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Post by mrob on May 4, 2023 1:32:10 GMT
This realisation isn’t only a result of right here, right now. My mother acquiesced, the woman that got me here did the same, which was a real surprise, then the last three women I’ve dated it’s come out. So, it’s no fad. What did your mom acquiesce to? What did the woman who got you here do? And in the last 3 women you dated, what came out? Sorry just not clear. A yearning for, then settling into the traditional masculine/feminine roles, as you’re seeking to do. |
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Post by seeking on May 4, 2023 1:36:59 GMT
What did your mom acquiesce to? What did the woman who got you here do? And in the last 3 women you dated, what came out? Sorry just not clear. A yearning for, then settling into the traditional masculine/feminine roles, as you’re seeking to do. Are you feeling betrayed by that? Sorry, I feel like I missed something about this. Was there a kind of illusion as to them wanting something different? |
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Post by mrob on May 4, 2023 1:48:50 GMT
mrob personally I absolutely do not get the masculine / feminine energy thing at all. I don't think traditional masculinity is universally appealing to women. To me, it is weird and archaic. I do not want to be treated as subservient to my partner, which is what it seems like it would mean. I also associate traditional masculinity with emotional unavailability (huge turnoff). I guess the ultimate appeal of this for women is being taken care of? Can't men contribute to a relationship and be nurturing without being traditionally masculine? I always thought that contribution was the idea. I also thought that was one expression of being taken care of. What I found in practice was that we were both trying to do the same things, in different ways which would result in conflict. It could be chores, it could be parenting. No one person having veto, so it ends up being like a government department with no decisions being made, then resentment when the load of decision making absolutely has to be borne. I feel very sad for boys, particularly this little one. What a terrible waste. |
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Post by mrob on May 4, 2023 2:06:33 GMT
A yearning for, then settling into the traditional masculine/feminine roles, as you’re seeking to do. Are you feeling betrayed by that? Sorry, I feel like I missed something about this. Was there a kind of illusion as to them wanting something different? More than 60 years of a quest for equality suggests so. Think of everything you’ve done. Would it have been possible for a woman 60 years ago on her own? I’d say not. You’ve gained from that quest and now you decide you want to be taken care of? While I’m absolutely aware the freedom is in the choice, to suddenly want that now and expect it to come, and at no loss, is a bit rich, to say the least. My goodness. What a rough morning. This all feels so misogynistic. It’s not how it’s meant to come across. |
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Post by alexandra on May 4, 2023 2:39:30 GMT
I agree with all you said, except I can't seem to get over the weird part. I am stuck there. It's either an "excuse" for avoidance or ... but I think it really is that he's odd. And I have tried to dismiss his oddness over and over and can't. As far as what you're describing here, though, it makes me sound rather FA, I think, right? I am fine with that b/c I'm pretty sure I am. I think the first part about the stuck in weird is you not trusting your instincts plus you not being able to separate what's weird to you from not because you had to deal with a lot of traits you were uncomfortable with from your prior attachment figures. So you suppressed your instincts that might have "stay away from this person" and tried to make it work with your ex, with difficult family members, etc. Which makes it hard to listen to your gut and instinct because you can't tell if it's telling you you're uncomfortable with good reason, or if it's avoidance of someone who could be a good fit which then feels unfamiliar to you. At least, that's my opinion from all I've read of your posts. But the fact you've not wanted to meet him for a year speaks volumes about what you want... I think you aren't comfortable with him for whatever reason or you'd have wanted to meet him months ago and followed through. It's perfectly fine if you think he's weird in a way that doesn't work for you, and so you want to let the contact go. So, look at your actions over a prolonged period of time here if you don't trust or know how to listen to your instinct, because it's telling you in actions how you feel about it. And yes, to the second part of what I quoted above combined from your two posts, it's FA. Letting him off easy by saying you're going to be too busy to write should be enough. You may get another couple messages from him over time but then you don't need to answer those, and you won't owe him anything further (even if he does choose to write again after you've said you're not going to have time to answer). |
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Post by anne12 on May 4, 2023 3:00:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2023 4:58:21 GMT
mrob personally I absolutely do not get the masculine / feminine energy thing at all. I don't think traditional masculinity is universally appealing to women. To me, it is weird and archaic. I do not want to be treated as subservient to my partner, which is what it seems like it would mean. I also associate traditional masculinity with emotional unavailability (huge turnoff). I guess the ultimate appeal of this for women is being taken care of? Can't men contribute to a relationship and be nurturing without being traditionally masculine? I must be missing something, and if traditionally masculine means unavailable and needing a subservient partner, I misspoke earlier. My partner is very masculine and is skilled in traditionally masculine pursuits, so he brings those skills to the relationship in a way that I value tremendously. He is a provider in that he has a well established career as an entrepreneur, so he has financial means to offer support if needed, but I am not in any way dependent except when it comes to things like auto repairs which ultimately I could pay someone to do as I can't do it myself . I am in no way subservient. I am not dependent. I don't think femininity means that you should be... I am skilled in traditionally feminine roles in the home which makes sense as I raised children for years, stayed home with them nursing and raising them until I had to go to work and they were old enough to not need that level of care. I agree with tnr9 that it's about what each partner has to offer, and it's a great fit when two people can offer different things that make the way smooth. We conplment each other really well with our roles. Its healthy interdependence. Not dependence, not subservience. So I get the attraction to someone who has something different to offer than yourself. Life is full of practical needs and challenges and when you have two bodies taking care of it all, life is smoother, more enjoyable, less stressful ... not to mention that helping someone with their burdens is a fantastic way to show love and care. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2023 5:05:27 GMT
As to what to say, I am confused about why you wouldn't just be truthful? No need to be hurtful or embellish. Simple and true.
"I am finding it uncomfortable to continue corresponding, as I don't believe our connection can lead to what I'm looking for. I do wish you the best, but would like to cease our correspondence so we each can pursue what appeals to us most. Take care!"
It's clear, honest, and not unkind. Is there a reason it would be undesirable to express it this way?
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Post by iz42 on May 4, 2023 17:12:59 GMT
mrob personally I absolutely do not get the masculine / feminine energy thing at all. I don't think traditional masculinity is universally appealing to women. To me, it is weird and archaic. I do not want to be treated as subservient to my partner, which is what it seems like it would mean. I also associate traditional masculinity with emotional unavailability (huge turnoff). I guess the ultimate appeal of this for women is being taken care of? Can't men contribute to a relationship and be nurturing without being traditionally masculine? I must be missing something, and if traditionally masculine means unavailable and needing a subservient partner, I misspoke earlier. My partner is very masculine and is skilled in traditionally masculine pursuits, so he brings those skills to the relationship in a way that I value tremendously. He is a provider in that he has a well established career as an entrepreneur, so he has financial means to offer support if needed, but I am not in any way dependent except when it comes to things like auto repairs which ultimately I could pay someone to do as I can't do it myself . I am in no way subservient. I am not dependent. I don't think femininity means that you should be... I am skilled in traditionally feminine roles in the home which makes sense as I raised children for years, stayed home with them nursing and raising them until I had to go to work and they were old enough to not need that level of care. I agree with tnr9 that it's about what each partner has to offer, and it's a great fit when two people can offer different things that make the way smooth. We conplment each other really well with our roles. Its healthy interdependence. Not dependence, not subservience. So I get the attraction to someone who has something different to offer than yourself. Life is full of practical needs and challenges and when you have two bodies taking care of it all, life is smoother, more enjoyable, less stressful ... not to mention that helping someone with their burdens is a fantastic way to show love and care. This makes sense. I think it can difficult to decouple images of masculine/feminine roles from the associations that they have carried over time, including deeply embedded beliefs about women needing to be submissive, that influenced the way that these roles developed. In some circles, there is a desire to bring back those old ways of relating -- including women playing a subservient role to men. I see how we can try to disentangle the roles themselves from their prior associations, but I start to get confused when we do that without acknowledging this history. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2023 17:15:06 GMT
It probably doesn't matter much, but I do feel like he'd be pretty surprised if I just up and disappeared. He doesn't seem to have a clear read on the situation - i.e., keeps pursuing despite my making no attempt to meet. I just want to put the guy out of his misery at this point, but not sure how to say it. But I guess saying "Good luck with your visits. I'm going to be focusing on a, b, c and may not have time to write for the foreseeable future." But I guess I can leave it at that? I've not written back before, and inevitably I still get an email. He's a nice enough guy that I feel like he deserves something in the way of my intention being clear. I think this is a cop out, though. If your intention is to end the connection, and you recognize that you engaged for unhealthy reasons, why not just admit that and apologize, and wish him well? He didn't email for a year in a vacuum, you two both created this strange scenario and in my opinion the way toward relationship security is accountability. The guy is being portrayed as a dork, an annoyance, somehow obtuse, as if he's carried on for a year with no encouragement. If you're going to make a break that's healthy, I don't think it needs a major announcement in terms of making a big story... just simple accountability and respect even if you think he's odd. Your part in this is a little odd too, which you seem to see based on your confusion about why you kept this going. Pride gets in the way of authenticity sometimes but this is a chance to be ok admitting you went at something a bit sideways and now would like to correct your course. |
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Post by seeking on May 4, 2023 18:44:29 GMT
It probably doesn't matter much, but I do feel like he'd be pretty surprised if I just up and disappeared. He doesn't seem to have a clear read on the situation - i.e., keeps pursuing despite my making no attempt to meet. I just want to put the guy out of his misery at this point, but not sure how to say it. But I guess saying "Good luck with your visits. I'm going to be focusing on a, b, c and may not have time to write for the foreseeable future." But I guess I can leave it at that? I've not written back before, and inevitably I still get an email. He's a nice enough guy that I feel like he deserves something in the way of my intention being clear. I think this is a cop out, though. If your intention is to end the connection, and you recognize that you engaged for unhealthy reasons, why not just admit that and apologize, and wish him well? He didn't email for a year in a vacuum, you two both created this strange scenario and in my opinion the way toward relationship security is accountability. The guy is being portrayed as a dork, an annoyance, somehow obtuse, as if he's carried on for a year with no encouragement. If you're going to make a break that's healthy, I don't think it needs a major announcement in terms of making a big story... just simple accountability and respect even if you think he's odd. Your part in this is a little odd too, which you seem to see based on your confusion about why you kept this going. Pride gets in the way of authenticity sometimes but this is a chance to be ok admitting you went at something a bit sideways and now would like to correct your course. It's not intended to be a cop-out. I think you assign me a lot of "knowing what I'm doing" for lack of a better way of putting it. I'm pretty neurodivergent when it comes to it - and I largely think that neurodivergence was born out of trauma. I'm not in any way saying that to excuse behavior or request some kind of sympathy - or as a victim - more as a clarification that this stuff gets VERY confusing to me and VERY overwhelming. That's why I'm here asking for support. If my part was odd, that's because it is. That's how I roll. Who I am. Him too. So both of us here fumbling and now I'm trying to sort out what to do. My response -- before asking you guys -- would have been something like: Hey, I'm going to pass on a get-together for now. I am busy attending to some healing and big shifts in our world. And, as I've said before, looking more for an interpersonal connection than in a place to show off my life in some way-- the homeschool community didn't work out. I think community can be a wonderful thing and also a complex thing. I'm glad to hear there are others out there forging ahead with their big plans despite all the world has become. I'm still trying to figure things out. But I hope you enjoy your trips. Keep writing poetry and good luck with the garden." I'm not saying this is OKAY or the right thing. But it's where I'm at. I read into it a little bit of wanting him to change. I read into it a little bit of a victim (on my part). I also read into it genuineness and authenticity. But I don't trust it as a response, don't fully trust myself in this whole situation and am trying to learn from it. |
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Post by lovebunny on May 4, 2023 20:06:33 GMT
"Hey, I'm going to pass on a get-together for now. I am busy attending to some healing and big shifts in our world. The homeschool community didn't work out. I think community can be a wonderful thing and also a complex thing. But I hope you enjoy your trips. Keep writing poetry and good luck with the garden."
I edited out a couple of the more biting remarks, and it works quite fine as a polite but honest dip-out (not a cop-out.)
I don't feel you owe more. You were pen pals, basically.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2023 20:09:35 GMT
I think this is a cop out, though. If your intention is to end the connection, and you recognize that you engaged for unhealthy reasons, why not just admit that and apologize, and wish him well? He didn't email for a year in a vacuum, you two both created this strange scenario and in my opinion the way toward relationship security is accountability. The guy is being portrayed as a dork, an annoyance, somehow obtuse, as if he's carried on for a year with no encouragement. If you're going to make a break that's healthy, I don't think it needs a major announcement in terms of making a big story... just simple accountability and respect even if you think he's odd. Your part in this is a little odd too, which you seem to see based on your confusion about why you kept this going. Pride gets in the way of authenticity sometimes but this is a chance to be ok admitting you went at something a bit sideways and now would like to correct your course. It's not intended to be a cop-out. I think you assign me a lot of "knowing what I'm doing" for lack of a better way of putting it. I'm pretty neurodivergent when it comes to it - and I largely think that neurodivergence was born out of trauma. I'm not in any way saying that to excuse behavior or request some kind of sympathy - or as a victim - more as a clarification that this stuff gets VERY confusing to me and VERY overwhelming. That's why I'm here asking for support. If my part was odd, that's because it is. That's how I roll. Who I am. Him too. So both of us here fumbling and now I'm trying to sort out what to do. My response -- before asking you guys -- would have been something like: Hey, I'm going to pass on a get-together for now. I am busy attending to some healing and big shifts in our world. And, as I've said before, looking more for an interpersonal connection than in a place to show off my life in some way-- the homeschool community didn't work out. I think community can be a wonderful thing and also a complex thing. I'm glad to hear there are others out there forging ahead with their big plans despite all the world has become. I'm still trying to figure things out. But I hope you enjoy your trips. Keep writing poetry and good luck with the garden." I'm not saying this is OKAY or the right thing. But it's where I'm at. I read into it a little bit of wanting him to change. I read into it a little bit of a victim (on my part). I also read into it genuineness and authenticity. But I don't trust it as a response, don't fully trust myself in this whole situation and am trying to learn from it. , you are incorrect in that I am not assigning anything to you, neither awareness nor intention or anything else. I am acknowledging what YOU are acknowledging. There's no shame, blame, victim ideas, nothing. I'm advocating for authenticity as a route to accountability. I am quirky. I have made a practice of just being authentic. When I am confused I say I am confused. When I misunderstood something, I say I misunderstood something. It's pure recognition and nothing else. I am simply saying, if you recognize that your behavior was odd, confused, well meaning but misguided, whatever, why not just say so to him as you are able to say to us? I have done that many times myself so I'm not talking down to you, or assigning anything. It is what it is, and acknowledging that you two got weird together is totally fair. All insecure people act in confusion, unawareness, misunderstanding... not just neurodivergent people. Insecure behavior can be quite odd in and of itself. My approach is call it like you see it in yourself, and it doesn't have to be self-blaming or shaming. I'm not even suggesting that you go into some detailed confession, it's just simple. I've told individuals that I approached a situation with a lack of clarity and have found that I need to change direction, too. It's ok to just say so and move on. I am not insisting that you do that, of course, its your deal. I'm just offering an avenue that's genuine and harmless and honest. I wouldn't suggest it if I hadn't tried it and found it to be helpful. |
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Post by seeking on May 4, 2023 20:14:36 GMT
I think the first part about the stuck in weird is you not trusting your instincts plus you not being able to separate what's weird to you from not because you had to deal with a lot of traits you were uncomfortable with from your prior attachment figures. So you suppressed your instincts that might have "stay away from this person" and tried to make it work with your ex, with difficult family members, etc. Which makes it hard to listen to your gut and instinct because you can't tell if it's telling you you're uncomfortable with good reason, or if it's avoidance of someone who could be a good fit which then feels unfamiliar to you. At least, that's my opinion from all I've read of your posts. Thank you. This feels incredibly validating and made me cry, actually. Because it's so true. I'm really just trying not to bypass. Plus he was just a really nice guy. And I have it in my brain to find a really nice guy without drama/toxic-traits, etc. Except then I don't allow myself to have other preferences. It's black and white. Nice guy means something must be wrong with me if I'm not all over that. Instead of nice guy and I just don't see us getting along (rather than Oh, that must mean I'm unavailable and avoidant in some way). It is still confusing, but my work in therapy right now is to stop "exiling" parts of myself. I had a major panic attack with my ex when we were dating. I kept talking myself out of it - giving him the power, making myself wrong. Making myself wrong has basically been my "MO" for life. Every day is a work in progress of being okay with me. Of being okay with wanting this over that, and not wanting that and letting that be okay. Another example, unrelated to men - I paid for my daughter to go to a ball. She's a bit of a diva and I thought she'd LOVE going. We got all the fixings - shoes, accessories. I wanted her to have this. But in the end, it cost me A LOT - not to mention energetically.. I had to take off work early, drive by myself. It's late tonight, stay there with nowhere to go- work tomorrow. Huge sacrifice. She ended up sick. I thought she'd be devastated, but instead she's like "Yeah, I just like the dressing up part, not sure I really wanted to go." I was in awe of that. That she knew herself enough and was honest and not bypassing and pushing herself .... There's supposed to be 350 teens there (it's tonight) and she is totally freaked out by that. I've gone around in circle agonizing over this for DAYS -- the girl she was going with will have her brother there. It's fine. Everything is fine. Life will go on. I almost even pushed through us being sick. But in the end we're hanging out right now and I'm going to take a nap and make some dinner and we'll have our nightly family walk like we always do and miss the ball. There will be one next year. My daughter was like "Maybe it's for a reason." I just want to eventually be someone to myself who is okay with my choices and actions. Rather than constantly second guessing them, beating myself up, questioning, pushing through. Now, even my 13 yo is on to me. I keep going back over what happened with our homeschool community, and she's like, "Mom. get over it. It's done. Those people were crazy." I guess I have a lot to learn from her! Like they say, how you do one thing is how you do everything and this just shows up everywhere for me. And it got played out with this guy. Oh, he's nice. Just push through. Overlook a, b, c, don't be so hard on him. Go ahead and meet him. What's the big deal. Just do it - meanwhile everything in me was like "nope," but I have a great way of really dragging myself into things I don't want . . . . and so when I finally said, "I'm done!" even though there's a year's worth of nuttiness, I think that was healing for me. To say, finally, "this isn't for me." I do have terror I'll end up alone. Or my daughter will have no friends. Or because we couldn't go tonight, she'll miss some amazing thing. Or no one will invite us anywhere, etc. But I realize that is just a "part" of me that lives in scarcity, fear, and "not enough" land. And she has a lot of wounding. Thanks for listening. And seeing me. And getting it. |
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Post by seeking on May 4, 2023 20:22:25 GMT
"Hey, I'm going to pass on a get-together for now. I am busy attending to some healing and big shifts in our world. The homeschool community didn't work out. I think community can be a wonderful thing and also a complex thing. But I hope you enjoy your trips. Keep writing poetry and good luck with the garden." I edited out a couple of the more biting remarks, and it works quite fine as a polite but honest dip-out (not a cop-out.) I don't feel you owe more. You were pen pals, basically. Yes, you nailed it on the biting remarks. I guess there are parts of me that still want to lash out at him. Dip out.  |
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