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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 15:17:33 GMT
This is a question for DAs. The more I learn from my secure partner, the more I question my past relationships with APs. I see over and over on this board and in my past, that it is viewed that DAs "pick fights" over insignificant things as a distancing strategy. In relationships with APs, if I would say I didn't like something they did or had an issue with, it would be waived away as not important, insignificant or that I was just plain wrong. The main issues would be them needing constant texting/calls, always needing to know what I was doing or where I was going, not liking me going out with friends without them, saying very hurtful things, having emotional outbursts etc. Their reasoning was I was wrong, because this is what people do to be in a relationship and they are only doing what is right for the relationship and I was just looking for an "out".
The need for space came along in large part, because my grievances were dismissed, due to an APs need for more and more attention.
The longer I am in a relationship with a secure, the more I realize that perhaps I wasn't wrong and I wasn't just picking fights, that I just didn't like certain things that were going on. My current partner doesn't get upset if I don't text back right away, because he says he's aware I have a demanding job, and things to do. He's happy that I have friends that I like to go out with and if I need alone time, it's fine with him. The more I learn that I can talk things over and he will address my concerns, the less space I need.
I guess my question is, is it possible that what DAs see as being important issues, the AP does not see as important at all? and could this contribute to the perspective of the AP that the DA is just picking fights over nothing? Have other DAs had this experience?
I know not many DAs post on here, so I appreciate any responses. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 15:34:58 GMT
That's an interesting point.
I think it's a case of an initial mismatch which becomes magnified over time with each side feeling the other is wrong - or making the other wrong for their needs and thus either upping the need for reassurance in the case of the ap or increasing the need for space in the case of the da/fa.
There's a tendency to classify anyone who's not giving us what we want as wrong and I think that's counterproductive and leads to resentment and misery - if we could only get rid of the emotional baggage that we all carry, maybe it would be possible to converse with partners on a level that meant we could be honest and quit needing to actually get anything out of our relationships.
Conflict is so often related to the triggering of personal issues, past hurts, attachment issues, trauma or internalised pain and anger which - this is a personal view - I believe that if all of us were able to address these things to at least some extent before getting into a relationship, we would not require the relationship to fulfill us - and when we were triggered as is bound to happen, we might be able to recognise our own reaction for what it is rather than either store it inside or attach meaning to it and go off the rails in whatever direction is habitual for us - ie by blaming, becoming anxious or in my case by withdrawing.
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Post by yasmin on Dec 13, 2017 17:25:54 GMT
The difference for me was timing and phrasing.
So for example if someone didn't like something I did, I'd expect for them to tell me in a nicer tone - like a way that didn't sound too harsh or too mean. Second of all I'd expect them to pick their moment. With the FA I dated, the "picking of fights" differed from my normal experience of someone having a conversation with me because I felt attacked at a totally bizarre moment.
The difference is the way it felt and I think that was because of the intention and timing.
Normal fights felt more like, "I have this issue, can we talk about it and my end goal of the conversation is to work things out. FA fights felt more like "there is something wrong with you, I don't like you that much, I want you to go away". So the reason that was harder was because you're trying to work out in your head why this person is basically trying to make you upset (that was definitely how it felt).
Also, the criticisms were never things like "I don't like it when you do x, y z", which is more of a constructive comment. With him it was more like character assassination without any backup that was often contradictory. It felt a lot like he was persuading himself that he didn't like me, and doing it out loud.
It's a strange thing to experience someone chasing after you, telling you how great you are and how much they like you and then asking you to go on a date or a fun trip and half way through it starting to tell you all the reasons they don't like you and you're not good enough.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 13, 2017 20:41:26 GMT
I agree with Yasmin about timing and phrasing. One day...out of the blue...my ex said "You're needy". It did not feel like an open ended topic that we could discuss but felt more like a statement of a character deficit. My reaction, in a jokey way was to point out something about him that wasn't tied to his character. The topic was not discussed again but I wish we could have had an open dialogue about it. Another example was a time when he said "Since we are seeing each other more often we don't have to be so touchy". ( I love physical affection...it is my love language) and again it was stated in a matter of fact way...as if there was no option to discuss it. I again let it drop, but it did hurt a bit. I realize (in hindsight) that he was expressing a boundary for him...but the way it was conveyed made me feel like he wasn't taking me into consideration at all. I am not saying his boundaries/needs were unimportant...it is just that it could have been conveyed in a more understanding and compassionate way.
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Post by yasmin on Dec 13, 2017 21:28:58 GMT
The last fight my FA picked with me was because I wasn't needy ENOUGH. He got pretty upset saying I confused him because I didn't have emotional outburts or chase after him if he disappeared and to him this was totally new territory. He said I was a "headf**k" and made him feel out of control, insecure and confused. The irony of that statement!!! He behaves badly and I am the one in the wrong because I DON'T go crazy at him? I said to him "it's not that I don't care or feel hurt by it, I do, it's just that if someone behaves badly that's their issue, not mine".
I don't think he could actually handle my relative security. He did make me feel anxious a lot of times, but I never communicated or showed it because I felt like it was rewarding his push-away behavior. If he ignored me, I ignored him right back. If he disappeared, I let him disappear. If he came back I acted like nothing happenned but it took him a long time to get close again. Not because I knew he was avoidant but because I thought it meant he didn't like me anymore /as much and if that was the case...why chase?! Let the guy go and find one that does like you.
I didn't start to get anxious until he kept coming back and I couldn't work out psychologically why anyone would extend that much effort on trying to be around me, only to get the opportunity and completely screw it up every single time. I think he picked a fight with me to get an emotional outburst out of me (which he did but it took a year of push-pull for him to achieve it).
My point is that if I had been anxious with him and chased, put emotional demands on him or done any anxious behaviours he would have pushed me away and disappeared on me. If I was secure (like I was) he would STILL have done those same behaviours. The behavior was about him and his need to not get too close to me. I don't think it was about anything I did or didn't do. But then I think this particular guy is extremely avoidant compared to a lot of people commenting here who describe having relationships and friendships. He doesn't do ANY of that at all - so I think he's a particularly strong case.
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cate
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Post by cate on Dec 13, 2017 21:46:40 GMT
I agree.
It’s about how the DA communicated their needs. There was a dissonance and in my case a seemingly self absorbed nalmost narcissistic bent to it
For instance - my ex had no issue with canceling plans with me at the last minute. When I got upset and stated that my time was equally valuable and making plans with him meant I moved things around - he stated bluntly he would no longer make plans until he was 100 percent sure he wouldn’t cancel. To me that read as a ‘pubishment’ - that’s what I get for challenging him. It also shut down any further communication which is not a healthy way of sustaining a relationship.
Or he’d plan a long trip overseas and just tell me he was going. No discussion. That again does not promote open communication. He also had plans to relocate and when I wanted to discuss the implications of that on ya - he told me he didn’t like discussing his plans with anyone and he was trying not to resent me for making him do that.
In all of these cases - he was certainly conveying his boundaries but he was doing it in a way that was harmful to the relationship overall. By shutting down communication. By ignoring my feelings and needs. By treating me as ja bystander in the relationship as he would make the decisions and I had to deal. I got no say.
I think the differing communication style between DA and AP is so different at times that it really does lead to conflict. And as others pointed out - in the pull phase - my ex was capable of communicating well. He was capable of being supportive and kind and open. So when he did things like the above I couldn’t help but think he was deliberately being ‘mean’ or a ‘jerk’. Especially in the moment because few of us are able to step out of the moment and say ‘I wonder what’s really going on here’
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 22:18:42 GMT
I agree. It’s about how the DA communicated their needs. There was a dissonance and in my case a seemingly self absorbed nalmost narcissistic bent to it For instance - my ex had no issue with canceling plans with me at the last minute. When I got upset and stated that my time was equally valuable and making plans with him meant I moved things around - he stated bluntly he would no longer make plans until he was 100 percent sure he wouldn’t cancel. To me that read as a ‘pubishment’ - that’s what I get for challenging him. It also shut down any further communication which is not a healthy way of sustaining a relationship. Or he’d plan a long trip overseas and just tell me he was going. No discussion. That again does not promote open communication. He also had plans to relocate and when I wanted to discuss the implications of that on ya - he told me he didn’t like discussing his plans with anyone and he was trying not to resent me for making him do that. In all of these cases - he was certainly conveying his boundaries but he was doing it in a way that was harmful to the relationship overall. By shutting down communication. By ignoring my feelings and needs. By treating me as ja bystander in the relationship as he would make the decisions and I had to deal. I got no say. I think the differing communication style between DA and AP is so different at times that it really does lead to conflict. And as others pointed out - in the pull phase - my ex was capable of communicating well. He was capable of being supportive and kind and open. So when he did things like the above I couldn’t help but think he was deliberately being ‘mean’ or a ‘jerk’. Especially in the moment because few of us are able to step out of the moment and say ‘I wonder what’s really going on here’ I suspect that both DA and AP ie both sides of the relationship feel they re in the right alot of the time - whilst everyone who's posted above felt that their partner was behaving unreasonably, the partner, I suspect was living in an alternative reality and therefore felt justified in their behaviour. Differing boundaries, attempts to communicate that are perceived and criticism, we are all looking at life through our own lenses and being convinced of our own rightness we necessarily make the other person wrong. No criticism intended here - I know very well how difficult it is to be with someone who's severely avoidant. It's easy to label the avoidant as wrong when infact they are living in a different reality - maybe one that's not compatible with an AP - maybe not compatible with relationship full stop. It can be very very hurtful - and hurt leads to feelings of anger and resentment. Many people here - myself included, felt we were the perfect partner - compassionate, available etc and ended up feeling resentful about our partners inability to give. But the kind of unconditional love we felt we offered was actually not that at all - it was dependent on our partner giving us what we needed and if this didn't happen alot of us, rather than setting boundaries, carried on regardless and accepted the unacceptable and then blamed their partner which escalated the conflict and led to more of the same. |
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Post by Jaeger on Dec 13, 2017 22:31:52 GMT
I agree. It’s about how the DA communicated their needs. There was a dissonance and in my case a seemingly self absorbed nalmost narcissistic bent to it For instance - my ex had no issue with canceling plans with me at the last minute. When I got upset and stated that my time was equally valuable and making plans with him meant I moved things around - he stated bluntly he would no longer make plans until he was 100 percent sure he wouldn’t cancel. To me that read as a ‘pubishment’ - that’s what I get for challenging him. It also shut down any further communication which is not a healthy way of sustaining a relationship. Or he’d plan a long trip overseas and just tell me he was going. No discussion. That again does not promote open communication. He also had plans to relocate and when I wanted to discuss the implications of that on ya - he told me he didn’t like discussing his plans with anyone and he was trying not to resent me for making him do that. In all of these cases - he was certainly conveying his boundaries but he was doing it in a way that was harmful to the relationship overall. By shutting down communication. By ignoring my feelings and needs. By treating me as ja bystander in the relationship as he would make the decisions and I had to deal. I got no say. I think the differing communication style between DA and AP is so different at times that it really does lead to conflict. And as others pointed out - in the pull phase - my ex was capable of communicating well. He was capable of being supportive and kind and open. So when he did things like the above I couldn’t help but think he was deliberately being ‘mean’ or a ‘jerk’. Especially in the moment because few of us are able to step out of the moment and say ‘I wonder what’s really going on here’ I suspect that both DA and AP ie both sides of the relationship feel they re in the right alot of the time - whilst everyone who's posted above felt that their partner was behaving unreasonably, the partner, I suspect was living in an alternative reality and therefore felt justified in their behaviour. Differing boundaries, attempts to communicate that are perceived and criticism, we are all looking at life through our own lenses and being convinced of our own rightness we necessarily make the other person wrong. No criticism intended here - I know very well how difficult it is to be with someone who's severely avoidant. It's easy to label the avoidant as wrong when infact they are living in a different reality - maybe one that's not compatible with an AP - maybe not compatible with relationship full stop. It can be very very hurtful - and hurt leads to feelings of anger and resentment. Many people here - myself included, felt we were the perfect partner - compassionate, available etc and ended up feeling resentful about our partners inability to give. But the kind of unconditional love we felt we offered was actually not that at all - it was dependent on our partner giving us what we needed and if this didn't happen alot of us, rather than setting boundaries, carried on regardless and accepted the unacceptable and then blamed their partner which escalated the conflict and led to more of the same. I agree with you and think that right and wrong are not helpful terms to throw around since they're subjective and related to your goals for a relationship . Both parts of a relationship are looking for a way to feel happy and content. The conflict usually begins when the factors that bring happiness and contentment for one half don't match or even clash with those of the other half. I don't blame my ex for anything, but either the needs or how we need those needs to be fulfilled for each of us to be happy differ too much to be sufficiently compatible. The only way to make them compatible is through major adjustment on both sides. From that point on, it's up to everyone to decide for themselves if such adjustment is likely, given yourself and your partner and whether or not it's worth it for the (to my mind limited) progress it can bring. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 22:42:59 GMT
Exactly Jaeger - you nailed what I was trying, somewhat inelegantly, to say.
Blame and anger are understandable, but not very productive. These kinds of relationships seem to be extreme examples of what would effectively be normal in any relationship - we ought to expect to be triggered at some point by our partner when things start to get real - and the test of maturity comes in a couples ability to weather these storms together - neither AP or Da/FA are gifted in this direction.....
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Post by Jaeger on Dec 13, 2017 22:48:40 GMT
But the kind of unconditional love we felt we offered was actually not that at all - it was dependent on our partner giving us what we needed and if this didn't happen alot of us, rather than setting boundaries, carried on regardless and accepted the unacceptable and then blamed their partner which escalated the conflict and led to more of the same. This triggered me into a thought.. Or rather, a question. Since, being a father, I think of the love for one's children is a separate case, my question is this: How do you (and others, ofcourse, feel free to join in) view romantic love being 'unconditional'? And do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? |
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cate
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Post by cate on Dec 13, 2017 23:48:21 GMT
Yes - I wasn’t intending it as criticism of a DA. Just to show how incompatible the styles were and I could only see and understand it after walking away
I don’t believe in unconditional love. We love our children but don’t we have expectations and thus conditions on that? I also did not give my ex unconditional love because relationships are supposed to be a 2 way street. Not an equal street. Sometimes someone gives 70 percent. Sometimes someone gives 30.
I believe that love is a choice. It’s wakig up every day and looking at the person next to you and making a choice to be there in every way. The good. The bad. The ugly. And both people have to make this choice or it doesn’t work. And yes - this is true of the parent and child relationship too. I’ve worked with foster kids to know that all too often parents do not choose to love their children. And frankly - aren’t many of us here because our parents didn’t quite choose to love us either at all or enough?
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 13, 2017 23:57:24 GMT
I agree. It’s about how the DA communicated their needs. There was a dissonance and in my case a seemingly self absorbed nalmost narcissistic bent to it For instance - my ex had no issue with canceling plans with me at the last minute. When I got upset and stated that my time was equally valuable and making plans with him meant I moved things around - he stated bluntly he would no longer make plans until he was 100 percent sure he wouldn’t cancel. To me that read as a ‘pubishment’ - that’s what I get for challenging him. It also shut down any further communication which is not a healthy way of sustaining a relationship. Or he’d plan a long trip overseas and just tell me he was going. No discussion. That again does not promote open communication. He also had plans to relocate and when I wanted to discuss the implications of that on ya - he told me he didn’t like discussing his plans with anyone and he was trying not to resent me for making him do that. In all of these cases - he was certainly conveying his boundaries but he was doing it in a way that was harmful to the relationship overall. By shutting down communication. By ignoring my feelings and needs. By treating me as ja bystander in the relationship as he would make the decisions and I had to deal. I got no say. I think the differing communication style between DA and AP is so different at times that it really does lead to conflict. And as others pointed out - in the pull phase - my ex was capable of communicating well. He was capable of being supportive and kind and open. So when he did things like the above I couldn’t help but think he was deliberately being ‘mean’ or a ‘jerk’. Especially in the moment because few of us are able to step out of the moment and say ‘I wonder what’s really going on here’ I suspect that both DA and AP ie both sides of the relationship feel they re in the right alot of the time - whilst everyone who's posted above felt that their partner was behaving unreasonably, the partner, I suspect was living in an alternative reality and therefore felt justified in their behaviour. Differing boundaries, attempts to communicate that are perceived and criticism, we are all looking at life through our own lenses and being convinced of our own rightness we necessarily make the other person wrong. No criticism intended here - I know very well how difficult it is to be with someone who's severely avoidant. It's easy to label the avoidant as wrong when infact they are living in a different reality - maybe one that's not compatible with an AP - maybe not compatible with relationship full stop. It can be very very hurtful - and hurt leads to feelings of anger and resentment. Many people here - myself included, felt we were the perfect partner - compassionate, available etc and ended up feeling resentful about our partners inability to give. But the kind of unconditional love we felt we offered was actually not that at all - it was dependent on our partner giving us what we needed and if this didn't happen alot of us, rather than setting boundaries, carried on regardless and accepted the unacceptable and then blamed their partner which escalated the conflict and led to more of the same. Personally, I worded my response in such a way as to ensure it wasn't a matter of me being right and him being wrong....I spoke to how it made me feel. I certainly could have addressed both my examples with him...and in hindsight...that was a miss on my part. I think part of the problem with insecure attachments from our childhood is that they have left us either completely blaming ourselves or our partner, when really it there is a lot of squishiness in the middle. In fact...I plan to write about the not so awesome aspects of my own attachment style because I don't see much of that on these boards. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 4:22:50 GMT
I think it's a case of an initial mismatch which becomes magnified over time with each side feeling the other is wrong - or making the other wrong for their needs and thus either upping the need for reassurance in the case of the ap or increasing the need for space in the case of the da/fa. I have come to this conclusion as well. It is a mismatch and my past continuous dating of the mismatch exacerbated my issues and theirs. I think each perceives the other as hurtful whereas if the styles were a match, the perception would be different. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 4:44:00 GMT
For instance - my ex had no issue with canceling plans with me at the last minute. When I got upset and stated that my time was equally valuable and making plans with him meant I moved things around - he stated bluntly he would no longer make plans until he was 100 percent sure he wouldn’t cancel. To me that read as a ‘pubishment’ - that’s what I get for challenging him. It also shut down any further communication which is not a healthy way of sustaining a relationship. Here is how we are so different. When I read this, I saw that you got upset that he kept having to cancel plans, so his saying he would not make plans unless he was sure he wouldn't cancel seems to me like a plausible solution to this issue. I would probably have said something similar and would not see it as a punishment in any way, but a logical plan to try and keep peace. I am not saying wither is right or wrong. I guess I am trying to figure out s this a communication issue, a perception issue or something else? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 14:05:17 GMT
Here is how we are so different. When I read this, I saw that you got upset that he kept having to cancel plans, so his saying he would not make plans unless he was sure he wouldn't cancel seems to me like a plausible solution to this issue. I would probably have said something similar and would not see it as a punishment in any way, but a logical plan to try and keep peace. I am not saying wither is right or wrong. I guess I am trying to figure out s this a communication issue, a perception issue or something else? I'm only seeing this from my perspective of course, but I think it isn't so important whether plans are cancelled or a solution is found. It is more about understanding the partner's viewpoint, that she feels she isn't important enough to her partner and that her needs and anticipation for a date don't matter to him. If he had said "I'm so sorry I cancelled, but this other meeting/event is very important because....I understand you feel upset, can I make it up to you in some other way?....etc." it'll be alright. To us, it is reasonable to be upset for anyone when plans are often cancelled at the last minute but to the DA, it is "neediness" on our part to feel upset. That's how I feel about my ex DA, I'm dispensable, Number 18th on his priority list, after his tennis lessons, etc...and only when he has some needs that I can fulfill which no one else in his life could would he come looking for me. He can disappear for weeks, doesn't call, texts me twice in 4 weeks, and he doesn't think it is unusual. I tend to mirror him, and as I saw that he felt pressured by his exes who called him often, I decided to let him initiate all contact and give him space. The only reason why I kept going was because he showed signs that he was serious about me, meeting each other's kids, etc., and he came back after I broke it off. However, I can't agree to a relationship this distant, and at times he seemed to be almost stressed to see me after a great date. So although we never fought, I didn't want to continue. I don't blame him for being DA at all. He is what he is, it is up to me to give up sooner than later. Actually, I feel there's something wrong with me to even feel attraction to him in the first place. I've had worse, an ex with NPD, that's not only DA, but DA + a whole avalanche of other craziness. May I ask a question? Please don't feel obligated to reply if you aren't comfortable. Do you live with your partner and how often do you see each other? |
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