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Post by BreakingTheSpell on Dec 15, 2017 13:26:45 GMT
Being a FA myself, I struggle a lot with all sort of close relationships. But I do not give up!
I am learning to take distance from very close family members who behave verbally violent towards me, or that treat me as if I am the 10th option. I must admit my family is quite dysfunctional, there is avoidance everywhere, some narcissism as well and a big dose of psychological and verbal violence. I take distance by not engaging in the drama, that usually comes through text messages. They are all physically very far away from me, yet none of my parents and siblings have ever given me a call during the past year. But they are always online and available for some bit of mistreatment when they have a claim or an outburst of anxiety.
So, my romantic relationship, "S", ended in September, although it went downhill already in June. I noticed things were not feeling alright (=my needs were not being met but I did not know how to properly state them except by complaining). A friend of mine, "D", showed interest in me. From his place as a friend, "D" met all my emotional needs, that were being neglected from my boyfriend "S". So, I learnt, that I did not have to engage sexually with a guy to feel listened and understood, and valued. This enlarged the gap in my romantic relationship, and "S" finally withdrew emotionally and disappeared. This triggered my rejection/abandonment fear and hell was unleashed. It was clear things were not going well, but I never thought of breaking up, all the time I came up with conversations to find a middle ground, to work on our differences.
It has been 3 months from that hell. No contact. My anxiety has lowered, my anguish is vanishing. I still think of "S" every day, and I miss talking to him, but couldn't stand hearing about a new flame, so I do no contact him because of this.
"D", who met my emotional needs when I was "starving", has been around. I came clean and told him about how messed up I am when it comes to relationships, how I am discovering where this is rooted, how it is affecting my relationship with my parents, and how it triggers anxiety moments where I feel rejected and unloved. He stood by me during the worst times. And then, I asked "D" to step aside, because I did not want to fall into his arms just because he was my parachute during my worst times. He agreed that I had to get on my feet first. So we did not get involved, and avoided seeing each other for about 2 months (Oct-Nov), and we have met again a couple of times during the last 3 weeks. We have been out on dates, he always picks me up and walks me home (what a difference from "S" who was all about independence and autonomy). With so much sudden self awareness I am a bit overwhelmed and don't know how to initiate a relationship with somebody who is clearly interested. I am afraid of missing red flags again. I enjoy the huge attention I get from "D". I cannot judge if he is a secure type or an anxious. I may be confusing attention with anxiety.
The avoidant side of my FA style starts to show up: when "D" comes too close, I sabotage the moment. I do not believe he is genuinely interested, I start thinking that he sees me as his trophee. "D" has the word "commitment" written all over his face. I find myself fantasizing about how our kids would look like (yeap!! my anxious tendencies show up here too) and we are not even in a relationship yet! I do not know how to stop the fantasies. And, what is worse, I do not feel "free" to choose him, as long as "S" is still in my mind, which he is. What a mess. Whoever in this forum wrote that we FAs have a "3rd degree burn but want to be hugged", is somewhat right. Still, I am a person who is alive and I have feelings. I will not pity myself for this attachment style of mine, I would rather learn and work on my wrongdoings. My psychologist helps, but it goes so slow.
So, how can I spot if "D" is showing his affection because he is genuinely interested or if he is calming down his own anxiety for a relationship? He is 28 and has only had one relationship, but would marry me tomorrow, according to him. He loves me and all my mess, and he also has the manual on how to calm me down, how to react when I push him away, what to say to feel valued. I sat down with him and "wrote" such manual for him, and he usually finds the right "troubleshooting strategy". I am 6 years his senior and surely do not want to waste my time because I want kids at some point. How do I take the precautions not to "fall" again? It certainly feels good to be accepted for who you are, good and bad, which I never had in my childhood.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 15, 2017 13:52:16 GMT
First..I want to commend you on your bravery with posting this and say congratulations for the self awareness that you have achieved.
Wanting to marry you...even having not truly dated yet could be a bit of AP. In general, as an AP, I bond extremely quickly because my activated attachment style tells me "he is the one"....however...without really understanding more about him and your friendship with him...it is a bit premature to label that as AP.
I cannot really guide you because, being AP...my suggestions would come from an AP perspective...take it slow, be mindful of your needs, be aware of any instances where you are triggered/your attachment system goes into high alert.....I think FA may have some AP strategies/coping mechanisms...but I don't want to lead you down a road that I need to employ but perhaps you do not.
In any event...he sounds like a nice guy...apart from being a bit rushed in his timeline. I am glad to hear that someone is finally seeing you and embracing you for who you are. Please keep us posted.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 15:06:43 GMT
comeheregoaway, I am not sure if it will be helpful for you to label him as anything this early as long as it's working for you. I think sometimes labels seem to be helpful, but they can also harm if you are always looking for signs of this or that and not letting the relationship develop naturally. I am not sure I have anything useful to say as FAs have always confused me even though I am avoidant. FAs have seemed to me to have some anxious tendencies as well as avoidant. I think needs and boundaries are important to figure out in the beginning. If you feel triggered often in the beginning of a relationship, it could be a warning sign that they need to be aligned more. If you feel a sense of calm with the person, it could mean needs and boundaries are well matched.
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Post by yasmin on Dec 15, 2017 17:20:19 GMT
Do you like "D" and find him attractive, comeheregoaway? I know you've said he fulfils your needs and you are not sure he is genuine but do you know what your own feelings are about him? All you really need to know is if it's worth a try. Try not to think too far down the road about kids and the future because that might trigger you and cause you to sabotage. Can you try and take it day by day? I found with my FA that he was always worrying / catastrophising a fictional breakup 5 years down the road (he did this from date 3 and I was wondering WTH he was talking about!), which caused him to not try in the first place. He also said I has commitment written all over my face! That's when your own behaviors can be sabotaging your own chances at happiness. It's a risk trying a relationship, but it's also a risk NOT trying if that makes sense. As for the "red flags" and all that, I think this is such a tough thing to get right because people will say online or in self-help books that lots of things are red flags and my own experience is that each case is individual. For example being charming and full-on is considered a red-flag for a narcissistic or abusive person but it's also what sometimes happens when people just REALLY like you and are open with their feelings. So I think maybe you have to take it slow with people and after 3 - 6 months they slowly unravel their real character. I am a secure and I STILL always find it very difficult to know if someone is right for me or a good person or genuine. It's not easy when you can't read minds, but I do find people always show you who they are. I think "D" is genuinely interested from what you've said here. My FA accused me of only wanting him because he was a "project" or a challenge and he just could not see /accept that I really liked him and wanted to be with him for himself. I can only tell you that from being in "D"s shoes that I did really, really, really like him - even with all the mess he was better than anyone else I knew and I really wanted the relationship. Sometimes people just like you! It usually shows in their behavior and consistency but remember you don't have to be perfect for people to like or love you. Sometimes they just do. Fantasising is normal I think  This is part of the excitement and hopes and dreams that tie in when we meet someone we think we might like or love but if those fantasies are freaking you out, just remember they're all in your head and not from any pressure "D" is putting on you. Don't punish him for the work of your imagination  Trying a relationship I guess just means doing stuff with him slowly. If he's a right match for you, he's going to be there and keep trying. If you can explain maybe a little to him then that will really help. I also think though that whether secure, DA or anything else, rushing into relationships after a painful breakup can be bad timing. Wishing you good luck with this, you seem like such a great person from your posts that I am sorry to hear you don't feel the faith in "D". From a strangers perspective you come across as emotionally intelligent, kind, interesting and also one of those people who wants to do the right thing. Great qualities! A lot of people are going to fall in love with that |
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Post by BreakingTheSpell on Dec 16, 2017 16:55:46 GMT
Thank you tnr9 , @mary and yasmin for your answers. I guess you all all right in that I may be labeling and looking for signs too soon. It could be the aftershock of having ignored very obvious red flags with "S". Elaborating on what you ask yasmin , I do find "D" atractive. So far I have not developed any feelings beyond the friendship, and I am also very careful not to say anything that I do not mean, so that he can always know where he is standing. Yes, I feel calm when he is around. In the midst of my break up with "S", I had some anxiety attacks with lots of crying out loud. I would call "D" on the phone and when he arrived to my place, he would stay by my side and hold me while I wept, always saying "I am here, I am not going anywhere". This is what I needed to hear, I wish I had heard it from "S", but hearing it from "D" also worked to quench my fear of abandonment. He is reassuring. I can clearly see one of my distancing strategies with "D". I cannot help to compare him with "S" all the time. This is so cruel. Fu**** distancing strategy. You are right, sometimes people just like you in spite of all the imperfections. |
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Post by yasmin on Dec 16, 2017 19:21:40 GMT
What came across when I was reading that is how hard it must be to know what is "distancing" and what is how you actually feel?! I mean, sometimes you just don't find someone attractive or feel romantic feelings for a person (even if they are fantastic!) so it must be hard sometimes to distinguish?
If this helps at all, I'll give you my experience of dating and how my feelings and thoughts usually progress.
When I meet someone I usually know right away if I find them sexually attractive, although sometimes this grows after a friendship that has been quite a rare occurrence (once or twice in 25 years of dating). I also usually know whether I generally "like" them and feel a spark or chemistry. I also usually know if they fit the general profile of a logically good match for me (right age bracket etc). So if I find someone attractive AND feel the mental spark / chemistry AND there are no "practical" reasons they would be a bad match then I this is the point I might want to date them if it feels right. From there, I date them and over a few dates I either begin to like them more, or I begin to like them less. I don't feel confusion or indecision or anxiety; it just unfolds that their character / personality is not one I like that much on closer examination or I feel that my romantic feelings are just not there. Usually if I feel both an emotional connection for someone and a very strong sexual chemistry for me that is what makes me want to date them because the two go hand-in-hand.
I think maybe this differs from what the avoidant experience of "distancing" (I am just basing this on stuff I have read so please correct me...)
1. If I decide I don't want to date someone anymore, I don't want them back 2 weeks or 2 months later.
2. If I don't like someone or find them attractive, I just know this and it doesn't fluctuate or come and go.
3. If I do see "flaws" or "turn offs" in people I am dating, this is always because of new things I am discovering. I never find myself turned off by things I knew about all along.
4. If I begin to get emotionally intimate with someone I am dating, for me this feels wonderful and it makes me want to pull closer and enjoy it. I don't feel any anxiety or doubts about it, it just feels great and exciting.
5. If I like somebody romantically, I tend to focus on their positive points (actually I notice I do this with friends too) so I am never criticising their imperfections I am just noticing all the great things about them and appreciating them.
6. If I feel a desire to have sex with, kiss, hold hands with someone - for me this is a definitely indication that it's NOT a platonic relationship and that my feelings are much deeper which is how I differentiate.
7. I feel like the bond /attraction /intimacy is something that slowly builds and escalates in an upwards gradient - it's extremely rare for me to start of thinking someone is amazing and being really into it and suddenly finding my feelings changing without a clear reason or for this to fluctuate.
8. If I walk away from someone, I don't miss them or want them back! I just hope they are happy and never think of them again.
9. If I want to stop dating someone, I explain why and we end things - I don't disappear or behave strangely or feel any anxiety or ambivalence.
So I mean it's usually straight forward rather than something I feel confused or anxious about.
The point of this is really to ask if there's some way for you to distinguish between distancing and just not feeling romantically towards someone then maybe it can help to control it from sabotaging you? For example: If you're dating someone and they get really angry at a waiter and screamm it's "normal" to be turned off and like that person less because they are being a jerk. If you're dating someone and you have the most wonderful date and the next day you feel trapped or like ignoring them for a week, this is probably not so "normal" and the difference is maybe in the logic of it?
Maybe that is over simplifying it, as of course I understand from what I have read here that the "distancing" can really make you feel repelled by someone, which I am trying to understand by reading these forums.
My experience with dating an FA was really just how illogical the whole thing was, which I think is what made me so upset and crazy about it because I have dated guys before who were players or who just "weren't that into me" and this guy seemed really into me on every level, but he also behaved in every possible destructive way to get me to go away; only to regret it and want me to come back. This is very different from just not liking someone, so this is why the forums are helping me to work through this.
If you're at least here, and mindful that you have distancing behaviors it really puts you into a lot more control.
xx
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Post by BreakingTheSpell on Feb 2, 2018 13:42:05 GMT
Probably this post belongs in Support for FA now, but I started here and want to write on the same thread.
It has been almost 2 months since I wrote this first post up here, where I described how I had started seeing somebody new, 3 months after my break up. 3 months was perhaps too short, and I still believe it is. Having somebody providing constant attention, care and reassurance, without asking for anything in return, and not getting mad when I didnt reciprocate, was a beautiful offer and I took it. I am very honest with "D", so he knows where he is standing.
We have gotten more involved ever since, we do romantic things together and plan activities as a couple. I still do not want to acknowledge the couple in front of our friends. I can already feel the pressure. I do not like the pressure. But I guess the main reason why I do not let myself enter a proper relationship with him, is because I feel like I am betraying him all of the time.
THe truth is, I am pinning for my ex, "S". I miss him, and I dont know what I miss. Perhaps those 3-4 days a month in which he treated me like a queen. Perhaps I am blaming myself for not being good enough for him. I actually do not like myself so much. Of course he was not going to like me either! I am pissed at myself that I couldnt hide this better. This is where the biggest part of my work needs to happen. I am aware of it. But still, the break up happened while I was still in the dark.
I am depleted. I have nothing to give to "D". He knows it. He still stays. I hope I can find something in my heart in some time. I feel so horrible, I feel so unloving. I would take "S" back in a heartbeat. But he wont show up in my life again "I hope that in the future, with a little distance, we can still be friends, but I will respect your decision if you dont want to". I have not contacted him back. Absolute no contact. I do it for myself, not to feel the rejection that will happen if I contact him. I gave everything, but did it wrong. I gave to receive, and after months and months of crumbles, I wanted to force something out of him. I tried to manipulate him, he did not let me. He broke up. I dont know how to be different. I have hurt him, I said I was sorry many times for trying to manipulate him. He was unflexible. He is avoidant but played the secure card on this. He acted very securely but very unloving too. No second chances, no compassion, no forgiveness. I fucked up, I made a mistake, put me in a situation where I needed lots of support (that I will not describe here) and he left on that moment.
It was very hard for me. Only "D" was by my side. It is still hard for me, and "D" is still by my side. I wish it was "S". How will I ever overcome his absence? I am always comparing him to "D". I need a more pragmatic approach on life, and a less romantic one.
Today is not a good day. There are tears everywhere.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 15:36:31 GMT
I am sorry you are feeling this way. It sounds like you are heartbroken over S and you haven't resolved that yet. In your brain, you want to give your heart again, but your heart isn't ready. You have to heal before trying again? I think D provided you support when you needed it, but it doesn't mean that you are ready to give back.
Perhaps you miss the volatility of your last relationship and not the person, I don't know. I am realizing that I have chased feelings, good or bad, just to FEEL something. I am in a similar space of do I miss the relationship or do I miss the person? It's not the same thing.
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Post by yasmin on Feb 2, 2018 20:15:56 GMT
You are such an honest person comeheregoaway, I love reading anything you write.
I agree with Mary partially because it's not a very long time to grieve a breakup and in that space it is hard to reciprocate feelings, which I think is what "rebound" relationships are about because that person does give you the love without expecting anything back and we are all just human so this feels good.
From an attachment perspective though...
You're insightful here, so when you delve into the FA system and look at what the payoff is for relationships which are hurting you / not fully making you happy; I think the answer is validation. There's this space where someone is testing you, making you feel loved intermittently but not quite good enough and what you might crave is the validation, rather than the actual person. "D"s validation is meaningless because it is given freely. "S"s validation means the world because it is just out of reach. The craving is I think, for the validation and not the person. The desire is more anxiety than real love. And in that space where something is ever just so out of reach, the FA can allow their most romantic, idealistic side to exist because it never becomes real and therefore never gets body slammed by their brain. I think this is the premise of the fantasy ex or the longing for "the one" who never materialises.
the object of love, to build mutually satisfying connections with another human being, is what you truly find in the "D"s of this world. Not to say that you have to love every D, but just that these types of relationships which don't require anxiety or confusion are the essence of love.
I also think self-esteem plays into it. If you don't love yourself, the "nice guys" are less appealing. You are going to subconsciously question why nice guys would like you. You'll feel like them liking you is a sign of there being something wrong with them or of them being less desirable or valuable. Meaning, maybe feeling actually lovable inside is a pre-requisite of seeing the value in someone who loves you. Otherwise, I suppose, the ones that don't like you are always going to seem better and more attractive than the ones that do. And who wants to end up growing old with someone who doesn’t like them or messes them around? Surely the person who sees how special you are and who makes you happy is the person you need to be with!
I think some of this is the mental process and desire system of the FA. It's so hard, because these feelings are very real and even acknowledging them doesn't change what your heart feels and desires. I think the only solution is therapy, finding self-love, working through the feelings of avoidance to question...what kind of relationship do I want? With what kind of person? And remain always in the moment.
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Post by Jaeger on Feb 3, 2018 2:01:12 GMT
"Throughout my time working with people and hearing about their relationships, I have uncovered an interesting belief or thought. This belief is that a stable and secure attachment is too boring, and it is almost so still and secure that some find it uncomfortable. My initial reaction was shock, thinking to myself “really?!” But then I began to understand; divorce, parental conflict, unhealthy relationships, and the media have affected many of our lives. Stillness and security is not as familiar to us as painful experiences and disconnection. BUT, for those of you who want this security and sense of connection that I am describing, it is not beyond your reach. It will certainly take some time and effort to reprogram some of our closely held beliefs and way of seeing things, but it can be done. I personally believe that is starts with working on you first. Working towards what I (and my biggest idol Brene Brown) would describe as wholehearted living." the-love-compass.com/2013/10/26/the-secure-attachment-style/ |
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Post by BreakingTheSpell on Feb 3, 2018 22:24:03 GMT
yasmin , You have a gift for words. The way you read between the lines and articulate feelings, the empathy you show towards other people's situations, makes me think of how emotionally intelligent you are. As for the content of your reply, you nailed it. I am reading it over and over again, together with your other description of "FAs pattern in relationships". When I understand things, my anxiety drops. I have this rational coping mechanism. I am back on my feet today, and the day started well when I woke up to your post this morning. A big thank you for the time you took. When I noticed the crumbs I was getting from "S", I tried to manipulate him to get more out of him, since he wouldnt give it freely, no matter how much I asked for more. It was my sort of "rebellion" against his selfishness. When he didnt give in to my ultimatum and I didnt get what I wanted, I "lost my rebellion" and was flooded with anger, for not getting anything from him and for loosing my attempts to force things out of him. And then for loosing him. This is how I felt depleted... the balance was never restored, I didnt get anything out and I lost an entire year of my time, which is the most valuable resource I have.
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Post by yasmin on Feb 3, 2018 22:59:04 GMT
yasmin , You have a gift for words. The way you read between the lines and articulate feelings, the empathy you show towards other people's situations, makes me think of how emotionally intelligent you are. As for the content of your reply, you nailed it. I am reading it over and over again, together with your other description of "FAs pattern in relationships". When I understand things, my anxiety drops. I have this rational coping mechanism. I am back on my feet today, and the day started well when I woke up to your post this morning. A big thank you for the time you took. When I noticed the crumbs I was getting from "S", I tried to manipulate him to get more out of him, since he wouldnt give it freely, no matter how much I asked for more. It was my sort of "rebellion" against his selfishness. When he didnt give in to my ultimatum and I didnt get what I wanted, I "lost my rebellion" and was flooded with anger, for not getting anything from him and for loosing my attempts to force things out of him. And then for loosing him. This is how I felt depleted... the balance was never restored, I didnt get anything out and I lost an entire year of my time, which is the most valuable resource I have. Such lovely things to say, thank you and I am glad my post helped. I have been there with the crumbs and feeling the anxiety and stopping to manipulation. It's a battle. Just try and remember this is your attachment style talking, it's the little scared kid inside you talking and NOT "love". I don't think this is what love really is, and I am sure you don't either. |
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This is part of the excitement and hopes and dreams that tie in when we meet someone we think we might like or love but if those fantasies are freaking you out, just remember they're all in your head and not from any pressure "D" is putting on you. Don't punish him for the work of your imagination 
