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Post by bella88 on Apr 23, 2016 6:32:24 GMT
Hi everyone,
I have been reading the various threads here over the last week or so and have found great comfort at a time where I have felt very alone, isolated and feeling a certain loss of my sanity (at times).
I now realise that I have more than likely been dealing with either a fearful or dismissive avoidant. I would really appreciate any feedback if you can offer it.
My situation is unusual in that the man in question has been in my life for 19 years (he is now mid-late 60s) - we have been very close friends during that time but nothing more. We dated at the beginning of these 19 years, but more as an old fashioned courtship - dinners, concerts etc. This went on for about 12 months when I then spoke to him about our situation, and asked whether he felt there was anything happening. We had an undeniable connection and attraction and he was giving me very clear signals of interest. He replied that he couldn't give me what I needed - only friendship. At that point I had fallen in love with him but understood what he was saying, at least at face value so I accepted this. I promised I would be his friend and I have done so for the last 17-18 years.
During this time I got on with my life - I married (and divorced) and was then in a subsequent committed relationship for about 2.5 years. He, on the other hand, dated many women but never went any further and did not commit to a relationship with any of them. So from the outface he has remained single. We continued our friendship and became very very close over the years. I deliberately avoided bringing up anything from the past.
I have been single for the last 4 years and during that time we have become even more close. He has been sending me increasing signals that I am very important and special to him. In public he raved about me, almost elevating me to a goddess-like status (stroking my face, holding my hand etc) but in private he made no contact, pushed me away etc. When I did contact him he often didn't respond, or if he did he was delayed and quite formal. This incongruence was causing me escalated upset and confusion. I became upset at the dawning realisation that I couldn't continue with the pain of what was happening, yet I knew that if I broached the subject it may push him away further and I would lose the friendship that I had valued and honoured for so long.
The beginning of the final unravelling happened earlier this year where he began to bring women to events that he knew I would be at. This began after a period of particularly intimate contact (no sex/kissing etc but intimate sharing of emotions, fears, vulnerabilities and the inevitable fact of us becoming closer). At first I was stunned as he knew I would be at these events (I had asked him whether he wanted a ticket but I never heard a response) yet he engineered bringing these women. His contact with these women in these situations was quite sterile, non-connected and somewhat disinterested. There was certainly no intimacy or romantic connection evident. However with the last event he stayed overnight with the woman in question near the event (our mutual friend was hosting it) and then brought her back to the event venue the next day knowing I would be there (I stayed overnight at the venue itself). Once again he seemed disconnected to the lady in question.
I am not the sort of woman that has ever appropriated interest from a man when I know there isn't any. However I began to feel real pain after these incidents. We were not in a committed relationship as such but the messages that he had been sending me for years belied that. He often told me how special I was to him, I much he cared, that I was an absolute priority in his life and that he loved me - yet his actions belied this.
Everything came to a head when a few weeks later I asked to meet with him to tell him that I couldn't continue our friendship. I did not want to get to this point but I realised that I loved him and his behaviour was causing me too much pain to continue. He met me - once I had let him know about what I had decided he became very cold and clinical (he is a medical consultant) and proceeded to tell me that I was "never part of his life anyway", that he "had no feelings for me whatsoever", that " he never wanted to go to bed with me" (yelling this across the restaurant where we were eating - at the top of his voice), and then proceeded to tell me that he was "exploring the possibility of developing something" wth one of the aforementioned women, despite "there being an imbalance due to her being very keen/in love with him and him not feeling the same way as he felt no particular connection with her". However he then admitted that he has this particular connection, one that he prizes above anything else, with me "in spades".
I was very upset at this point and proceeded to leave - he walked me to my car and then broke down in the middle of the street saying that he thought "nothing of himself, he was a millstone around my neck and that my life would be better off without him in it". He then asked whether I wanted to reconsider and think about things over night. I was so upset I said no and proceeded to say good bye, which was very hard (for both of us). He was very upset and then became withholding ("I want to hug you but I don't want to give you any hope" etc).
I then drove away.
I have spent the last few weeks trying to regain my balance again and come to terms with the fact that I suspect he is an Avoidant personality. Do any of you have any thoughts? Do avoidant men use other women to push someone they care about away even further?
Thank you for your time
Bella 88
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katy
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Post by katy on Apr 23, 2016 14:02:14 GMT
Bella,
What a confusing 19 years. Several things came to my mind as I read your post. In one of Jeb's books, Jeb includes a letter from a person who has been very hurt dealing with an avoidant and his response to that person. In his response, Jeb makes a statement that you need to understand that an avoidant's inner emotional landscape is entirely different from a normal person's thinking patterns. That's my experience. Avoidants seem normal and intelligent and appear to be wonderful, kind, understanding people. But, their internal wiring is actually different and you never know when the weirdness is going to emerge.
As I'm writing, I'm thinking about the new Star Trek TV show with Patrick Stewart (my husband is a fan and I've seen many episodes). So often, there will be characters on the show who appear relatively normal until the plot revolves around their very different internal agendas. That seems to sum up my experience with an avoidant. The interactions appear to be kind and friendly until the switch flips and, that day, the avoidant does something which, to a normal person, feels very hurtful.
I think that we get lulled into thinking that an avoidant, who seems kind and polite and empathetic, plays by the same rules as we do. My experience is that when you go past the superficial, avoidants are in very foreign territory and they are playing with components of relationships in a very non-sequential way. Instead of becoming gradually closer to somebody and progressively making that person feel more and more special, avoidants come close, then pull away, then come close again. They know how to replicate the closeness but they don't understand the normal sequence of events to become and remain close to another person.
People who are used to normal, progressively close relationships, will interpret the sudden pulling away as rejection. To an avoidant, I suspect, that since they are not carrying the map of how a normal relationship progresses, rejecting you is just today's response. Tomorrow, they may pop back up and attempt to be very close.
I know it's very difficult to not take it personally, but I'm almost to the point of understanding that the close and distant moments from an avoidant are like a child picking up colored blocks - they just exhibit whatever behavior seems interesting today instead of following the roadmap of normal relationships.
Best wishes to you.
Katy
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Post by erasmus on Apr 23, 2016 23:49:16 GMT
Out of my perhaps more limited experience, I would second what Katy said. This man's behavior certainly sounds avoidant to me; in any case it's not normal and healthy relationship behavior.
For what it may be worth, I'm dealing with a less extreme version of what you are going through, and while I can't claim to know anything that will immediately take the pain away, I can say that it will help some if you remind yourself--out loud if that works, and hundreds of times a day if you need to--that *it's not about you.* It's not about anything you did, or your personality, or your worth or desirability. This man cannot give you what you want and need, not because you don't deserve it, but because he does not have it to give.
Edited to add: And if your experience is like mine, what is maybe making the pain much worse is the memory of those wonderful times of seeming intimacy. I know that's what is hurting me right now, even knowing my friend's avoidant behavior is not about me. All I can think of to say to both of us is that it is all right to hurt and grieve--it shows we are human; that the grieving will run its course; and that if we can learn to use and heed our "avoidant radar" early on, we can have intimacy with others in the future that is just as deep, and more genuine and lasting.
It's very difficult, when you're in pain, to hear and believe that it will get better--believe me, I know and am living that right now. But it will.
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Post by bella88 on Apr 24, 2016 1:12:39 GMT
Katy and Erasmus, Thank you for responding so quickly - it has been so welcome to find your posts, they have brought me comfort at this time. I have taken on board what you have said and it rings so true in my situation. I am starting to think that he may be fearful avoidant, not dismissive (due to his lack of self worth and his declamations about ideally wanting to be in a relationship.) I have good days and bad days. Today was a bad day unfortunately. Whilst I know in my heart I couldn't go on with the way things were I can't help but feel that my "rejection" of him was read as indicative of my unwillingness to be patient and to care for him unconditionally. Have any of you experienced this self-imposed guilt if you have had to detach/separate from an Avoidant? Truthfully - I have given this 19 years, but is there a time limit on these things?  Our final conversation just happened only 2 weeks ago so I am still quite raw, hence my questions..... I am particularly stuck on this issue of other women brought into the arena at the point of their withdrawal/rejection, his mentioning of one lady in particular....Have any of you had this experience with an Avoidant? Thank you again for your help Bella |
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Post by bella88 on Apr 24, 2016 1:24:21 GMT
I was also wondering about your views re no contact with the Avoidant.
During our last conversation two weeks ago I insisted on no contact. This was primarily due to my level of upset, but was confirmed when he brought up the other lady in question.
I am now worrying that it was the best thing to do...
As I was party to a large amount of unexpected information/ data from my Avoidant that evening I had no choice but to take him and what he was saying at face value - I now understand a lot more about what is driving his behaviour and comments - time and perspective have helped.
Bella
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raco
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Post by raco on Apr 24, 2016 3:29:57 GMT
Hi Bella, We continued our friendship and became very very close over the years. The avoidants I've known were not very good at friendship. Usually, they have a rather fake personality and never really share their emotions/fears/vulnerabilities. It's interesting to see some other cases. The beginning of the final unravelling happened earlier this year where he began to bring women to events that he knew I would be at. This began after a period of particularly intimate contact (no sex/kissing etc but intimate sharing of emotions, fears, vulnerabilities and the inevitable fact of us becoming closer). At first I was stunned as he knew I would be at these events (I had asked him whether he wanted a ticket but I never heard a response) yet he engineered bringing these women. In this description of the dismissive-avoidant type, we can read that avoidants can flirt with others to introduce insecurity into the relationship, and can pull away when things are going too well. You say this behavior occurred just after a period of intimate contact with him, so maybe it was his way to sabotage your very close relationship. I am not the sort of woman that has ever appropriated interest from a man when I know there isn't any. However I began to feel real pain after these incidents. We were not in a committed relationship as such but the messages that he had been sending me for years belied that. It's hard to date an avoidant and not to feel pain at some point, when they start acting like they suddenly don't care about us anymore. Even a simple friendship with an avoidant, with no romance at all, can be painful. There was nothing you could do to avoid that. Avoidants often seem "normal" at first, especially when we don't know about attachment theory, so we come across them, start a relationship, and then it's just a matter of time before things start going wrong. and proceeded to tell me that I was "never part of his life anyway", that he "had no feelings for me whatsoever", that " he never wanted to go to bed with me" (yelling this across the restaurant where we were eating - at the top of his voice) Did you slap him? If not, maybe it's not too late. I'm joking. he walked me to my car and then broke down in the middle of the street saying that he thought "nothing of himself, he was a millstone around my neck and that my life would be better off without him in it". He was probably right. Do avoidant men use other women to push someone they care about away even further? They use anything they can to push you away, as long as it's not healthy/fair/honest/respectful/straightforward. Whilst I know in my heart I couldn't go on with the way things were I can't help but feel that my "rejection" of him was read as indicative of my unwillingness to be patient and to care for him unconditionally. Letting him know that you will be patient and care about him unconditionally would not change anything. It could even push him further away, as it implies a strong durable bond with him. The problem is not in your behavior, it is in his personality. There is nothing you can do or could have done to have a healthy relationship with this man. I was also wondering about your views re no contact with the Avoidant. During our last conversation two weeks ago I insisted on no contact. This was primarily due to my level of upset, but was confirmed when he brought up the other lady in question. I am now worrying that it was the best thing to do... You said you have been his friend during 17-18 years, only a friend despite your love for him. Was this a satisfying relationship for both of you, and do you think you could do this again? Could you have a truly platonic and healthy friendship with him? If yes, then maybe that no contact can be temporary and last just the time you need to grieve the romance part. If no, then no contact is probably the best thing to do. |
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katy
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Post by katy on Apr 24, 2016 3:36:13 GMT
Bella,
In my case, I had a much shorter, less involved relationship with an avoidant. But, as I look back, I can see that, when he shifted to the rejection mode, he did use many statements about other people being more important to him than I was as a technique to push me away. So, I'm not surprised that the fellow with whom you dealt used other women as tools to make sure that you understood that he had to make an escape from the relationship.
I also think that being "friends" with an avoidant allows them to move back and forth on the continuum from them acting as though there are true emotional bonds to them asserting that you have hardly any claim on them. In your case, it sounds as though your avoidant was constantly moving back and forth on the continuum. I had the same thing happen to me and it's very confusing and emotionally debilitating because it's so difficult to actually figure out what's going on. Are they nice? Are they cruel? Did you do something wrong that drove them to rejecting you? Are they insane? Nothing makes sense.
Everything that I have read says that it's probably better to remain No Contact with an avoidant. As hopeful as it seems to try to fix things and to get back into a normal on-going relationship, it's probably unlikely that things will really change. Plus, by being away from the avoidant, it gives you a chance to move on from assessing the meaning of every detail and every conversation to finally being able to see the patterns of what went on over the years.
As I said in my previous response, as normal, loving people, we know that kind, affectionate relationships proceed in the direction where both people feel liked and respected. With a normal person, if cracks begin to develop in a relationship, things won't go well and the relationship will end. With an avoidant, their behaviors are eventually all over the map, they are kind and affectionate, they are praising, they are rejecting, they may be demeaning, and then they may come back as though all of that earlier behavior was normal and things should just carry as before because you are "friends". I believe that an avoidant's very erratic behavior is the outward evidence of their severe inner conflicts about how close can they actually get to people.
I know how hard it is to sort all of this out. I hope that you will eventually be able to see that you were dealing with a troubled person who has enormous inner conflicts.
Best wishes to you.
Katy
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Post by erasmus on Apr 24, 2016 4:47:48 GMT
And this is to a large extent an example of "do as I say, not as I do," but I'd emphasize the *were* in Katy's last sentence: past tense, and best to keep it that way.
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katy
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Post by katy on Apr 24, 2016 6:12:45 GMT
Erasmus,
I actually had a huge revelation this past week. The avoidant whom I had been dealing with is a dog breeder who helped me train our rare rescue guard dog. In a previous post, I described the convoluted craziness in dealing with him that made me so anxious. I had stayed away from him for months but it was still very frustrating because I kept thinking that he could just act normal and everything would be resolved. I finally saw this week that the same elusive dance that went on for months is most likely how he's going to always act with me.
Last Saturday, I opened a new bag of prescription dog food which I had bought at the vet, the dog ate his breakfast, walked over to my husband to be petted, and had a seizure. He had never had a seizure before. We rushed the dog to the vet and they did all kinds of blood tests and vet exams and even an EKG. Nobody knew what had happened because the seizure wasn't typical.
This past Monday, the vet called with some more blood test results and again wondered if this odd reaction had something to do with the dog's breed. Clearly the vet didn't want to indict the food which I had bought from his animal hospital. Thank goodness the dog didn't appear to have suffered any brain damage after the first seizure, but it's important to get to the cause so that we can prevent any future seizures.
Monday was tax day here in the US, so I finished our tax envelope and mailed it at the post office. After I mailed it, I sat in my car in the post office parking lot to text the avoidant to see if it's possible that the dog's problem is a known breed issue. I had to use a text message because he refuses to talk on the phone. With his silent treatment behavior over the last few months, I really thought that I would never hear back from him. So, I started my car and pulled out of the post office parking lot. Literally, before I got to the corner, there was a return text with info about the rarity of epilepsy in this breed. This was the same person who took weeks or never responded to text messages.
My first thought was that maybe, finally, he was actually going to act normal. I responded to him and said thanks and told him a bit more about what the vet said. I received no answer so it felt like the silent treatment was already starting again. Then, late that night, another text message popped up with a few more factoids about epilepsy. But, my immediate feeling was, here we go again. Instead of being able to have a normal, problem solving conversation, I was always left hanging until he deigned to respond or not to respond to a text message. On Friday, because he is an important resource with this dog breed, I did let him know about the food manufacturer's evasive report on the food. He never even bothered to respond. Suddenly, I saw the big picture. I realized that text messages were emblematic of the whole avoidant dance with him which made me constantly extremely anxious. I never knew what was going to happen next.
Because I had been away from his erratic behavior for a while, I realized that the instantaneous response, then the delayed response, and then no response is what went on for months. I now clearly see that I don't have a personality type that can tolerate all of the mixed signals. I do much better with consistent feedback.
So, yes, I am even more sure that I need to stay far away. And, so far, the good news is that, on a new dog food, the dog seems OK. We have our fingers crossed.
Katy
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Post by Mary on Apr 24, 2016 15:37:40 GMT
To the OP: What seems like erratic, confusing and cruel behavior, it looks to me like he is trying not to hurt you. He values you and and can only handle closeness at times and probably in small doses. However, he is trying to push you away to "spare" you. In some way, he knows he can't sustain the long term, stable closeness that you want, so he pushes you away to spare you further hurt in the end. This is what I see.
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katy
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Post by katy on Apr 24, 2016 16:42:06 GMT
Mary,
At times, I heard a kind-sounding, pleading tone with the avoidant whom I dealt with before he left. I actually don't think he is an unkind person who sets out to torment people. I think he tries to be friends, until he can't tolerate the closeness, and then he runs away. Then, when he has enough space, he comes back to be friends again. The problem is that this push/pull behavior can cause trauma bonds in some people. I wrote a post on trauma bonds several months ago. Sometimes, very powerful trauma bonds occur because the non-avoidant person is pulled back into early life trauma of rejecting or neglectful parents.
I tend to be a very forgiving person and tried to be kind and understanding. But, even though I'm sure that the avoidant whom I dealt with was only doing what he had to do to survive, the constant back and forth of being friends and then being rejected, literally was making me sick with anxiety. As I said, I don't have a personality that can easily tolerate constantly not knowing where the avoidant was on the continuum. Basically, I never knew if I was in or I was out. I never knew if I could count on him or if he was in the middle of a running away period.
My help to Bella is to let her know that's it's OK to realize that the avoidant's behavior can be very upsetting and that it's OK to realize that you're not emotionally capable to tolerating the uncertainty and feelings of rejection that go along with being friends with an avoidant. Some people, who are not triggered to feel especially close to an avoidant, probably won't care if they don't hear from the avoidant for months. But, if your emotional make-up is that you feel close to the avoidant, it feels terrible to be rejected and to always feel unsure about what's going on.
I think this is why most of the literature says that avoidant people and anxious people have huge difficulties trying to carry on relationships. Both people may be fine people, struggling with their own pasts, but they are not good for each other in the long run.
Katy
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Post by bella88 on Apr 25, 2016 6:14:44 GMT
Thanks so much everyone, your comments have meant a great deal at this time.
Katy - thank you for all of your insights - it certainly sounds as if you have had a difficult time with your Avoidant.
Erasmus - thank you too for your feedback - I understand a lot of your commentary, it has really helped.
Mary - thank you for your post. It's interesting that you see these aspects in my Avoidant. Does anyone have any experience of an Avoidant masking their "pushing away" with a very clear and clinical rejection, including the introduction of another woman?
I realise now that in the moment of our discussion over two weeks ago my Avoidant was sending so much data that all I could do at the time was take him at face value. I wasn't aware just HOW much information he was sending me. When he was telling me he had no feelings for me, that I wasn't part of his life etc etc I took it at face value and it hurt - it hurt a lot.
Now with hindsight and distance I realise that his behaviour was erratic and tortured, despite his ability to deliver his message with utter calm and rationale a lot of the time. The data was fuelled with sub text......
Katy - I suspect I am very much like yourself in that I find it very difficult to shrug off what I perceive to be a lack of effort/interest from him. It has caused me great pain. I know that, in a way, I am the person who has pulled the plug, not him. But this has not been done lightly, and even now I am being very hard on myself, wondering whether I have done the right thing.
All I can say is that when I spoke to him my overwhelming position was that I couldn't continue. I have been his friend for a long time, successfully from my end in many ways. But even at a friendship level he was pushing me away, let alone any mixed signals (of which there were many).
The way I saw it at the time was that I was in a lose-lose position, damned if I did and damned if I didn't. I was at the point where not having him in my life felt better than having him there.I never thought I would actually get to that point but I think the introduction of these other women pressed a button in me - it was a bridge I couldn't travel over...
I am not sure whether this will change in the future or not. At this stage I am just trying to be kind to myself and regain a sense of esteem and worth which has been battered by his comments.....even with a growing understanding of the reality of where his comments are coming from...
Mary - I come back to your post again......If I meant anything of any value at all why did he let me go so easily.....or perhaps I haven't got far enough to truly understand how limited he is. It is a slow and profound process...
Thanks for listening all
Bella
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Post by Mary on Apr 25, 2016 13:57:50 GMT
Bella,
Because of this "I was at the point where not having him in my life felt better than having him there" and the thought that in the end, you will only hurt the person more if you continue. Just as you "feel better" without him, it "feels better" to an avoidant to be left alone. I don't know if you have seen my previous posts, but I am an avoidant, so I come at this form the other side than most people on this board. I have struggled all my life with having people in my life versus the knowledge that I will only hurt people that get close. There are people that I really want to try to keep in my life, but I am also relieved if they give up. On the one hand, I really like the person, but on the other, I am relieved if they give up, because I can then go away thinking there was nothing I can do, they don't want to be with me. It's easier. If they don't go away easily, I unconsciously push them away. When I was younger and less aware, I would use any tactic /excuse to show the other person that I Just wanted them to go away or to get away for a period of time to "recharge". It's also easy to let go, because feelings are so repressed, you don't experience the feelings the way others do or they come at a later time when its's "too late". It's easy for me to tell someone something in a "clinical" way because at the time, I feel nothing. The feeling however may never surface or it can surface a day, a week, a month later and then it's too late.
Katy, I agree with you. My post was in no way meant to disagree with you. Many people cannot handle a relationship with an avoidant and shouldn't. My history is filled with anxious partners that never worked out. It takes an extremely patient, understanding person to deal with it. I have only recently found a man that sees through my actions and loves me enough to stick it out. Even though I realize who I am, I am still erratic and push away, but somehow he says he understands me and stays steady. However, he is not anxious and I have found that is the better partner for me.
I am only writing what has been my personal experience. Different people have their own reasons for their behavior I am sure. I don't know if any of this helps, but this board has been extremely interesting to me and helps me understand what other people see.
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katy
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Post by katy on Apr 25, 2016 15:22:27 GMT
Bella,
I was profoundly impacted by interacting with an avoidant. When I first talked with him, I was, finally, recovering from a very long haul with cancer treatment and its long, debilitating aftermath. When I was so sick, I sort of retreated into a shell of my immediate family and very close friends. I was finally beginning to feel better and was beginning to have thoughts about getting back into the real world. When I first talking with the avoidant, he was very, very far down on the friendly, supportive end of the avoidant continuum and gave every impression of wanting to be good friends. I knew nothing about avoidants and assumed that this was wonderful, inspiring new friend. I had no reason not to trust him. He had been introduced to me by somebody in his field who respected him, he checked out to the degree that I could verify him on the Internet, and he was consistently charming and supportive.
When he began to display intermittent rejecting behaviors, I now know that I developed trauma bonds. I suspect that the trauma was both from my recent cancer experience and probably, on a deeper level, from my childhood with a narcissistic mother. The whole back and forth with him was literally making me sick with anxiety. He actually did admit that he is an avoidant and that he never lets anybody close. I knew I had to fix whatever was wrong with dealing with him or walk away. Nothing got fixed, he refused to talk or to compromise, he started to blame me for causing him problems, and our communication stopped. I knew that staying away from him was the right thing to do and the only reason that I broke down and contacted him last week was because our vet had really urged me to find out if there might be some kind of breed-specific reason that our dog had had a seizure. In the end, the contact actually gave me more information about the same communication problems that had been going on before.
At first, after I walked/he pushed me away, I replayed every conversation in my head trying to figure out who did what and why. I kept thinking that if only I had done this or that differently maybe the outcome would have been different. As I've gotten more distance from the situation, the specific conversations and events are fading and I am more able to see the general pattern of the initial charm, the repeated pulling away, sort-of returning, and pulling away again, and finally the total walking/pushing away.
I'm finally able to see that the avoidant I knew was very skilled at replicating being a supportive friend, but that he turned on the supportive behavior based on where he was, at that time, on the continuum of closeness. When he could tolerate being close, he seemed to be a wonderful friend. When he had to get away, the cold, evasive, but trying to sound very logical statements began about other people being more important to his business, about him being too busy with work, and about me bothering him too much and interfering with his business. As I look back, I can see him sliding back on forth on the continuum from friendliness to pushing me away, sometimes within hours.
I just pray that I learned enough about avoidants and enough about myself through this experience that I won't get sucked in again. I am now aware that avoidants exist and how they operate. I'm sure that I'm going to be much slower trusting new people to remain consistent in who they say they are.
But, as a ray of hope, I did have an interesting conversation with my husband about all of this. He said that the most common type of avoidants, dismissive avoidants, are pretty easy to spot. I agree - my radar is excellent for looking for people who have hostile and demeaning traits. My husband feels that meeting a charming, evasive avoidant, who causes injury by shunning, is probably much less likely. My husband is very socially intelligent and he said that he's never actually met somebody who acts like the avoidant I just dealt with.
I hope you can begin to develop some perspective on what happened to you.
Best wishes,
Katy
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Our final conversation just happened only 2 weeks ago so I am still quite raw, hence my questions.....