who cited the length of the relationship and that seemed significant to her, but not enough to continue. It was almost progress for her. She said she learned a lot from me, which honestly kind of hurt in the sense that some other guy she will date will benefit. I feel she definitely was pushing away intimacy and/or pulling away because the anxious side in me was chasing not wanting it to slip away. I still have trouble accepting that you can just turn the keys off to love (she said she loved me like no other) but that is my cross to bear. I know love alone cannot sustain a relationship - no matter how much you are willing to do to keep it. Since my original post, I feel I am getting to the point of moving forward, although it has been tough to let go. |
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 1, 2021 19:21:34 GMT
I am late coming here…..but I was in this position with the last guy I dated. What I have discovered is length of relationship does not necessarily equate to security…..I was also the longest relationship he ever had and for some reason, this was important to me. What should have been more important was the fact that he had a history of short term relationships. That should have been a red flag that he was either choosing short term relationships or there was a level of insecurity that was preventing the relationship from progressing. I also am not a fan of friendship post breakup. I tried that with B and all it did was prolong the time I needed to move on. I do hope that you received the feedback you needed. Thanks tnr9 for your reply and input. It was her who cited the length of the relationship and that seemed significant to her, but not enough to continue. It was almost progress for her. She said she learned a lot from me, which honestly kind of hurt in the sense that some other guy she will date will benefit. I feel she definitely was pushing away intimacy and/or pulling away because the anxious side in me was chasing not wanting it to slip away. I still have trouble accepting that you can just turn the keys off to love (she said she loved me like no other) but that is my cross to bear. I know love alone cannot sustain a relationship - no matter how much you are willing to do to keep it. Since my original post, I feel I am getting to the point of moving forward, although it has been tough to let go. Another lesson for me was the notion that the next person gets to benefit from lessons of the previous one….it is one thing to say that, it is quite a different one to put it into practice….and to keep that going if there is no self work done…..that is the most important thing to make forward progress…go inward. But a lot of people with insecure attachment will put work towards fixing external things….and external adjustments usually do not work without internal work also occurring. As a visual…and a bit of a different direction…but same idea. Say someone sat on a tack….they do a bunch of things to control how uncomfortable the tack is…buy softer cushions, use pain meds…but if they do nothing to actually address the source (the tack)…it will always be there. A person who has insecure attachment issues and isn’t actively working on those issues is likely to end up with another insecure partner. But honestly….considering her next partner is a form of distraction from looking at your own self….from determining what steps you want to take to be a healthier person for your next relationship. |
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