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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 3:16:07 GMT
I think there is too little information here to say what style he may be and what your dynamic is. This could be a typical male, female issue exacerbated by one being ap or it could be something else. He apologized and looked for a solution. It's pretty typical behavior depending on what the issue was. You are looking for something "more". I think we all want to say the perfect thing in the moment but this is real life.
Some people can give that, some people can give it if they know what you want and some can never give it.
Have you told him exactly what it is that you need ?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 3:24:45 GMT
Yes, I do see it but I’m not sure how to go about becoming secure if I don’t recognise that my AP needs are sometimes unreasonable. Breaking up is of course an option, but if I don’t recognise my own issues, I’ll just repeat it with someone else. And that’s what I’m trying to avoid by making sense of my own thought processes. For example, I catch myself thinking that I’m unlovable and just a burden to everyone I care about and how things are better if I just went away. The only way to stop these thoughts, it seems, is just simply don’t get attached to people in general. Secure attachments ideally are the way to go, but clearly, I’m not getting there with the way I think/feel. If you’re telling me breaking up is the only way to go because this is a anxious-avoidant dynamic, I don’t disagree with that. Since you brought up the part about attachment system not being soothed, then I think my question is how do I get to a secure attachment style and leave behind the AP one? I would never presume to tell you what to do. I do, however, think solving an issue is a lot more difficult while you're currently very deep inside it, still, as that prevents you from seeing the bigger picture.Your attachment system going into overdrive like this is because you sense that your partner isn't there in the way that you need him to be. I am inclined to think that this is correct. I also think that you misunderstand the nature of AP attachment. You say that to move from AP to Secure, you need to recognize that your needs are unreasonable. Read that back for me, please. And once more for good measure. Your needs are your needs. Calling them unreasonable won't change that. The nature of being AP, and how it can create a problem in relationships is low self-esteem and the penchant to being hyperalert on any sign of danger to a relationship and resulting anxiety about potential loss of the relationship. In a way, you're too focused on the need and signals of your partner and not enough on your own. The hyperalertness makes you notice every minute difference in how they act and the anxiety makes you label all those changes as a threat to the relationship so you look for validation that the relationship is safe. You're not getting it because your search for validation (activating your attachment system) leads to distancing behaviour in your partner (deactivating his attachment system). You keep triggering each other. This starts a downward spiral unless one of you can stop it.The low self esteem makes it extra hard for an AP to do this, as they don't want to abandon a partner and worry they will never find anyone better or that they might magically turn into the perfect partner after breaking up with them. I think there's another option. Someone who hears these doubts you have, the fear of being unlovable and unloved, of having a relationship crumble to dust if you do the slughtest thing 'wrong', and sitting down with you, giving you a big hug and telling you:
"You're worried. Know that I'm here for you. We may disagree at times, but I love you and I won't leave just because you feel that you said or did something wrong. Whatever problems we run into, we'll fix them together and I'm willing to put in just as much effort to get there as you are. Thank you for sharing this with me and let's talk about how to handle this together."So I see three things here: 1. Purple - Being deep in it makes it hard to resolve the issue. YES I AGREE. I guess I'm trying to do everything I can to work on myself without explicitly harming the relationship but clearly that's not working out. You're right that I'm still activated and I'm trying to get deactivated, but I don't really know how to. On some days I feel good and strong, and then on some days not at all. 2. Blue - Searching for validation. How exactly can one stop? 3. Black - Someone who says these things. Yes, I told him that this would help me alot in feeling secure and reduce my anxiety, which then reduces my issues. He did say these things to some extent, but not so affirmatively and conclusively. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 3:29:28 GMT
i am so glad the article shed some light!! maybe the book will be a great tool too. haha i am glad you aren’t asking for him because it’s just an exercise in futility lol But gaining security inside yourself will empower you so much! Hahaha, I can only work on myself, no time to be everyone’s emotional nanny. I do feel like I’m doing two people’s emotion work though because sometimes I have to be considerate to what he’s dealing with as well. Just because he isn’t a perfect responder doesn’t mean he isn’t trying and hurting as well. I honestly don't think anyone is a perfect responder. The only men I have ever seen be perfect responders are on the Hallmark channel. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 3:30:29 GMT
I think there is too little information here to say what style he may be and what your dynamic is. This could be a typical male, female issue exacerbated by one being ap or it could be something else. He apologized and looked for a solution. It's pretty typical behavior depending on what the issue was. You are looking for something "more". I think we all want to say the perfect thing in the moment but this is real life. Some people can give that, some people can give it if they know what you want and some can never give it. Have you told him exactly what it is that you need ? Yea, precisely that. I feel it's anxious-avoidant, but perhaps not to a great extent. I've asked some other friends who are more secure (i think) and they've said it's sort of normal behavior that men minimize or dismiss - it's their defensive mechanisms and they're trying to protect themselves. I think it's what you said. In the most recent conversation, I have, or think I have. He said he will try his best. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 3:34:28 GMT
Hahaha, I can only work on myself, no time to be everyone’s emotional nanny. I do feel like I’m doing two people’s emotion work though because sometimes I have to be considerate to what he’s dealing with as well. Just because he isn’t a perfect responder doesn’t mean he isn’t trying and hurting as well. I honestly don't think anyone is a perfect responder. The only men I have ever seen be perfect responders are on the Hallmark channel. Exactly Mary. but I can't seem to let go.. which I think begets the question - am I the one holding a grudge to protect myself/create drama/punish him or is he really not doing enough to fulfill my needs. So to Jaeger's point (Gosh I can never seem to remember how to spell your name!), my needs are my needs, and they aren't reasonable --- sometimes, they do feel unreasonable, like wanting him to say the perfect things that Jaeger has typed. I want exactly that. Oh, by the way, we're asian, so i think these concepts are even more novel in our society. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 3:36:02 GMT
Hi all, wanna reach out and ask everyone what their experiences are with DAs taking responsibility for hurting their partners? I was greatly hurt by my DA; we’ve since “made up” and so I’ve tried to reach out to him over the past two months multiple times to mend the rift and sense make the episode, I guess in an attempt to rebuild my trust in him/us via having my feelings acknowledged and building a clear narrative around what happened that involves both our inputs. He started off dismissing then minimising which triggered even more anxiety and anger in me. When pushed, he would grudgingly (I feel) apologize just to get it over with and then come back to finding a solution. It came to a head a couple of nights ago where I sort of imploded and we had another “talk”, where it was about how I hold resentment and not talk to him about it. My point was talking to him was unsafe for me because he would dismiss it. Again, it was all about how he didn’t intend to do that and it became a discussion of what I can do (as opposed to what he could do). And, it was never fully acknowledged his role and behaviours. While I acknowledge that there are parts I could have done better, it was all rather frustrating for me to feel like he was blameless and he came in to save the day with his logical solutions of “just tell me” (which I already know but it doesn’t work if you don’t have the psychological safety!). So now I feel patronised and dissatisfied and frankly, quite put out by it all. So then it becomes - are APs not letting go or require much more elaborate apologies and acknowledgements vs DAs don’t take responsibilities? Anyone? You're getting into a factual discussion while the underlying attachment issues are not addressed. If your question is whether that is avoidant behaviour, my answer would be yes. It also does nothing to take away your frustration as your attachment system will never be soothed by this and it even has you questioning whether or not having your attachment needs met is valid. Spinning it so that it's your problem is a deactivation strategy and tends to lead to you not bringing up the issue again if repeated enough. Does this lie with the AP or the DA, you ask. It lies in the interaction. You're both stuck in these roles and I think the one with the most ability to see and act on this is you. This is a clear anxious-avoidant pattern and will most likely make the AP even more anxious if it continues, in my humble opinion (and personal experience). , what did you do to help yourself? What was your experience? |
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Post by cardinal on Feb 19, 2018 3:37:44 GMT
I would never presume to tell you what to do. I do, however, think solving an issue is a lot more difficult while you're currently very deep inside it, still, as that prevents you from seeing the bigger picture.Your attachment system going into overdrive like this is because you sense that your partner isn't there in the way that you need him to be. I am inclined to think that this is correct. I also think that you misunderstand the nature of AP attachment. You say that to move from AP to Secure, you need to recognize that your needs are unreasonable. Read that back for me, please. And once more for good measure. Your needs are your needs. Calling them unreasonable won't change that. The nature of being AP, and how it can create a problem in relationships is low self-esteem and the penchant to being hyperalert on any sign of danger to a relationship and resulting anxiety about potential loss of the relationship. In a way, you're too focused on the need and signals of your partner and not enough on your own. The hyperalertness makes you notice every minute difference in how they act and the anxiety makes you label all those changes as a threat to the relationship so you look for validation that the relationship is safe. You're not getting it because your search for validation (activating your attachment system) leads to distancing behaviour in your partner (deactivating his attachment system). You keep triggering each other. This starts a downward spiral unless one of you can stop it.The low self esteem makes it extra hard for an AP to do this, as they don't want to abandon a partner and worry they will never find anyone better or that they might magically turn into the perfect partner after breaking up with them. I think there's another option. Someone who hears these doubts you have, the fear of being unlovable and unloved, of having a relationship crumble to dust if you do the slughtest thing 'wrong', and sitting down with you, giving you a big hug and telling you:
"You're worried. Know that I'm here for you. We may disagree at times, but I love you and I won't leave just because you feel that you said or did something wrong. Whatever problems we run into, we'll fix them together and I'm willing to put in just as much effort to get there as you are. Thank you for sharing this with me and let's talk about how to handle this together."So I see three things here: 1. Purple - Being deep in it makes it hard to resolve the issue. YES I AGREE. I guess I'm trying to do everything I can to work on myself without explicitly harming the relationship but clearly that's not working out. You're right that I'm still activated and I'm trying to get deactivated, but I don't really know how to. On some days I feel good and strong, and then on some days not at all. 2. Blue - Searching for validation. How exactly can one stop? 3. Black - Someone who says these things. Yes, I told him that this would help me alot in feeling secure and reduce my anxiety, which then reduces my issues. He did say these things to some extent, but not so affirmatively and conclusively. I'm a little burnt out from a long day so sorry if my post seems jumbled. 1. What helped me to stop fixating on my FA was to go no contact (we're no longer speaking, likely for good). That'd be too drastic for you right now, but something like a short or long break from your partner or taking the next few weeks to focus on other areas of your life might be helpful to give you distance from the situation to look at it more objectively. 2. This won't sound very helpful, and you're likely aware of this, but all you can do is find security outside of the relationship/within yourself. The core issue of being AP is having low self-worth and the urge to 'medicate' it through being loved by another; the natural 'fix' for that is to not need another person to give you self-worth. As long as you consciously or unconsciously seek others to fill that for you, you will not be secure. Another 'fix' is to learn to assume your partner loves you and to bring your awareness to that, rather than looking for evidence that he may not love you. It all really boils down to self-love and faith. 3. This is another wall in the AP/DA dance. He is giving you affirmation, but it's not quite the affirmation you want because your APness will find something for you to feel insecure about. You can discuss it with him how exactly you'd like him to give you that affirmation, but imo the best thing you can do in a situation like that where he is compromising is to do a bit of compromise yourself ("He gave me what I wanted, and said that he cares, even if how he said it doesn't make me feel loved, I should be aware that he is showing it to me and does care, otherwise he wouldn't have done it"). |
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Post by Jaeger on Feb 19, 2018 3:41:20 GMT
So I see three things here: 1. Purple - Being deep in it makes it hard to resolve the issue. YES I AGREE. I guess I'm trying to do everything I can to work on myself without explicitly harming the relationship but clearly that's not working out. You're right that I'm still activated and I'm trying to get deactivated, but I don't really know how to. On some days I feel good and strong, and then on some days not at all. It's not working out because as you try to dial down your own activation, your partner's deactivation turns it up again. It's like one of those on/off switches; you flick it down, then he flicks it up again, continually. Ideally? By getting validation. That gives you the reassurance you need to let go of the hyperactivation, little by little, if it's given consistently. Inconcistency is likely to exacerbate the issue. Also, to me, the advice of becoming completely self-sufficient here is an impossibility and somewhat defeats the purpose if being together in the first place. There's dependence in every relationship. Maybe one of your relationship needs is for someone who can empathize emotionally, and not just intellectually. The main difference here is that with the first, you actually FEEL understood, where in the second you hear the words but they feel 'hollow', in a sense. This is something that especially dismissive avoidants tend to struggle with. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 3:44:18 GMT
I honestly don't think anyone is a perfect responder. The only men I have ever seen be perfect responders are on the Hallmark channel. Exactly Mary. but I can't seem to let go.. which I think begets the question - am I the one holding a grudge to protect myself/create drama/punish him or is he really not doing enough to fulfill my needs. So to Jaeger's point (Gosh I can never seem to remember how to spell your name!), my needs are my needs, and they aren't reasonable --- sometimes, they do feel unreasonable, like wanting him to say the perfect things that Jaeger has typed. I want exactly that. Oh, by the way, we're asian, so i think these concepts are even more novel in our society. I so get it. I think when we are little girls, we watch men say the most wonderful things in movies and we dream of the guy that's going to say all the right things at the right time. We'd never have a problem if they all said those wonderful things all the time, right? It's a great fantasy. Plus, it's easy to type wonderful things onto a keyboard when you're not in the moment and clouded with emotions and past history. I think we all have to look at what's reasonable, what's possible with this particular person and then decide if this person can come close. No one will hit the mark each and every time. We are all human. I think if you have told him what you need and he is willing to try, you are both working on it. In return, you will work on seeing his efforts, fulfilling yourself some more and continuing to communicate with him. Being Asian does put some spin on it (btw I am). I think it's meaningful to take that into account as well. |
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Post by Jaeger on Feb 19, 2018 3:54:01 GMT
Jaeger, what did you do to help yourself? What was your experience? That's a very long story, all written up on these boards. In short, I am not an AP but spiralled down into avoidant patterns to maintain my relationship. It eventually ended when she cheated on me and broke up with me and through the subsequent months I got back to my secure self and have felt better ever since. Any form of anxious behaviour I now detect within myself is a major sign of a rrlationship being unhealthy for me and would be a reason to break it off quite quickly, but that hasn't happened yet as I know very well what I need and will or won't accept. |
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Post by Jaeger on Feb 19, 2018 4:05:25 GMT
Exactly Mary. but I can't seem to let go.. which I think begets the question - am I the one holding a grudge to protect myself/create drama/punish him or is he really not doing enough to fulfill my needs. So to Jaeger's point (Gosh I can never seem to remember how to spell your name!), my needs are my needs, and they aren't reasonable --- sometimes, they do feel unreasonable, like wanting him to say the perfect things that Jaeger has typed. I want exactly that. Oh, by the way, we're asian, so i think these concepts are even more novel in our society. I so get it. I think when we are little girls, we watch men say the most wonderful things in movies and we dream of the guy that's going to say all the right things at the right time. We'd never have a problem if they all said those wonderful things all the time, right? It's a great fantasy. Plus, it's easy to type wonderful things onto a keyboard when you're not in the moment and clouded with emotions and past history. I think we all have to look at what's reasonable, what's possible with this particular person and then decide if this person can come close. No one will hit the mark each and every time. We are all human. I think if you have told him what you need and he is willing to try, you are both working on it. In return, you will work on seeing his efforts, fulfilling yourself some more and continuing to communicate with him. Being Asian does put some spin on it (btw I am). I think it's meaningful to take that into account as well. We'll have to agree to disagree here. I think it's a lot less about the words than about what the underlying message is. As said, this tends to be a distinction that is hard for the dismissively avoidant to apply but makes a lot of difference in communication. I also think that we differ in views on the influence of attachment style in determining how likely a relationship is to succeed and how it affects the relationship satisfaction of those involved in it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 4:18:47 GMT
I so get it. I think when we are little girls, we watch men say the most wonderful things in movies and we dream of the guy that's going to say all the right things at the right time. We'd never have a problem if they all said those wonderful things all the time, right? It's a great fantasy. Plus, it's easy to type wonderful things onto a keyboard when you're not in the moment and clouded with emotions and past history. I think we all have to look at what's reasonable, what's possible with this particular person and then decide if this person can come close. No one will hit the mark each and every time. We are all human. I think if you have told him what you need and he is willing to try, you are both working on it. In return, you will work on seeing his efforts, fulfilling yourself some more and continuing to communicate with him. Being Asian does put some spin on it (btw I am). I think it's meaningful to take that into account as well. We'll have to agree to disagree here. I think it's a lot less about the words than about what the underlying message is. As said, this tends to be a distinction that is hard for the dismissively avoidant to apply but makes a lot of difference in communication. I also think that we differ in views on the influence of attachment style in determining how likely a relationship is to succeed and how it affects the relationship satisfaction of those involved in it. I agree that we disagree  . There is a difference in typical communication between men and women (not all), but the hallmark channel and romance novels were created for women and there is a truth to why they were created. I also see that I have less trouble in my communication style (being DA) because I date men. I believe there is more of a marked difference with DA men that date women because there is an added gender difference. Also, my experience dating APs is that the actual words do matter a LOT. They want reassurance and in a very specific way. I do have better communication with secure men because I do give reassurance, but not in the way that an AP can hear all the time. I do believe that attachment style can influence a relationship and heavily at times. In this particular case. I don't even know if this man is DA at all. Just not enough here to jump to that conclusion in my opinion. But that's why we are all here. To throw out our own opinions and see what jumps out at people to make sense of their situation. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 4:20:28 GMT
i was going on the OP’s statement that her partner is DA?
is that not the case?
so confusing, all of this that follows lol!
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Post by Jaeger on Feb 19, 2018 4:27:43 GMT
Also, my experience dating APs is that the actual words do matter a LOT. They want reassurance and in a very specific way. Funnily enough, that signifies to me that it is less about the words while it does the opposite for you. We definitely agree on that one. And to learn one or two things about ourselves along the way. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 4:39:25 GMT
i was going on the OP’s statement that her partner is DA? is that not the case? so confusing, all of this that follows lol! Right! That was my point. Does anyone really know if he is DA? |
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. There is a difference in typical communication between men and women (not all), but the hallmark channel and romance novels were created for women and there is a truth to why they were created. I also see that I have less trouble in my communication style (being DA) because I date men. I believe there is more of a marked difference with DA men that date women because there is an added gender difference.