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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 15:15:57 GMT
I'm only seeing this from my perspective of course, but I think it isn't so important whether plans are cancelled or a solution is found. It is more about understanding the partner's viewpoint, that she feels she isn't important enough to her partner and that her needs and anticipation for a date don't matter to him. If he had said "I'm so sorry I cancelled, but this other meeting/event is very important because....I understand you feel upset, can I make it up to you in some other way?....etc." it'll be alright. To us, it is reasonable to be upset for anyone when plans are often cancelled at the last minute but to the DA, it is "neediness" on our part to feel upset. That's how I feel about my ex DA, I'm dispensable, Number 18th on his priority list, after his tennis lessons, etc...and only when he has some needs that I can fulfill which no one else in his life could would he come looking for me. He can disappear for weeks, doesn't call, texts me twice in 4 weeks, and he doesn't think it is unusual. I tend to mirror him, and as I saw that he felt pressured by his exes who called him often, I decided to let him initiate all contact and give him space. The only reason why I kept going was because he showed signs that he was serious about me, meeting each other's kids, etc., and he came back after I broke it off. However, I can't agree to a relationship this distant, and at times he seemed to be almost stressed to see me after a great date. So although we never fought, I didn't want to continue. I don't blame him for being DA at all. He is what he is, it is up to me to give up sooner than later. Actually, I feel there's something wrong with me to even feel attraction to him in the first place. I've had worse, an ex with NPD, that's not only DA, but DA + a whole avalanche of other craziness. May I ask a question? Please don't feel obligated to reply if you aren't comfortable. Do you live with your partner and how often do you see each other? I understand now that for an AP, it's more about how the situation makes them feel. I guess that's my point about perspective. I am very solution oriented and feelings (mine or others) are not my first thought or an after thought. Sometimes I will say something and days later, I will think, I should have said something different. It's just such a different mindset. There are many articles about how women just want to vent and someone to listen and understand what they are saying and men just want to find a solution. I guess it's kind of like that. A lot of times though I do feel bad about something, but I don't know how to say it, so I will just try to come up with a solution or say nothing. I think with the AP/DA match, the AP is labeled needy, too sensitive and the DA is labeled distant, cold much more so because they are opposite ends of the spectrum. The divide might seem smaller for each if they were matched with a partner that was more towards the middle. I do not live with my partner, but I suspect we will in the next few years. We see each other at least every other day. We both have demanding careers, so that cuts into the time, but there are many weeks that we see each other every day. But in the beginning, it was once a week. |
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cate
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Post by cate on Dec 14, 2017 15:28:25 GMT
Mary - it’s definitely a communications issue. Which is driven by our perspective. As curious sated - had my ex communicated the cancellation in a different way I wouldn’t have gotten upset. But from my perspective it FELT like he was unconcern about my feelings and that my time is not as important. I can see how what he said seems reasonable. But if it’s followed by him not making any plans and ignoring me - you can see how I would view that as ‘punishment’.
But me wanting him to do X Y and Z is the same as him wanting me to stop making ‘demands’ and wanting so much of his time. It’s like two people on opposite sides of a cliff wanting the other to jump and come to them first. So fundamentally it’s incompatibility.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 16:03:08 GMT
Mary - it’s definitely a communications issue. Which is driven by our perspective. As curious sated - had my ex communicated the cancellation in a different way I wouldn’t have gotten upset. But from my perspective it FELT like he was unconcern about my feelings and that my time is not as important. I can see how what he said seems reasonable. But if it’s followed by him not making any plans and ignoring me - you can see how I would view that as ‘punishment’. But me wanting him to do X Y and Z is the same as him wanting me to stop making ‘demands’ and wanting so much of his time. It’s like two people on opposite sides of a cliff wanting the other to jump and come to them first. So fundamentally it’s incompatibility. I am curious, if he had said the same thing in a different way, a way that was acceptable, but still did not make plans with you after for a while because he was busy and could not insure he would not have to cancel. Would you still see the not making plans with you as a punishment? I am not asking to be difficult, I am just trying to see what you are saying. Since I only can understand that you saw it as a punishment, but I would not view it as a punishment. I would view it as I don't want to upset her again, so I'm not making plans that I don't know if I can keep. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 3:29:58 GMT
I understand now that for an AP, it's more about how the situation makes them feel. I guess that's my point about perspective. I am very solution oriented and feelings (mine or others) are not my first thought or an after thought. Sometimes I will say something and days later, I will think, I should have said something different. It's just such a different mindset. There are many articles about how women just want to vent and someone to listen and understand what they are saying and men just want to find a solution. I guess it's kind of like that. A lot of times though I do feel bad about something, but I don't know how to say it, so I will just try to come up with a solution or say nothing. I think with the AP/DA match, the AP is labeled needy, too sensitive and the DA is labeled distant, cold much more so because they are opposite ends of the spectrum. The divide might seem smaller for each if they were matched with a partner that was more towards the middle. I do not live with my partner, but I suspect we will in the next few years. We see each other at least every other day. We both have demanding careers, so that cuts into the time, but there are many weeks that we see each other every day. But in the beginning, it was once a week. Not sure that it's about feelings...maybe it's more partner/dating etiquette? To simply understand that it is disrespectful to flake out on someone and then propose a "solution" which doesn't sound like it is a way to ensure that there won't be any more flaky behaviour. For example, I have a friend who is always late, and I have to wait 30 min to 1 hour for her every time. She apologizes, but still, my time got wasted. However, imagine if she doesn't apologize but instead said perhaps we shouldn't arrange to meet until those days when I can be sure I have enough time to not feel frustrated waiting for her....etc. It is a "solution", but telegraphs complete misunderstanding of the real issue there, passive-aggressiveness and outright defiance. The spectrum of grasping social cues/mores could be the problem here, it could be some DAs are not truly understanding them. |
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cate
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Post by cate on Dec 17, 2017 4:28:55 GMT
Exactly curious. It’s definitely passive aggressive and misses the bigger picture. And as I said - done in a way that shuts down communication.
To answer your question Mary - I think we are focusing on the details and not the larger picture. Let’s say he had communicated in a clear way and said ‘look I have a big project coming up so I need to log extra time so I can’t make plans for a while OK?’
Would I be upset? Do I view this as punishment?
It depends. If he was normally consistent in his behavior and committed to me? Then no.
But my ex was not committed to me. He was consistently inconsistent. And that’s what I mean by the big picture. Even after he said he wouldn’t make plans unless he wouldn’t cancel - he still did. So I never knew if he’d cancel something at the last minute. This eroded my trust in him over time because I couldn’t depend on him. I never knew if he’d follow through.
So it’s not so much oneincident but many built up over time. Consistency and communication builds trust and over time those 2 things eroded with my ex so it was hard for me to trust him and give him the benefit of a doubt. I realize some of this was also my anxious attachment coming into play but his actions did play a role in it no relationship ends based on one fight or a few incidents.
And the main thing was as curious mentioned - the way he tried to ‘solve’ the issue didn’t solve it at all but compounded the problem. John Gottman wrote that it’s not so much that couples fight but how they ‘repair’ from those fights that matter and my ex rarely repaired. And for me - each fight or flaky behavior just built up.
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Post by aisling on Dec 17, 2017 8:55:27 GMT
Listening to you explain this, Cate, feels all too familiar. I totally get it. There’s just something fundamentally lacking, some emotional sensitivity and responsiveness, that (I guess) APs and maybe secures come to expect. Emotional attunement isn’t left-brained or solution-based. It’s not telling someone, in a non-collaborative and unilateral-decision-making kind of way, that you’ll simply avoid making plans. That disregards your feelings, or at the very least, doesn’t address yours or include you in matters that affect both of you as a couple. Not saying I know what you’re feeling, just throwing that out there and echoing what you and others have said. I think!
I used to have conflict after conflict with my ex-FA for the exact same reason: what I perceived to be lack of empathy and an incomprehension of the subtle, nuanced way of anticipating someone’s emotional reaction or feelings. Not the same as taking responsibility for my/APs feelings or catering to protest behavior, but simply relating without having to be told or shown how to. It feels crappy. I would get upset about this, he wouldn’t understand why, I’d end up feeling resentful bc he felt I was “unreasonable” which I felt was just his inability to really see and feel me... incompatible, yeah. How can you bridge that gap??
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cate
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Post by cate on Dec 17, 2017 15:24:51 GMT
Aisling -
That’s pretty much how I felt. 😀
i used that word constantly - unilateral. He made decisions about his life (which he had a right to) which in turn impacted me but didn’t discuss with me. And when I got upset - didn’t understand why. He even said to me ‘what if I don’t want to discuss things with you?’ In relation to him relocating!
It it was like he was still single in his mind and I was just someone he would share things with from time to time. I don’t know if this is an avoidant thing but it was certainly not conductive to having a good relationship.
Its so so funny because when we were just friends he discussed everything with me and sought my advice on matters small and large. That’s why I attribute this to be a distancing strategy and a way to pick fights. Because he was capable of it. But only to a point.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 16:24:50 GMT
Exactly curious. It’s definitely passive aggressive and misses the bigger picture. And as I said - done in a way that shuts down communication. To answer your question Mary - I think we are focusing on the details and not the larger picture. Let’s say he had communicated in a clear way and said ‘look I have a big project coming up so I need to log extra time so I can’t make plans for a while OK?’ Would I be upset? Do I view this as punishment? It depends. If he was normally consistent in his behavior and committed to me? Then no. But my ex was not committed to me. He was consistently inconsistent. And that’s what I mean by the big picture. Even after he said he wouldn’t make plans unless he wouldn’t cancel - he still did. So I never knew if he’d cancel something at the last minute. This eroded my trust in him over time because I couldn’t depend on him. I never knew if he’d follow through. So it’s not so much one incident but many built up over time. Consistency and communication builds trust and over time those 2 things eroded with my ex so it was hard for me to trust him and give him the benefit of a doubt. I realize some of this was also my anxious attachment coming into play but his actions did play a role in it no relationship ends based on one fight or a few incidents. And the main thing was as curious mentioned - the way he tried to ‘solve’ the issue didn’t solve it at all but compounded the problem. John Gottman wrote that it’s not so much that couples fight but how they ‘repair’ from those fights that matter and my ex rarely repaired. And for me - each fight or flaky behavior just built up. This I understand. I have a friend who is not DA, but consistently cancels plans last minute. I think she is just a terrible planner, but I would never consider her reliable. I don't see this as a communication issue. Someone who is flaky is just flaky, no matter how they communicate it to me. To me, this is a boundaries issue. If someone is flaky with me, I can be friend with them, but not very good friends and not someone I would choose as a partner. My DA style is less off and on. If I make plans, I keep them, but when I do need space, it could be for an extended period of time. Do not take this as a criticism, but I wonder why APs do not have stronger boundaries. He has shown you time and time again, he is not reliable, but many APs will continue down the road for some time. My automatic assumption about people (not necessarily the right one) is that people don't change. If I don't like what they do from the beginning, I am not sticking around. Is this the hope that they will change ? I guess I have to temper this with I do think tendencies can dampen over time given the right environment, but I see the issue of reliability as being a basic respect issue. |
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cate
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Post by cate on Dec 17, 2017 17:29:40 GMT
Mary -
That was the confounding part. He wasn’t always like that. He was actually quite punctual and reliable and a man of his word. That’s why I trusted him. And in turn fell for him.
This was a part of his distancing strategy. And what I perceived as a way to pick fights. As I mentioned - when we were just friends and in the early part of our relationship - he rarely canceled plans and always made up for it when he did. It was never last minute.
I think for us APs that on and off intermittent reinforcement caused us to be even more anxious and cling harder. Or prove our worth to the DA. I’m learning in therapy this mimics my relationship with my mother and subconsciously I associate that with love. What’s familiar is comforting.
At the risk of oversimplification - I’m starting to see that DA seem to operate from their heads a lot. And AP from their heart. Ideally this would make us a good whole. Except it doesn’t work out that way.
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