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Post by mysteryuser on Apr 14, 2023 0:04:15 GMT
I recently got out of a relationship and I have been reflecting on my anxious attachment style. Over the years, with assistance from a therapist, I've been able to recognize some of the deep rooted reasons from childhood that contributed to and shaped my behavior, feelings, and thoughts. I have looked into this in the past when I was seeing other people as well, and I feel like I have come a long way since. Upon reflection of late, I've realized that in my last relationship I had presented largely securely until I was blindsided with a break up. We then got back together - I eased in very slowly - but this time I started exhibiting protest behaviors and eventually because of a few reasons, he ended things again.
I'm realizing though that a lot of my behavior is secure and I am no longer the level of anxious I was a few years ago, due to my own work and other factors such as building a better life for myself in other ways. But two of the biggest things holding my back that definitely showed up in my previous relationship were:
- protest behaviors exhibited while mirroring the other person (I definitely started slipping into some behaviors because he exhibited those, like occasional silent treatments -- though VERY short and a few hours at most -- because he was doing that or being critical back because I felt like he was being critical)
- fawning during conflict ("I'll agree with you on everything and do anything, just don't leave me!" - didn't say it out loud, but I was feeling it)
- failing to recognize, establish, and enforce my boundaries (I always felt and thought his take on 'minimizing' conflict was unrealistic/unhealthy, and I may have voiced it without conviction here or there, but never raised it because I didn't want him to think I didn't care about his opinion/didn't want to upset him/make him anxious by -- in his view -- not wanting to 'minimize' conflict, and a few other instances but honestly I don't even know because I don't know how to recognize boundaries)
I will of course keep working with my therapist on this, but I'm wondering if any of you have experience working on these. I know that when I put in the effort to recognize and enforce boundaries, I am able to do it well e.g., when I first started dating, within a month or so after I understood my need for regular texting, I started going on dates with people who gave me exactly that instead of trying to 'change' someone who was a bad texter (which I would've done before I recognized that as a boundary of mine).
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Post by alexandra on Apr 14, 2023 0:19:41 GMT
A lot of triggered AP behaviors come directly out of your nervous system getting flooded and overwhelmed by a fear of abandonment. So when working through it, as you get more secure, my opinion is the two situations most likely to still trigger stuff are being in a heavily stressful situation or getting triggered specifically by a romantic partner (this just seems to be the hardest to fully rewire, even after improving responses to family members and friends, it's just the most intense wounding to overcome while you're still on your way there). And it just takes time, practice, curiosity, and consciously interrupting the negative thought patterns and getting back into your body / remaining present to overcome the sudden abandonment fear. So I think you're asking the right questions and taking the right approach. It's one of those, everything you're still working on bigger picture will eventually come together as you continue building your self-esteem, self-acceptance, self-reliance, and ability to be present over time, and there's no clear way it all comes together. But keep practicing the tools and doing your thing, and it all helps gradually address the fears at the root of the behaviors.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 14, 2023 1:27:19 GMT
I recently got out of a relationship and I have been reflecting on my anxious attachment style. Over the years, with assistance from a therapist, I've been able to recognize some of the deep rooted reasons from childhood that contributed to and shaped my behavior, feelings, and thoughts. I have looked into this in the past when I was seeing other people as well, and I feel like I have come a long way since. Upon reflection of late, I've realized that in my last relationship I had presented largely securely until I was blindsided with a break up. We then got back together - I eased in very slowly - but this time I started exhibiting protest behaviors and eventually because of a few reasons, he ended things again.
I'm realizing though that a lot of my behavior is secure and I am no longer the level of anxious I was a few years ago, due to my own work and other factors such as building a better life for myself in other ways. But two of the biggest things holding my back that definitely showed up in my previous relationship were:
- protest behaviors exhibited while mirroring the other person (I definitely started slipping into some behaviors because he exhibited those, like occasional silent treatments -- though VERY short and a few hours at most -- because he was doing that or being critical back because I felt like he was being critical)
- fawning during conflict ("I'll agree with you on everything and do anything, just don't leave me!" - didn't say it out loud, but I was feeling it)
- failing to recognize, establish, and enforce my boundaries (I always felt and thought his take on 'minimizing' conflict was unrealistic/unhealthy, and I may have voiced it without conviction here or there, but never raised it because I didn't want him to think I didn't care about his opinion/didn't want to upset him/make him anxious by -- in his view -- not wanting to 'minimize' conflict, and a few other instances but honestly I don't even know because I don't know how to recognize boundaries)
I will of course keep working with my therapist on this, but I'm wondering if any of you have experience working on these. I know that when I put in the effort to recognize and enforce boundaries, I am able to do it well e.g., when I first started dating, within a month or so after I understood my need for regular texting, I started going on dates with people who gave me exactly that instead of trying to 'change' someone who was a bad texter (which I would've done before I recognized that as a boundary of mine).
I think relationships are tough to use because so much has to do with trauma that is stored from decades ago…..one thing that can happen is a desire to swiftly move through stages of grief or retrain patterns of ingrown behaviors in months….and although naturally secure people have a bit of an upper hand, even they have “moments”. What I have found most useful is to acknowledge that I am in process and giving myself a ton of grace. And when I have really bad days…to treat myself with kindness. I would encourage you to look at the overarching arc of your behaviors above. Which parent do you most identify that behavior with? What unstated messages come up? (Ie: it is not safe to stand up for myself. If I mimic parent x he/she might love me back). Do I have any physical symptoms when I think about this…ie tightness in the throat,stiffness in a body part, a quick/scared heartbeat? It took years before I could shift my focus from my partners to my parents…but the parent work has been more lasting and has resulted in a better understanding of the roots of the behaviors I exhibited with my partners. Just a thought. 🙂
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Post by mysteryuser on Apr 14, 2023 23:53:24 GMT
tnr9 oh yes I totally agree and that's exactly what I'm working on in therapy. I have always found insight oriented work with my therapists to be the most helpful about most things, but it also helps to have some action oriented work to be helpful especially while dating.
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Post by kirrok on Apr 18, 2023 14:28:47 GMT
mysteryuser One approach to working with boundaries that has been quite life-changing for me comes from Australian James "Fish" Gill. His contention is that much of the advice around boundaries is actually about creating barriers: putting up walls to keep out a source of threat. Barriers amplify opposition, and this amplification of opposition is likely to catalyze more of the anxious-avoidant dance. Fish thinks of a boundary as a mutually-agreed, mutually-beneficial way forward that is better for both people (i.e. to be less stressful, less hurt, less sad, etc). In the usual sense, a boundary typically comes from our own experience: what do I want more of/less of based on the pain I'm not OK with. But my pain misses the valid, beautiful yearning behind their pain. A skillful working with boundaries looks like, "I'm not OK with X because it leaves me feeling Y, AND I recognize what you're hoping for is not my upset. You want A, B, C…" This, to me, is a secure approach to expressing one's own needs while honoring the valid yearning of the other person's tender heart. Fish advocates for trying to see and acknowledge four truths in any conflict: 1) My heart's valid yearning; 2) The unintended upset my heart's valid yearning causes you; 3) Your tender heart's valid yearning; 4) The unintended upset your heart's valid yearning causes me. And it only takes one person to see and acknowledge these four truths to dissolve opposition. Working through these four truths will often yield a healthy boundary that is mutually beneficial to both people. And again: this seems to me to be a very secure approach to navigating conflict/opposition, expressing needs, and seeing and honoring the needs of the other person.
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Post by introvert on Apr 18, 2023 14:55:14 GMT
mysteryuser One approach to working with boundaries that has been quite life-changing for me comes from Australian James "Fish" Gill. His contention is that much of the advice around boundaries is actually about creating barriers: putting up walls to keep out a source of threat. Barriers amplify opposition, and this amplification of opposition is likely to catalyze more of the anxious-avoidant dance. Fish thinks of a boundary as a mutually-agreed, mutually-beneficial way forward that is better for both people (i.e. to be less stressful, less hurt, less sad, etc). In the usual sense, a boundary typically comes from our own experience: what do I want more of/less of based on the pain I'm not OK with. But my pain misses the valid, beautiful yearning behind their pain. A skillful working with boundaries looks like, "I'm not OK with X because it leaves me feeling Y, AND I recognize what you're hoping for is not my upset. You want A, B, C…" This, to me, is a secure approach to expressing one's own needs while honoring the valid yearning of the other person's tender heart. Fish advocates for trying to see and acknowledge four truths in any conflict: 1) My heart's valid yearning; 2) The unintended upset my heart's valid yearning causes you; 3) Your tender heart's valid yearning; 4) The unintended upset your heart's valid yearning causes me. And it only takes one person to see these four truths to dissolve opposition. Working through these four truths will often yield a healthy boundary that is mutually beneficial to both people. And again: this seems to me to be a very secure approach to navigating conflict/opposition, expressing needs, and seeing and honoring the needs of the other person. I think this is a great approach for two individuals in a fairly secure, emotionally available relationship. However, in an insecure relationship those yearnings are often counter to a healthy relationship. If two partners are not individually healthy enough to recognize their compulsions in the relationship as unhealthy patterns, then even the most secure approaches won't yield true partnership. In other words, what the heart yearns for is sometimes just an expression of unhealthy coping mechanisms. Two people would need to be able to understand and articulate their inner world enough to get to a healthy resolution, and in insecure dynamics that skill is often lacking. Especially with an avoidant, who will have a vague yet compelling urge to escape. That internal drive is a survival drive in which empathy and teamwork aren't supported by the nervous system itself. An AP may have a sincere yearning for rescue driven by emotional dependence, and that yearning isn't driven by empathy and teamwork either... again it's a survival state. So of course this approach requires a certain level of individual security that often isn't found in the Anxious/avoidant trap. But it's a beautiful way to resolve conflict in a relationship viable enough to support the approach.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 18, 2023 18:07:30 GMT
What helped me most as to actually know where I ended in space. It was a real eye opener to discover that I had numbed myself from knowing where I physically ended because as a child, I became enmeshed to my mom…and later, enmeshed with friends and partners. There was no separate “me” and “them”….so the above method would not have worked.
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Post by mysteryuser on Apr 19, 2023 14:07:41 GMT
I agree that kirrok 's suggestion sounds like a very helpful way to establish boundaries. However I also agree with @introvert in that it requires a certain level of acknowledgement about the validity of your own needs as tnr9 mentioned. I'm currently trying to internalize that both parties must have leeway in the relationship to not live up to every expectation of the partner, which I really struggled with. Given my childhood and the consistent parentification by my parents, I felt I had a 'responsibility' to live up to every expectation my partner had even if it left me exhausted and weak, and I inevitably 'failed' at meeting those expectations - so much so that my partner did not confide in/talk to anybody else for emotional support but me, and I was carrying the weight of his entire mental health. Even then, I didn't say a word and felt I had to do so to make him happy, but I couldn't, and he felt unsafe and left. Only once I fully internalize that I can have a healthy relationship and compromise on things without stretching myself thin will I be able to fully adopt that approach. I did speak to him about this after the breakup, and drew the analogy of all of his eggs being in my basket, and any mistake I made meant he would lose *everything*
I think what I struggle with however, especially coming from an Asian household where there is more of an emphasis on collectivism vs individualism, is balancing feeling selfish vs asserting my (in)ability to meet someone's expectations. I've accepted I will never get to a point of separation from my partner/family that a lot of western notions of individualism suggest, but I must also balance that with my own needs.
Something I found very interesting through a podcast was also stating your needs and presenting them as a choice so that it becomes less about them having to manage your emotions. For example, "I want a relationship where we resolve conflict by raising them as they come up instead of letting them fester, is this something you would prefer too? If so, what do you think will help us get there? I will try to do X, do you think you'd be able to do X too?". This way, it becomes more of a choice and decision on their part as opposed to them "having" to do something because you asked. And more importantly, if they are unable to do that, you don't internalize it -- it is their choice, not something you did.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 19, 2023 14:40:06 GMT
I agree that kirrok 's suggestion sounds like a very helpful way to establish boundaries. However I also agree with @introvert in that it requires a certain level of acknowledgement about the validity of your own needs as tnr9 mentioned. I'm currently trying to internalize that both parties must have leeway in the relationship to not live up to every expectation of the partner, which I really struggled with. Given my childhood and the consistent parentification by my parents, I felt I had a 'responsibility' to live up to every expectation my partner had even if it left me exhausted and weak, and I inevitably 'failed' at meeting those expectations - so much so that my partner did not confide in/talk to anybody else for emotional support but me, and I was carrying the weight of his entire mental health. Even then, I didn't say a word and felt I had to do so to make him happy, but I couldn't, and he felt unsafe and left. Only once I fully internalize that I can have a healthy relationship and compromise on things without stretching myself thin will I be able to fully adopt that approach. I did speak to him about this after the breakup, and drew the analogy of all of his eggs being in my basket, and any mistake I made meant he would lose *everything*
I think what I struggle with however, especially coming from an Asian household where there is more of an emphasis on collectivism vs individualism, is balancing feeling selfish vs asserting my (in)ability to meet someone's expectations. I've accepted I will never get to a point of separation from my partner/family that a lot of western notions of individualism suggest, but I must also balance that with my own needs.
Do you have any friends who come from a similar household that you believe handles the individual versus community dynamic well? It might be worth exploring that as you learn more about your own boundaries. Perhaps there are some good podcasts on the subject or videos or books. Culture can have a very large influence on our behavior, so it is good you notice the impact it has on you.
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Post by mysteryuser on Apr 19, 2023 16:58:12 GMT
Do you have any friends who come from a similar household that you believe handles the individual versus community dynamic well? It might be worth exploring that as you learn more about your own boundaries. Perhaps there are some good podcasts on the subject or videos or books. Culture can have a very large influence on our behavior, so it is good you notice the impact it has on you. I have spoken about this a bit with my Asian therapist but I'm relocating soon and on the lookout for a new one in the Boston area.
I'm sure I can find some resources and ask friends, and I'll do that in time - I only just realized some of this a few weeks ago!
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 19, 2023 17:21:50 GMT
Do you have any friends who come from a similar household that you believe handles the individual versus community dynamic well? It might be worth exploring that as you learn more about your own boundaries. Perhaps there are some good podcasts on the subject or videos or books. Culture can have a very large influence on our behavior, so it is good you notice the impact it has on you. I have spoken about this a bit with my Asian therapist but I'm relocating soon and on the lookout for a new one in the Boston area.
I'm sure I can find some resources and ask friends, and I'll do that in time - I only just realized some of this a few weeks ago! Good luck with your move. 🙂
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Post by alexandra on Apr 19, 2023 19:08:51 GMT
I think what I struggle with however, especially coming from an Asian household where there is more of an emphasis on collectivism vs individualism, is balancing feeling selfish vs asserting my (in)ability to meet someone's expectations. I've accepted I will never get to a point of separation from my partner/family that a lot of western notions of individualism suggest, but I must also balance that with my own needs. I agree that there are cultural influences and think you're right to keep exploring that space as part of your introspection. I want to add that this is a big struggle for all people with an anxious insecure side, though. It stems from inherent trust of others more than self and your needs coming second to other people, and also results in many AP and some anxious FA struggling with feeling emotions such as anger (sadness and self-blame is easier). With stronger boundaries, there are ways to be in touch with and true to your own needs while being empathetic and respectful to the collective needs and society around you. It's not a complete separation, but rather developing a healthy comfort with both independence and inter-dependence. So there may be more answers to this for you if you keep leaning into the security first because the attachment style issues are kind of the deepest layer down and then the culture is next layer up, and the deeper down you go, the easier it is to process everything on top of it as a natural extension. Even though the deeper you go is more painful and confusing to face, and none of this is easy by any means. We've had lots of people come through here of Asian backgrounds, and western too, and there's still a lot of commonality in the experience you're describing across the board. I also agree there's a lot of emphasis on individuality in western culture, and that can put certain avoidant and occasionally sociopathic traits on a pedestal (especially in business), so it's not necessarily healthy because there's not enough balance in the other direction from what you're describing. So it's not necessarily healthy to strive for that concept of "cultural ideal" of complete separation, either.
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Post by mysteryuser on Apr 20, 2023 23:56:11 GMT
I think what I struggle with however, especially coming from an Asian household where there is more of an emphasis on collectivism vs individualism, is balancing feeling selfish vs asserting my (in)ability to meet someone's expectations. I've accepted I will never get to a point of separation from my partner/family that a lot of western notions of individualism suggest, but I must also balance that with my own needs. I agree that there are cultural influences and think you're right to keep exploring that space as part of your introspection. I want to add that this is a big struggle for all people with an anxious insecure side, though. It stems from inherent trust of others more than self and your needs coming second to other people, and also results in many AP and some anxious FA struggling with feeling emotions such as anger (sadness and self-blame is easier). With stronger boundaries, there are ways to be in touch with and true to your own needs while being empathetic and respectful to the collective needs and society around you. It's not a complete separation, but rather developing a healthy comfort with both independence and inter-dependence. So there may be more answers to this for you if you keep leaning into the security first because the attachment style issues are kind of the deepest layer down and then the culture is next layer up, and the deeper down you go, the easier it is to process everything on top of it as a natural extension. Even though the deeper you go is more painful and confusing to face, and none of this is easy by any means. We've had lots of people come through here of Asian backgrounds, and western too, and there's still a lot of commonality in the experience you're describing across the board. I also agree there's a lot of emphasis on individuality in western culture, and that can put certain avoidant and occasionally sociopathic traits on a pedestal (especially in business), so it's not necessarily healthy because there's not enough balance in the other direction from what you're describing. So it's not necessarily healthy to strive for that concept of "cultural ideal" of complete separation, either. Oh I definitely agree that a lot of them are AP tendencies. I think what makes it harder though is the cultural notion that I should be acting a certain way and should be living up to certain expectations because for example, divorce carries a lot of social stigma in my country.
And I definitely also agree on the avoidant traits on a pedestal bit - I am happy to find the right balance. I don't want to completely separate, I want to find my own balance on that spectrum.
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