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Post by iz42 on Jan 28, 2023 23:40:56 GMT
I've posted elsewhere about the process my DA boyfriend and I have gone through trying to create a secure relationship. We're both in individual therapy and he is aware of his DA attachment. We also both have ADHD, which is an added challenge. We've been together for 1.5 years. There are a lot of wonderful things about the relationship and we've made good progress in our communication in many ways.
However, since we first met I've noticed that we struggle with reuniting after we've been apart. We spend time together 3-4 times a week. I know he does want to see me. But when we first see each other, he often seems to be shut down and he will interrupt our greeting to try to assess my mood. He says that otherwise he doesn't know if he's interacting with me in the right way. I guess this is a form of self protection? The thing is, I don't want my mood to be assessed - it feels weird and invasive. I want him to trust me to communicate my feelings directly if necessary. He asks me questions in a way that doesn't feel genuine and it puts me on edge. Our greetings end up feeling cold and transactional and I have trouble connecting with him after that. This happens almost every time we see each other, so it is having a pretty big impact.
I think this would be less difficult if he could say that greetings are hard and he needs some space when we first see each other. I understand that it's likely difficult to transition from being alone to being together. I could accept that and provide space. But it doesn't feel like he would even allow me to do that because he's so focused on determining my mood.
We've discussed this issue but I don't feel like there's been much progress. I'm wondering if there is anyone else has experienced similar challenges with greetings who might have thoughts.
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Post by iz42 on Jan 29, 2023 6:15:02 GMT
I've asked him to give me some space when we first see each other before asking me questions. We'll see how that goes.
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Post by introvert on Jan 29, 2023 6:46:38 GMT
I've asked him to give me some space when we first see each other before asking me questions. We'll see how that goes. Hmm, what kinds of questions is he asking? |
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Post by mrob on Jan 29, 2023 8:26:02 GMT
That’s actually what most people are able to pick up without words. With non verbal cues, body language, etc. every day. The person on the check out does it, the barista does it. Family does it, friends do it. If they don’t, the world doesn’t go around.
This bloke is trying to be honest and must be struggling with the non verbal stuff.
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Post by introvert on Jan 29, 2023 16:02:11 GMT
That’s actually what most people are able to pick up without words. With non verbal cues, body language, etc. every day. The person on the check out does it, the barista does it. Family does it, friends do it. If they don’t, the world doesn’t go around. This bloke is trying to be honest and must be struggling with the non verbal stuff. I agree with this, and was curious about what kinds of questions he is asking to understand what he is trying to ascertain. It seems to me that my defensive avoidant approach to a greeting can sometimes be "What do you want from me, how can I prevent your unhappiness with me?" , particularly if I have "gotten in trouble " for not providing the greeting expected. For instance, there have been times that on the drive to meet my boyfriend, I received texts or calls about my business that require a response or some action immediately after I finish driving. In the cases where I have attended to that first, in order to put it aside so I can then properly engage with my partner, he has become angry at my perceived rudeness. So I felt a lot of pressure to 1) not drop the ball on my clients, or forget to do what task is at hand And 2) not drop the ball on my partner, who seemed intolerant of allowing me to take care of pressing things, instead insisting on immersion in the greeting even while I had pressure on me. It became a source of tension for a while, as I resented being made the bad person for merely doing what I need to do in my role as a business owner, and he resented not being greeted with a long hug and kiss immediately upon my arrival. I felt that my dedication to him was displayed by my driving to him and making the effort to reunite, and that a moments pause did not detract from the reunion. He felt that the pause was inappropriate and he was hurt by it. So, greetings between the two sides can be fraught with difficulty and require patience and understanding on both sides, as we approach things in different ways according to our own ideas of how to take care of our lives, ourselves, our relationships. |
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Post by iz42 on Jan 29, 2023 19:42:04 GMT
That’s actually what most people are able to pick up without words. With non verbal cues, body language, etc. every day. The person on the check out does it, the barista does it. Family does it, friends do it. If they don’t, the world doesn’t go around. This bloke is trying to be honest and must be struggling with the non verbal stuff. I agree with this, and was curious about what kinds of questions he is asking to understand what he is trying to ascertain. It seems to me that my defensive avoidant approach to a greeting can sometimes be "What do you want from me, how can I prevent your unhappiness with me?" , particularly if I have "gotten in trouble " for not providing the greeting expected. For instance, there have been times that on the drive to meet my boyfriend, I received texts or calls about my business that require a response or some action immediately after I finish driving. In the cases where I have attended to that first, in order to put it aside so I can then properly engage with my partner, he has become angry at my perceived rudeness. So I felt a lot of pressure to 1) not drop the ball on my clients, or forget to do what task is at hand And 2) not drop the ball on my partner, who seemed intolerant of allowing me to take care of pressing things, instead insisting on immersion in the greeting even while I had pressure on me. It became a source of tension for a while, as I resented being made the bad person for merely doing what I need to do in my role as a business owner, and he resented not being greeted with a long hug and kiss immediately upon my arrival. I felt that my dedication to him was displayed by my driving to him and making the effort to reunite, and that a moments pause did not detract from the reunion. He felt that the pause was inappropriate and he was hurt by it. So, greetings between the two sides can be fraught with difficulty and require patience and understanding on both sides, as we approach things in different ways according to our own ideas of how to take care of our lives, ourselves, our relationships. This makes sense that things would be particularly fraught in those moments. Thanks for sharing this example. It's really helpful. I think it's less the actual questions he's asking and more his body language and tone. What comes across most is that his defenses are up. When I arrive at his house he often seems tense and his questions sound impersonal. He will say stuff like "did you get any work done?" in a flat tone of voice and that makes wonder if he will disapprove if I say no. When I first see him I'm usually doing well and trying to convey that I'm happy to see him, but he will look at me with a tense and concerned face. It's almost like he has trouble trusting it when I tell him I'm fine. When he asks questions from that place of tenseness and I can tell that he doesn't always trust my answers, I feel like I need to "perform" that I am in a good mood to help him relax. That starts to make ME feel anxious and it goes into a downward spiral. I have thought about greeting him by telling him directly that I'm not in a bad mood or that I'm not upset with him. That might be sort of confusing though. I have a lot of compassion for the fact that he is uncomfortable and sometimes feels defensive in those moments. I'm trying to be patient, but I hope to collaborate to find a solution that works for both of us. Maybe taking things easier and having less immediate interaction when we first see each other will help. |
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Post by usernametaken on Jan 29, 2023 21:04:31 GMT
What if you were to try to fake it until you make it ? Like tell yourself he loves me and I'm going to remind myself he loves me, act normal and take some deep breaths and stay regulated until he can come around.
I know @introvert posted before about how much she appreciated her partner just acting "normal" while she was indrawn. I'll let her speak more to that, just came to mind.
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Post by introvert on Jan 29, 2023 21:22:19 GMT
I agree with this, and was curious about what kinds of questions he is asking to understand what he is trying to ascertain. It seems to me that my defensive avoidant approach to a greeting can sometimes be "What do you want from me, how can I prevent your unhappiness with me?" , particularly if I have "gotten in trouble " for not providing the greeting expected. For instance, there have been times that on the drive to meet my boyfriend, I received texts or calls about my business that require a response or some action immediately after I finish driving. In the cases where I have attended to that first, in order to put it aside so I can then properly engage with my partner, he has become angry at my perceived rudeness. So I felt a lot of pressure to 1) not drop the ball on my clients, or forget to do what task is at hand And 2) not drop the ball on my partner, who seemed intolerant of allowing me to take care of pressing things, instead insisting on immersion in the greeting even while I had pressure on me. It became a source of tension for a while, as I resented being made the bad person for merely doing what I need to do in my role as a business owner, and he resented not being greeted with a long hug and kiss immediately upon my arrival. I felt that my dedication to him was displayed by my driving to him and making the effort to reunite, and that a moments pause did not detract from the reunion. He felt that the pause was inappropriate and he was hurt by it. So, greetings between the two sides can be fraught with difficulty and require patience and understanding on both sides, as we approach things in different ways according to our own ideas of how to take care of our lives, ourselves, our relationships. This makes sense that things would be particularly fraught in those moments. Thanks for sharing this example. It's really helpful. I think it's less the actual questions he's asking and more his body language and tone. What comes across most is that his defenses are up. When I arrive at his house he often seems tense and his questions sound impersonal. He will say stuff like "did you get any work done?" in a flat tone of voice and that makes wonder if he will disapprove if I say no. When I first see him I'm usually doing well and trying to convey that I'm happy to see him, but he will look at me with a tense and concerned face. It's almost like he has trouble trusting it when I tell him I'm fine. When he asks questions from that place of tenseness and I can tell that he doesn't always trust my answers, I feel like I need to "perform" that I am in a good mood to help him relax. That starts to make ME feel anxious and it goes into a downward spiral. I have thought about greeting him by telling him directly that I'm not in a bad mood or that I'm not upset with him. That might be sort of confusing though. I have a lot of compassion for the fact that he is uncomfortable and sometimes feels defensive in those moments. I'm trying to be patient, but I hope to collaborate to find a solution that works for both of us. Maybe taking things easier and having less immediate interaction when we first see each other will help. From the avoidant side, I really think that a slower transition to shared energy would help. When I am by myself I have a huge bubble around me, I am really operating in an internal place and it does take time to recalibrate and tune into partnership. I have to wind down my thought processes which are often centered around my responsibilities and practical things, plus perhaps feeling hungry or tired once I disengage from what I was involved with. SO I guess for me personally I feel a little emptied out ans like a need to regroup before I can meet any one else needs, even my own. IdK, I've read about it here, that one person psychology that Stan Tatkin writes about. It might help it feel less personal if you just view it as an internal thermostat that takes time to warm to interaction. That's how it is for me |
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Post by iz42 on Jan 29, 2023 21:33:43 GMT
What if you were to try to fake it until you make it ? Like tell yourself he loves me and I'm going to remind myself he loves me, act normal and take some deep breaths and stay regulated until he can come around. I know @introvert posted before about how much she appreciated her partner just acting "normal" while she was indrawn. I'll let her speak more to that, just came to mind. Yeah, I think taking deep breaths and trying to regulate myself would help. It’s just a little hard to do that in front of him. But it would be a good exercise to try. I can go into our greetings assuming he will be dysregulated and not let that affect me. I don’t like having to fake it though — it makes me feel a bit like I’m betraying myself. And I think part of the problem is that he can sense that I’m faking it and he starts to get concerned. But maybe I can frame it differently. |
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Post by iz42 on Jan 29, 2023 21:46:23 GMT
This makes sense that things would be particularly fraught in those moments. Thanks for sharing this example. It's really helpful. I think it's less the actual questions he's asking and more his body language and tone. What comes across most is that his defenses are up. When I arrive at his house he often seems tense and his questions sound impersonal. He will say stuff like "did you get any work done?" in a flat tone of voice and that makes wonder if he will disapprove if I say no. When I first see him I'm usually doing well and trying to convey that I'm happy to see him, but he will look at me with a tense and concerned face. It's almost like he has trouble trusting it when I tell him I'm fine. When he asks questions from that place of tenseness and I can tell that he doesn't always trust my answers, I feel like I need to "perform" that I am in a good mood to help him relax. That starts to make ME feel anxious and it goes into a downward spiral. I have thought about greeting him by telling him directly that I'm not in a bad mood or that I'm not upset with him. That might be sort of confusing though. I have a lot of compassion for the fact that he is uncomfortable and sometimes feels defensive in those moments. I'm trying to be patient, but I hope to collaborate to find a solution that works for both of us. Maybe taking things easier and having less immediate interaction when we first see each other will help. From the avoidant side, I really think that a slower transition to shared energy would help. When I am by myself I have a huge bubble around me, I am really operating in an internal place and it does take time to recalibrate and tune into partnership. I have to wind down my thought processes which are often centered around my responsibilities and practical things, plus perhaps feeling hungry or tired once I disengage from what I was involved with. SO I guess for me personally I feel a little emptied out ans like a need to regroup before I can meet any one else needs, even my own. IdK, I've read about it here, that one person psychology that Stan Tatkin writes about. It might help it feel less personal if you just view it as an internal thermostat that takes time to warm to interaction. That's how it is for me wow that's so helpful!! the thermostat thing makes a ton of sense. I often read it as a signal that he wants to be alone, and that makes me want to leave because I want to give him what he wants. But if I left every time he indicated that he wanted distance, we wouldn't really have a relationship. |
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Post by introvert on Jan 30, 2023 0:37:32 GMT
What if you were to try to fake it until you make it ? Like tell yourself he loves me and I'm going to remind myself he loves me, act normal and take some deep breaths and stay regulated until he can come around. I know @introvert posted before about how much she appreciated her partner just acting "normal" while she was indrawn. I'll let her speak more to that, just came to mind. Yeah, I think taking deep breaths and trying to regulate myself would help. It’s just a little hard to do that in front of him. But it would be a good exercise to try. I can go into our greetings assuming he will be dysregulated and not let that affect me. I don’t like having to fake it though — it makes me feel a bit like I’m betraying myself. And I think part of the problem is that he can sense that I’m faking it and he starts to get concerned. But maybe I can frame it differently. Maybe it would help to just frame it a little differently. I don't know if he's dysregulated so much as just being how he's wired... I mean some people are like dogs and some are like cats. Dogs are super demonstrative and eager to engage physically and emotionally the minute they see you. Cats might come up and walk next to you and rub up against your leg and then sit down and look at you, depending on the cat... but once you're in and set down they want to come snuggle up and be next to you. Just very different energies but they are both glad to see you and have affection for you. Also, what do you need in a greeting? What I need is transition time, and to get my bearings from being in my head even just on the way over depending on what my day was like. A good place to start, for me, is a "Hey babe, you hungry? Want to get a bite?" And maybe just a minute to put away "tasks and things I have been thinking about" so I can open up "interacting with my person, yay!" . Maybe you can find a way to greet each other that's not heavy, but not meaningless... there are ways to nurture each other that are a gentle approach.. offer of a bite to eat, some back scratches and a lil hug, "are you ready to relax baby or do you need to tie up any loose ends?" Those ways of connecting damn near make me swoon haha. There's got to be a way to step into the moment together, in a way that makes you both feel welcome just as you are? |
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Post by introvert on Jan 30, 2023 0:41:31 GMT
What if you were to try to fake it until you make it ? Like tell yourself he loves me and I'm going to remind myself he loves me, act normal and take some deep breaths and stay regulated until he can come around. I know @introvert posted before about how much she appreciated her partner just acting "normal" while she was indrawn. I'll let her speak more to that, just came to mind. Yeah, I think taking deep breaths and trying to regulate myself would help. It’s just a little hard to do that in front of him. But it would be a good exercise to try. I can go into our greetings assuming he will be dysregulated and not let that affect me. I don’t like having to fake it though — it makes me feel a bit like I’m betraying myself. And I think part of the problem is that he can sense that I’m faking it and he starts to get concerned. But maybe I can frame it differently. Also try to let go of the narrative that because he's DA he wants to be alone. DA want connection very much, there's just some stuff to scoot out of the way, just takes a few moments to rearrange the internal furniture to make a place for you to be is all. At least that's how it is for me. I don't want you to go I just have to scoot stuff around to make a place next to me then I really want to sit down with you, if ya know what I mean. |
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Post by iz42 on Jun 17, 2023 19:30:36 GMT
I've been reading back through this thread and reflecting on where things have come since January. I do think my partner and I are on the right track, but the work is still very hard. We've been in couples therapy for a few months. I've seen progress on both sides. We both have codependent tendencies (as a DA he wants to avoid upsetting me or rocking the boat and before I was more secure I wanted to avoid challenging him in a way that would make him get fed up and leave). I have strengthened my self-soothing techniques and I have made a lot of progress around differentiation and developing trust and security within myself. I think we're starting to be less intensely triggered in moments of conflict.
We still struggle with greetings. I do understand things from his side more now than I did before. He says he is eager to show me he is "all good" when we first see each other, I guess as a way of reassuring me, and he also says he approaches me with quite a bit of caution until he can tell what kind of mood I'm in. His trepidation confuses me, and I don't like having to "prove" that I'm in a good mood to make him feel comfortable to approach me. I generally feel happy to see him, and on most days I would describe my mood as neutral, neither good nor bad. If I greet him in this neutral way, it makes him nervous that I could be hiding something that will come out later, and that makes him withdraw. Talking about this more openly has helped, but I'm not totally sure what to do on my end other than to say explicitly "I'm not in a bad mood" whenever we see each other.
My biggest concern is I have a general sense that he is "doing life" on his own rather than with me. Maybe it's just because the work we've been doing is so overwhelming and his way of processing is to retreat. If this is the case, it's totally understandable and I can accept it in the short term. But in the larger scheme of things, I want a partner who considers me when making plans and who sees us as mutual support systems in tough times. This is where he really struggles. He tends to withdraw around making plans, articulating his needs, and providing or receiving support. I don't really have answers but I'm going to have to decide how long I'm willing to wait to see if we can develop the kind of partnership where we "do life" more together than separately. Of course I need to feel solid on my own without fully relying on him. But I do think I'm coming at this from a more secure place -- looking at the kind of partnership I want in the long term instead of expecting him to rescue me from my insecurity.
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Post by introvert on Jun 18, 2023 13:40:09 GMT
The need to verify that you're in a good mood is troubling to me... does he require emotional positivity in order to engage? That would be toxic and selfish, unempathetic. DA have to come out of thst place of emotional isolation where they emotional isolate themselves and emotionaly isolate others by avoiding negativity, in order to achieve true intimacy. Otherwise he's playing house so to speak without taking on the emotional responsibilities of partnership which means being emotionally present for you wherever you are at. Nobody is in a good mood all the time unless they are stuffing, avoiding, people pleasing, or manipulating somehow.
I'd be turned off by that, and be letting him know whatever is going on with me and there's the door if he can't handle it, but that's me at 52 years old completely over shenanigans. Nobody needs to regulate me but if they don't have the maturity and availability to remain consistent through thick and thin they are a fair weather friend and that's the shallow type that I don't make room for.
I think its great that your perspective has shifted to being able to ponder and choose what you want rather than needing to be chosen or keep him interested. You get to grow out of relationships in the process of moving to secure. Not every attempt is going to land, not every partner is going to keep up.
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Post by iz42 on Jun 18, 2023 21:47:13 GMT
The need to verify that you're in a good mood is troubling to me... does he require emotional positivity in order to engage? That would be toxic and selfish, unempathetic. DA have to come out of thst place of emotional isolation where they emotional isolate themselves and emotionaly isolate others by avoiding negativity, in order to achieve true intimacy. Otherwise he's playing house so to speak without taking on the emotional responsibilities of partnership which means being emotionally present for you wherever you are at. Nobody is in a good mood all the time unless they are stuffing, avoiding, people pleasing, or manipulating somehow. I'd be turned off by that, and be letting him know whatever is going on with me and there's the door if he can't handle it, but that's me at 52 years old completely over shenanigans. Nobody needs to regulate me but if they don't have the maturity and availability to remain consistent through thick and thin they are a fair weather friend and that's the shallow type that I don't make room for. I think its great that your perspective has shifted to being able to ponder and choose what you want rather than needing to be chosen or keep him interested. You get to grow out of relationships in the process of moving to secure. Not every attempt is going to land, not every partner is going to keep up. I’m not sure it’s true that he requires emotional positivity in general. It’s more that he is uneasy around the possibility of me being upset with him specifically. I’ve learned that much of what he is doing (in our relationship and in general) is preparing for the worst. I guess this is a result of trauma and neurodivergence, and maybe also DA conditioning. I’m not sure. It is something he’s actively working on, so I do have to appreciate that he is in the process of trying to shift these patterns. In terms of our greetings, the “worst case scenario” in his mind is that I will be upset with him. So he prepares himself for that and focuses on it. It almost turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy because his hypervigilance throws me off and makes it harder for us to connect. This kind of fear-based thinking is present in many aspects of his life. I know that it’s not my job to manage it. As a mostly secure partner at this point, all I’m doing is showing up and trying to connect. If something about that makes him hypervigilant, it’s more on him than on me. He is aware of all these issues and he’s working on them in his own therapy and we are working together in couples therapy. I definitely have seen progress and that gives me hope. But as we all know, this kind of change can be very slow. I know it’s taken me a long time to become more secure (somewhere around 3-5 years I think), so I’m trying to be patient. I’m trying to trust that I’ll know when my patience for all of this stuff has run out. |
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