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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2018 18:59:27 GMT
I guess the entry to the story is going to be the same for a lot of us, the mostly AP (me, male) and full-on FA (her) meet and fall head over heels, it's intoxicating, we spend so much time together even though she normally needs a lot of space; I feel great playing the comforter, doing everything, and she enjoys being comforted - as apparently she has had to take the lead on most of her prior relationships. The first three months are great, but then things accelerate and she moves in with me, quite by accident. Cue about two months later and we've already broken up five times in the last four weeks; usually from my demands to discuss needs and feelings and uncomfortable things like that, she shuts down all conversation by ending the relationship. It's at the beginning of this two months that I discover attachment theory and voraciously consume literature and articles every evening. I fall into the trap in believing that just because I know what's happening, I can fix or control it. I lose total control of myself, lose my identity, drop my boundaries on a whim, no idea who I am. I feel like a rat in a maze, waking consumed with anxiety every day and feeling it all day, every day. She moves out, back to her own apt, her ex (now a "best friend") comes to visit and she insists he stay with her. She starts to intensely work on detaching herself from me, though telling me whenever i can get a word to her that "everything's fine." Two weeks later when the ex is gone (I don't believe there was any physical infidelity, but plenty of emotional sorts.) she reaches out, and now - in classic avoidant style - we're no longer in a relationship, and she longs to have it like the old days, "light and simple" - she's reluctant to put any tag on us at all; whereas I was a bf before, now we're just "dating." I last one date (jan 11th) before I lost my shit over her pulling out her phone a few times and texting people, and to her it seems like I'm a psychopath blowing up over nothing, but in reality it's the pent up resentment, fear, helplessness and downright rejection and the horrible feeling of "why the f*** am I doing this to myself." We separate again. We keep talking over IM, she wants to remain friends. I talk to her over IM most days, but it's just making it impossible to move on. This week I just stopped initiating any conversation and stopped replying unless the message was a direct question. She then stops initiating for two days. Yesterday, she sends me a message explaining that her co-worker is hitting on her, asking her out to dinner, mentioning it's funny because he sits two desk away from her - she even sends a screen shot of the email. I read it, I do not reply. Three hours later, "oh, sorry, I'm not trying to piss you off or anything, it's just that he's stupid and I thought it was funny. Hope you're ok  " I did not reply. So, this is the message she chose to re-initiate conversation with, after two days of non communication. She has never sent anything so blatantly and emotionally manipulative (imo) before. The fact that she neglected to mention whether or not she accepted, instead leaving it vague is key. I think she just did this impulsively as an FA and probably doesn't even understand her own motivations for it at the time, instead just working off the murky feelings inside her. So while I don't think it was consciously manipulative, it was manipulative nonetheless. I don't know how to reply. I am afraid if I don't reply I will feel like a piece of crap for holding this control over her. If I reply, I am certain she'll just gaslight me. Advice? Update: I guess I answered my own question: Don't reply. I don't even know what I want myself out of this. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2018 20:01:50 GMT
As a DA, my answer is reply if you want to and don't if you don't want to. But I'm not really understanding the question. Can you explain what you mean by "holding this control over her"?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2018 20:27:31 GMT
As a DA, my answer is reply if you want to and don't if you don't want to. But I'm not really understanding the question. Can you explain what you mean by "holding this control over her"? I guess this is more an AP thing since we're conscious of it. I am deliberately being unresponsive, silent and not responding to her message because I expect an argument to come out of it, no matter what I say. This makes me feel like crap, because it is exactly what avoidants do which triggers APs so much. Please take "do" with a pinch of salt: The silent treatment is mostly an effortless inaction on the part of a DA/FA but it is a deliberate and conscious action for an AP which drains a lot of emotional energy. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2018 20:37:16 GMT
As a DA, my answer is reply if you want to and don't if you don't want to. But I'm not really understanding the question. Can you explain what you mean by "holding this control over her"? I guess this is more an AP thing since we're conscious of it. I am deliberately being unresponsive, silent and not responding to her message because I expect an argument to come out of it, no matter what I say. This makes me feel like crap, because it is exactly what avoidants do which triggers APs so much. Please take "do" with a pinch of salt: The silent treatment is mostly an effortless inaction on the part of a DA/FA but it is a deliberate and conscious action for an AP which drains a lot of emotional energy. FAs may be more conscious of it. I am not. I'm sort of like the wind...if I have something to say or want to reply to someone, I will. I don't really think about it having any power over someone. (obvious why avoidants are so infuriating for APs). Hopefully yasmin has some comments for you, but perhaps you already decided. |
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Post by BreakingTheSpell on Feb 1, 2018 21:00:48 GMT
Silent treatment may indeed trigger her. I suggest you come clean about how you do not intend to hurt her at all, nor use silent treatment to get a response from her... this only reinforces the push-pull dance.
I hope you are able to move on someday. In my opinion you need somebody who doesnt trigger you and any sort of unaware avoidants (DAs or FAs) will do just that. You may be luckier if the avoidant is willing to work on her triggering behavior, that being said, you should also work on yours so you dont trigger her as well.
Else, I believe you are better off with somebody more secure, or with the same desire for closeness and intimacy that you have.
"I talk to her over IM most days, but it's just making it impossible to move on." Go no contact. Not to force a response from her. That is the wrong reason to do it. Do it for yourself. You may still think about her every single day... but once you are over the cold turkey from the adrenaline rushes, you will start feeling better. It is pure neurobiology.
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Post by jayber on Feb 1, 2018 21:28:16 GMT
As a DA, my answer is reply if you want to and don't if you don't want to. But I'm not really understanding the question. Can you explain what you mean by "holding this control over her"? I guess this is more an AP thing since we're conscious of it. I am deliberately being unresponsive, silent and not responding to her message because I expect an argument to come out of it, no matter what I say. This makes me feel like crap, because it is exactly what avoidants do which triggers APs so much. Please take "do" with a pinch of salt: The silent treatment is mostly an effortless inaction on the part of a DA/FA but it is a deliberate and conscious action for an AP which drains a lot of emotional energy. Are you being silent to get a reaction and reassurance (she likes you) from her? Or are you being silent because you respect yourself, don't tolerate this sh*t and have the self discipline to create distance so you can move on quicker? The latter is more secure of course but from her perspective it's the same. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 18:32:24 GMT
It's probably somewhere in the middle: We agreed to remain friends, and we were going to try to do something this weekend together. I wanted distance to recover as much as possible before seeing her again, but honestly, I am terrified to see her again. So really, it's a no-win.
Ultimately I couldn't hold off on being silent, so I ignored the shitty message she sent as just say "I'm okay." and then added "I'm not trying to hurt you by being silent." to which she replied that she was not hurt and then - almost as if she had no idea I was even cutting contact to zero the last few days, which is hilarious because it's probably true - she realized that I was explicitly being quiet, so she took offence, everything went to sh*t, she said there's no way we can be friends etc, etc. I guess this really triggered her hard, feeling rejected/abandoned etc. So she blocked me on social media. I guess ultimately it's for the best - I no longer have a choice about what I want to do with respect to keeping away.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 19:10:51 GMT
It's probably somewhere in the middle: We agreed to remain friends, and we were going to try to do something this weekend together. I wanted distance to recover as much as possible before seeing her again, but honestly, I am terrified to see her again. So really, it's a no-win. Ultimately I couldn't hold off on being silent, so I ignored the shitty message she sent as just say "I'm okay." and then added "I'm not trying to hurt you by being silent." to which she replied that she was not hurt and then - almost as if she had no idea I was even cutting contact to zero the last few days, which is hilarious because it's probably true - she realized that I was explicitly being quiet, so she took offence, everything went to sh*t, she said there's no way we can be friends etc, etc. I guess this really triggered her hard, feeling rejected/abandoned etc. So she blocked me on social media. I guess ultimately it's for the best - I no longer have a choice about what I want to do with respect to keeping away. Been there, done that! The trigger for me is manipulation. I don't think much about periods of silence and they don't bother me (people are busy, they're mad, etc), but if I feel like it's been deliberated on and done on purpose, I will suspect manipulation and go bonkers. |
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Post by yasmin on Feb 2, 2018 20:34:44 GMT
Oh man. Reading this I see how complex the FA style is. In many ways I think the DA or AP is easier to "love" because at least you know what you're dealing with. With an FA, you seem to always be having to guess which side of them needs response at that moment. Like walking a tightrope.
I do think in my personal view that each FA has their own line somewhere where they cross between states. For me it's this...
Before dating / when he is asking me out: Avoidant
Early dating: Anxious
Things on the verge of becoming very serious: Avoidant
Settled into the relationship: Secure (provided not triggered)
I actually think from observations a lot of FAs follow a similar pattern where they push everyone away at first, then once they let them in and feel vulnerable the table turns, then once it comes to real commitment they have more avoidant responses. A dance! And I think the best you can do along that road is to be not too clingy or needy, but confident, calm and let her /him know that you have no intention of ever going anywhere.
For this situation...man it is a tough position for you to be in, but can I commend you for recognising that by not responding you'd trigger her. You're a good person to have that level of empathy when someone was actually trying to trigger you. this is where the awareness becomes beautiful...without knowing she was FA you might have responded differently.
I think you did the right thing sending her a message to be honest (this stopped you from being manipulative yourself and was the grown up response) and I do think she knew you were quiet, even if subconsciously, because the email texting business is classic FA / AP protest behaviours and I have been known to do stuff like this myself (oh the shame) when triggered and panicked. More so when I was much younger, and much less so now.
I think her response here is anger at your anger and also a protest behavior rather than anger appropriate to the incident. You did nothing wrong and of course she knows this.
She will be back... are you prepared with response? How do you actually feel about this relationship..is it over for you? I think the FA style is so darn complicated that they will struggle to relate safely with anyone who is not secure without driving the other person crazy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 22:41:36 GMT
Oh man. Reading this I see how complex the FA style is. In many ways I think the DA or AP is easier to "love" because at least you know what you're dealing with. With an FA, you seem to always be having to guess which side of them needs response at that moment. Like walking a tightrope. I do think in my personal view that each FA has their own line somewhere where they cross between states. For me it's this... Before dating / when he is asking me out: Avoidant Early dating: Anxious Things on the verge of becoming very serious: Avoidant Settled into the relationship: Secure (provided not triggered) I actually think from observations a lot of FAs follow a similar pattern where they push everyone away at first, then once they let them in and feel vulnerable the table turns, then once it comes to real commitment they have more avoidant responses. A dance! And I think the best you can do along that road is to be not too clingy or needy, but confident, calm and let her /him know that you have no intention of ever going anywhere. For this situation...man it is a tough position for you to be in, but can I commend you for recognising that by not responding you'd trigger her. You're a good person to have that level of empathy when someone was actually trying to trigger you. this is where the awareness becomes beautiful...without knowing she was FA you might have responded differently. I think you did the right thing sending her a message to be honest (this stopped you from being manipulative yourself and was the grown up response) and I do think she knew you were quiet, even if subconsciously, because the email texting business is classic FA / AP protest behaviours and I have been known to do stuff like this myself (oh the shame) when triggered and panicked. More so when I was much younger, and much less so now. I think her response here is anger at your anger and also a protest behavior rather than anger appropriate to the incident. You did nothing wrong and of course she knows this. She will be back... are you prepared with response? How do you actually feel about this relationship..is it over for you? I think the FA style is so darn complicated that they will struggle to relate safely with anyone who is not secure without driving the other person crazy. Yasmin, I knew you would have a good answer. I think FAs are more in touch, whereas I am so oblivious most of the time. This explanation helps me so much. My girl friend is FA and she confuses the heck out of me. I think she follows your pattern too. She would meet a guy and tell me she had no interest in him whatsoever and then the next thing I know, they would be dating and she was all about him. I'm an outsider to the situation, so she tells me a lot of what's going on, but I was still always confused. |
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Post by yasmin on Feb 2, 2018 22:53:11 GMT
Oh man. Reading this I see how complex the FA style is. In many ways I think the DA or AP is easier to "love" because at least you know what you're dealing with. With an FA, you seem to always be having to guess which side of them needs response at that moment. Like walking a tightrope. I do think in my personal view that each FA has their own line somewhere where they cross between states. For me it's this... Before dating / when he is asking me out: Avoidant Early dating: Anxious Things on the verge of becoming very serious: Avoidant Settled into the relationship: Secure (provided not triggered) I actually think from observations a lot of FAs follow a similar pattern where they push everyone away at first, then once they let them in and feel vulnerable the table turns, then once it comes to real commitment they have more avoidant responses. A dance! And I think the best you can do along that road is to be not too clingy or needy, but confident, calm and let her /him know that you have no intention of ever going anywhere. For this situation...man it is a tough position for you to be in, but can I commend you for recognising that by not responding you'd trigger her. You're a good person to have that level of empathy when someone was actually trying to trigger you. this is where the awareness becomes beautiful...without knowing she was FA you might have responded differently. I think you did the right thing sending her a message to be honest (this stopped you from being manipulative yourself and was the grown up response) and I do think she knew you were quiet, even if subconsciously, because the email texting business is classic FA / AP protest behaviours and I have been known to do stuff like this myself (oh the shame) when triggered and panicked. More so when I was much younger, and much less so now. I think her response here is anger at your anger and also a protest behavior rather than anger appropriate to the incident. You did nothing wrong and of course she knows this. She will be back... are you prepared with response? How do you actually feel about this relationship..is it over for you? I think the FA style is so darn complicated that they will struggle to relate safely with anyone who is not secure without driving the other person crazy. Yasmin, I knew you would have a good answer. I think FAs are more in touch, whereas I am so oblivious most of the time. This explanation helps me so much. My girl friend is FA and she confuses the heck out of me. I think she follows your pattern too. She would meet a guy and tell me she had no interest in him whatsoever and then the next thing I know, they would be dating and she was all about him. I'm an outsider to the situation, so she tells me a lot of what's going on, but I was still always confused. Ha ha. Honestly I think I confuse my self!! So many relationships like that for me where the tables turned too. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2018 23:30:20 GMT
Oh man. Reading this I see how complex the FA style is. In many ways I think the DA or AP is easier to "love" because at least you know what you're dealing with. With an FA, you seem to always be having to guess which side of them needs response at that moment. Like walking a tightrope. I do think in my personal view that each FA has their own line somewhere where they cross between states. For me it's this... Before dating / when he is asking me out: Avoidant Early dating: Anxious Things on the verge of becoming very serious: Avoidant Settled into the relationship: Secure (provided not triggered) I actually think from observations a lot of FAs follow a similar pattern where they push everyone away at first, then once they let them in and feel vulnerable the table turns, then once it comes to real commitment they have more avoidant responses. A dance! And I think the best you can do along that road is to be not too clingy or needy, but confident, calm and let her /him know that you have no intention of ever going anywhere. For this situation...man it is a tough position for you to be in, but can I commend you for recognising that by not responding you'd trigger her. You're a good person to have that level of empathy when someone was actually trying to trigger you. this is where the awareness becomes beautiful...without knowing she was FA you might have responded differently. I think you did the right thing sending her a message to be honest (this stopped you from being manipulative yourself and was the grown up response) and I do think she knew you were quiet, even if subconsciously, because the email texting business is classic FA / AP protest behaviours and I have been known to do stuff like this myself (oh the shame) when triggered and panicked. More so when I was much younger, and much less so now. I think her response here is anger at your anger and also a protest behavior rather than anger appropriate to the incident. You did nothing wrong and of course she knows this. She will be back... are you prepared with response? How do you actually feel about this relationship..is it over for you? I think the FA style is so darn complicated that they will struggle to relate safely with anyone who is not secure without driving the other person crazy. "You're a good person to have that level of empathy when someone was actually trying to trigger you. this is where the awareness becomes beautiful...without knowing she was FA you might have responded differently." Thank you for the good person comment. But as I eventually figured out, the "awareness" of her being an FA also made me far too tolerant of the times when being treated badly, and I didn't stand up for myself when I should have. I just did what I thought was right, which was to ignore the treatment - as best I could - and tell her that I loved her and that I was not going anywhere**. It was accepted for a while (I think), but she was also self-aware that she had treated me badly, especially after a break-up/reunion cycle; I had occasional admissions of "I don't deserve X" where X was usually some thing I was doing to try to cheer her up. Anyway, so yeah, telling her I loved her when she knew she had treated me like crap likely only served to reinforce her perception that my love was not real, and/or somehow she was undeserving of it - because treating someone like garbage and then them just ignoring it and saying they love you, well, you're going to start disliking yourself for that if you've got a conscience, and also start losing respect for the person saying it to you. So yeah, knowing _why_ the push cycle occurred only made me even more anxious about the next one. The first few I put down to just uncertainty or whatever, but once I figured out she was FA... well, that was the beginning of the end. "she'll be back, are you prepared with a response?" Frankly, no. I am still negotiating with myself over how I could possibly get back with her but I know I'm just trying to think of a way to get my "fix" to make the pain go away. Really, I am still shocked at the pure intensity of this anxiety that I've been feeling for the last two months since the first cycle started. Also I'm only just starting to realize how this whole push/pull thing also intensifies the "love" that I felt each time we restarted. After all of my reading the last few weeks, I am seriously doubting my own capacity to know anymore if I'm in love. Also the speed at which we seemed to be getting closer, how the first two months were just intoxicating and by month three, she had more or less moved in. Insane. Who the hell am I anymore? ** I really struggle with this day by day, having told her so many times that I would never leave her, that no matter how hard she pushed that I will not abandon her. I feel immense shittiness having of course, abandoned her, even though i was basically pushed over the edge of the boat with a rock chained to my neck. I feel I didn't do enough. I know tacitly that I did way too much, but my gut and subconscious is persecuting me about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 12:04:30 GMT
It's probably somewhere in the middle: We agreed to remain friends, and we were going to try to do something this weekend together. I wanted distance to recover as much as possible before seeing her again, but honestly, I am terrified to see her again. So really, it's a no-win. Ultimately I couldn't hold off on being silent, so I ignored the shitty message she sent as just say "I'm okay." and then added "I'm not trying to hurt you by being silent." to which she replied that she was not hurt and then - almost as if she had no idea I was even cutting contact to zero the last few days, which is hilarious because it's probably true - she realized that I was explicitly being quiet, so she took offence, everything went to sh*t, she said there's no way we can be friends etc, etc. I guess this really triggered her hard, feeling rejected/abandoned etc. So she blocked me on social media. I guess ultimately it's for the best - I no longer have a choice about what I want to do with respect to keeping away. Been there, done that! The trigger for me is manipulation. I don't think much about periods of silence and they don't bother me (people are busy, they're mad, etc), but if I feel like it's been deliberated on and done on purpose, I will suspect manipulation and go bonkers. Interesting Mary! When my DA pretended nothing happened after he did a push, i felt really manipulated and gaslighted. Its like what x0ff said... i chose to ultimately believe that was not his real intention, but interesting how we see each other’s behavior as manipulative. I am currently still withdrawn from my DA as I do not trust much, and he’s been nice so far - I also feel manipulated. Choosing to be withdrawn is exhausting for anxious people; I didn’t do it to elicit a response, I’m doing it to protect myself from being hurt by someone’s dismissiveness. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 12:13:58 GMT
Oh man. Reading this I see how complex the FA style is. In many ways I think the DA or AP is easier to "love" because at least you know what you're dealing with. With an FA, you seem to always be having to guess which side of them needs response at that moment. Like walking a tightrope. I do think in my personal view that each FA has their own line somewhere where they cross between states. For me it's this... Before dating / when he is asking me out: Avoidant Early dating: Anxious Things on the verge of becoming very serious: Avoidant Settled into the relationship: Secure (provided not triggered) I actually think from observations a lot of FAs follow a similar pattern where they push everyone away at first, then once they let them in and feel vulnerable the table turns, then once it comes to real commitment they have more avoidant responses. A dance! And I think the best you can do along that road is to be not too clingy or needy, but confident, calm and let her /him know that you have no intention of ever going anywhere. For this situation...man it is a tough position for you to be in, but can I commend you for recognising that by not responding you'd trigger her. You're a good person to have that level of empathy when someone was actually trying to trigger you. this is where the awareness becomes beautiful...without knowing she was FA you might have responded differently. I think you did the right thing sending her a message to be honest (this stopped you from being manipulative yourself and was the grown up response) and I do think she knew you were quiet, even if subconsciously, because the email texting business is classic FA / AP protest behaviours and I have been known to do stuff like this myself (oh the shame) when triggered and panicked. More so when I was much younger, and much less so now. I think her response here is anger at your anger and also a protest behavior rather than anger appropriate to the incident. You did nothing wrong and of course she knows this. She will be back... are you prepared with response? How do you actually feel about this relationship..is it over for you? I think the FA style is so darn complicated that they will struggle to relate safely with anyone who is not secure without driving the other person crazy. "You're a good person to have that level of empathy when someone was actually trying to trigger you. this is where the awareness becomes beautiful...without knowing she was FA you might have responded differently." Thank you for the good person comment. But as I eventually figured out, the "awareness" of her being an FA also made me far too tolerant of the times when being treated badly, and I didn't stand up for myself when I should have. I just did what I thought was right, which was to ignore the treatment - as best I could - and tell her that I loved her and that I was not going anywhere**. It was accepted for a while (I think), but she was also self-aware that she had treated me badly, especially after a break-up/reunion cycle; I had occasional admissions of "I don't deserve X" where X was usually some thing I was doing to try to cheer her up. Anyway, so yeah, telling her I loved her when she knew she had treated me like crap likely only served to reinforce her perception that my love was not real, and/or somehow she was undeserving of it - because treating someone like garbage and then them just ignoring it and saying they love you, well, you're going to start disliking yourself for that if you've got a conscience, and also start losing respect for the person saying it to you. So yeah, knowing _why_ the push cycle occurred only made me even more anxious about the next one. The first few I put down to just uncertainty or whatever, but once I figured out she was FA... well, that was the beginning of the end. "she'll be back, are you prepared with a response?" Frankly, no. I am still negotiating with myself over how I could possibly get back with her but I know I'm just trying to think of a way to get my "fix" to make the pain go away. Really, I am still shocked at the pure intensity of this anxiety that I've been feeling for the last two months since the first cycle started. Also I'm only just starting to realize how this whole push/pull thing also intensifies the "love" that I felt each time we restarted. After all of my reading the last few weeks, I am seriously doubting my own capacity to know anymore if I'm in love. Also the speed at which we seemed to be getting closer, how the first two months were just intoxicating and by month three, she had more or less moved in. Insane. Who the hell am I anymore? ** I really struggle with this day by day, having told her so many times that I would never leave her, that no matter how hard she pushed that I will not abandon her. I feel immense shittiness having of course, abandoned her, even though i was basically pushed over the edge of the boat with a rock chained to my neck. I feel I didn't do enough. I know tacitly that I did way too much, but my gut and subconscious is persecuting me about it. Sorry to hear that you’re going through this... it’s really tough isn’t it? It’s so many layers of emotions and thoughts, all at the same time, and dissecting it just makes it all very confusing for yourself. What you need is some space for yourself to recover - if you don’t have resources for yourself, you’ll have nothing at all for the rship, whatever form that comes in (even no contact!). I hope you focus on yourself and get better without having to get your fix. Stay strong! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 14:21:37 GMT
Been there, done that! The trigger for me is manipulation. I don't think much about periods of silence and they don't bother me (people are busy, they're mad, etc), but if I feel like it's been deliberated on and done on purpose, I will suspect manipulation and go bonkers. Interesting Mary! When my DA pretended nothing happened after he did a push, i felt really manipulated and gaslighted. Its like what x0ff said... i chose to ultimately believe that was not his real intention, but interesting how we see each other’s behavior as manipulative. I am currently still withdrawn from my DA as I do not trust much, and he’s been nice so far - I also feel manipulated. Choosing to be withdrawn is exhausting for anxious people; I didn’t do it to elicit a response, I’m doing it to protect myself from being hurt by someone’s dismissiveness. I think there is a lack of trust on both sides and both sides feel manipulated at times. Both sides do it to protect oneself. If someone is taking space to protect themself, I am fine with it. If they are doing it, because they are trying to "figure me out" and think it's what I want without asking me, I find that triggering. I think the difference for me versus a lot of situations posted about is I am very direct when I ask for space. Even when the other person knows that I just need some breathing room, they are still hurt and still cannot respect it. On many situations here, I think the communication is poor and both sides are just acting on very little information. |
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