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Post by loulou on Jul 17, 2016 4:34:07 GMT
Hi Jeb and everyone, I just realized my boyfriend of a year may be dismissive avoidant (and ordered your book, Jeb!). We're sort of long distance. Half the time he lives in my town/half the time in another country for work. When he's here, we see each other once or twice a week, usually on weekends, and text most days. (I also, at his request, stayed with him in the other country for a week and it went great.) At one point, when he was here, I asked to see him during the week, rather than just weekends, and he said he was surprised i wanted to see him that much. That prompted a conversation about our relationship ... He said he loves spending time with me and thinks we have a lot in common. He said he's often distant in relationships, likes alone time, is very independent and never thinks about a future that involves marriage (not that we're even close to that). He also said he only has seen me sporadically because he doesn't want anyone to get too attached when he doesn't live here. He said he understood if I couldn't handle this, would be fine if I broke it off and didn't want to hurt me. He also said he has no idea why he's this way. I started googling and, after realizing he's probably avoidant, I remembered he's said people have called him arrogant, distant and grumpy -- although I haven't seen that from him. I actually think he's quite affectionate (even more so after our conversation), always tries to cheer me up when I've had a bad day, is true to his word, responds quickly when I text and said he isn't one to sleep around (which I believe) -- all things that seem to go against the typical DA, from what I've read so far. I guess I was curious about two things: 1. Should I gently tell him that he might have this? 2. Do you think that because this is long distance, this works for him? If he moves here (which he may for work), do you think things will change? (Obviously no one can predict things from a post, just curious what's typical.) I'm comfortable taking this slowly (especially now that I understand), but I also don't want to stay in this relationship for no reason. I don't want to end things, but I also don't want to get more invested unnecessarily. He said he thinks we could be lifelong friends if I wanted to stop dating, would that be smarter? Thanks so much for your insight! |
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Post by Jo on Jul 17, 2016 7:25:37 GMT
Hi, your boyfriend does appear to have avoidant traits. It's possible that you aren't seeing some of the other characteristics that others have seen because you are calm, tolerant and undemanding. To answer your questions:
1. I would be wary raising it. It depends on how self aware he is. He is not in denial, but has not yet worked out why he is like this. He may perceive your discussion as criticism or an attack, even 'though it isn't. He might feel exposed, and this could trigger him closing down, and a display of the traits you haven't yet seen. Whether you raise it or not is a matter of your good judgement.
2. Yes, it is very likely that he prefers long-distance relationships. Some non-avoidants do, if they are into building a career, but that could be something you could ask him about if you haven't already. He wouldnt perceive that as an attack - we hope. If he is a true avoidant, he won't completely change, but he can adjust, if he makes the choice to do so, if he is very self aware, and if you are accepting and tolerant of the things that you will almost certainly never get.
Thats the important bit really - you. You don't say how old you are, or what you would like from a relationship. It sounds like he is getting what he needs, but are you? If you would like more, then you will need to seriously consider this. Being friends could work, but only if you have exhausted all the emotional stuff. If you found out that he was with someone else, how would that make you feel?
i hope this helps a little.
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katy
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Post by katy on Jul 17, 2016 14:08:56 GMT
A large part of my work life I was a "road warrior" like your boyfriend. Your post brought up some thoughts about the road warrior world. I don't think I'm an avoidant, but I also feel that I'm pretty independent. I've always been extremely loyal to my husband and to our animals (we don't have children) and to good friends. When I was out of town, I easily got to know many people and situationally bonded with them at work. But, at the end of the day, they went home to their families and I went back to my hotel or corporate apartment and had the opportunity to explore a new place, which I loved.
An interesting thing happened once at work. A small company headquarters was installing a huge new computer system for all of their hundreds of branches. The project was going to take almost a year. At the headquarters, they had a group of five senior technical consultants, including me. None of the consultants had known each other before and we didn't socialize after work. One day, one of the company employees come into the consultant workroom and said that all of the people in one of the departments knew that we were all so homesick and they wanted to invite us out for a special dinner. It was a kind gesture, and all of us accepted. But, when the woman walked out of the room, the conversation veered to Who's Homesick? Of course, nobody was homesick. Something about the road warriort life was obviously appealing to all of us or we wouldn't have been doing it for years and years.
So, you may be dealing with a person who a different view of interactions with people than the person who hates to travel and wants to stay in one community and build very strong bonds.
Also, when you are a road warrior, your time is typically not your own during the work week. You're typically brought in for an advanced skill set, often on a major project with tight time deadlines. It's not nine-to-five work where you can walk out at a scheduled time at the end of the day to go on a date. I remember one time when I was working on a project locally so I was coming home every night. On our wedding anniversary, my husband and I had planned to go out to dinner. At the last minute, the company team lead (the person who decided if I was kept on the project or not) walked up to me and said that he needed some critical work done by the next morning. My husband and I decided that it was more financially advantageous if I stayed and completed the work instead of insisting on leaving on time and jeopardizing the contract. We had sandwiches, at home, at 9:30 pm for our anniversary dinner.
So, you may very well be dealing with an avoidant, but you are also probably dealing with a person who has a different relationship to people and to work priorities than most people. If your boyfriend gets transferred to where you live and settles there full time, it will probably be a better test of the possibility for a long-term relationship. But, if he settles in your town, don't be surprised if he ends of travelling again. If that's the right job for somebody, they will often build it into their lives.
Also, if he's from a different country, do you both speak the same native language, or is one of you speaking a second language in your relationship? My suspicion is that relationships always face a barrier when one person is from a different culture and has to speak a 2nd language. Also, if you are from different cultures, he may have reservations about how happy you would be moving to his location full-time. It's one thing to date somebody casually. It's another thing to move a person into a completely different world and ask them / help them to do whatever is necessary to fit into a new world.
Also, as Jo said, going from romance to friends would be almost impossible - would you like to hear about his new girlfriends? In my mind, that would probably be heart-breaking.
Best wishes,
Katy |
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Post by loulou on Jul 17, 2016 21:41:10 GMT
Thank you both SO MUCH for your thoughtful responses. They have really given me great perspective and you have no idea how much it means that you've taken so much time to help.
Jo -- Thank you so much for saying that about how he would respond to me sharing that with him. I hadn't thought of that angle and I completely see what you mean -- I won't say a word about it. We're both in our mid- to late-30s and I'm very willing to take it slow (I like that, actually). But, the more I read, I worry that our relationship has plateaued. I hope not. I see he's making an effort to see me a teeny tiny bit more when he's in town, now that he knows I'm interested in doing so, but I'm not pushing for more and just waiting to see what happens. It's weird, a part of me hopes to get a deeper relationship with him as time goes on and I'm happy to be somewhat independent, but I'm not even sure the minimum intimacy I would need to be happy and what he'll be able to give (from what I've read, not much more than this, I guess). Maybe I'll get a better idea if/when he moves here and we're together more consistently?
Katy -- I don't know anyone else who travels like he does, so that's a fascinating and useful insight. I think the flights/trains and various time zones exhaust him, but, like you, I don't think he's ever homesick (and that's so sweet about your anniversary dinner. I'm sure late sandwiches had it's romantic qualities, too!). But that's interesting what you said about being independent and not avoidant ... I was thinking his job fed into his DA tendencies, as he wouldn't need to form deep relationships with coworkers (though he keeps in touch with many of them casually), but that may be completely off the mark and the two may very well be mutually exclusive. Oh, and he's from England and I'm American, so we have a (mostly) shared language. And even though I think I'm fairly easygoing and fine finding my own way, it would be a lot of pressure on him for me to move there when I know nothing/nobody. I felt guilty enough relying on him when I went to visit!
But, I agree with both of you, being friends would be difficult. I actually told him I didn't know if I could do it, and I hadn't even considered the new girlfriend element. That would be heartbreaking.
Thanks again for your thoughtful responses. I've been apprehensive about bringing this up to friends of mine, so your views and perspectives are tremendously valuable.
Best wishes to you both.
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katy
Sticky Post Powers
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Post by katy on Jul 17, 2016 23:18:34 GMT
I thought some more about what I had written earlier and how I related to people when I was at home and on the road. I don't think I'm avoidant but I'm very selective about the people with whom I develop long-term, bonded relationships. I'm a good conversationalist and I have lots of curiosity about people, events, and facts. At airports, on planes, at consulting assignments, I'd very quickly have very profound conversations with people. As just one example, I worked quite a bit in Fort Myers, Florida and, the year before, a very severe, freak hurricane had hit and people had life-shattering stories to tell. I had very meaningful conversations with many people about their near-death experiences but they knew that I was there on a temporary basis, so there wasn't an expectation from either of us of a long-term relationship. Us knowing each other was a fascinating moment in time. In fact, sad-to-say, I don't even remember the names of many of those people but I absolutely remember their stories.
Traveling for work is exhausting, but I don't think that's the root of the issue. When you travel quite a bit, after a while, people almost seem to be like actors in a play. You're kind to them and they're kind to you, but then you move on to the next company to do another project. Sometimes people stay in touch when you leave a project, but that's pretty rare.
With people with whom I feel permanently close (there are probably too few of them because I was always on the move) I'm fully loyal and bonded and care very deeply about them. As an aside, I'm sure that the reason that the avoidant / narcissist whom I knew hurt me deeply when he rejected me was because I knew him long enough, and, I thought, well enough, that I let him into my inner circle where I thought of him as a long-term friend and cared about his welfare.
It will be interesting to see who your boyfriend really is. Is he an avoidant or is he a road warrior who is not used to developing long-term bonds with many people, especially on the road?
Also, if things turn out to be serious and you get a chance to move to England, I'm sure you'll do fine. When I was in my late twenties I moved to Canada for several years. It's not quite as different as England, but it is different and I did fine. People are very nice all over the world.
Good luck,
Katy
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Post by loulou on Jul 18, 2016 2:37:40 GMT
Hi Katy,
From all that you've described, I don't think it seems like you're avoidant. I think a lot of people are selective about who they let in (to differing degrees, of course). I do the same thing and I think it's more because I'm an introvert than anything else -- and the friends I do have are like family.
Everyone has to adapt to their choice of work, you gain skills and learn how to handle everything that's thrown at you. For you and everyone in a job like yours, including my boyfriend, you need to connect with people, but not get too involved because you're never going to see them again. It's not that you're avoiding the relationship or pushing them away, it would just be inconvenient and exhausting for both of you to continue after the project is done. I never thought of it that way, but it makes total sense. What's funny is my boyfriend said people with whom he has worked have told him pretty big secrets -- like a guy whose entire job involves sharp vision told him he was losing his sight and faking it so he could still get work. It sounds like you're the same way and that's pretty awesome, especially for the people with whom you connect.
I think my boyfriend shows some signs of being an avoidant, but maybe not as many as I initially thought. He actually chose this job years before he started traveling with it and, it turns out, he loves the travel aspect. So maybe you're right ... that's just the road warrior rather than the avoidant coming out. That makes me hopeful! He's one of the kindest, most interesting people I've dated, so I'm really hoping what we have only changes for the better.
What happened with your friend, if it's not rude to ask? (If you don't want to talk about it or outlined it in another thread, let me know, it won't hurt my feelings.) I think it does help you take things less personally when you identify what causes someone to react like that -- at least it helps me!
And, you're right, as you get older you get stuck in your ways and forget that it would be easy to move anywhere. Might be exciting, actually, if it happens.
Thanks so much for writing me about all this. I know I said it before, but it really does help me understand things through different eyes. I appreciate it.
Best wishes.
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Post by Mary on Jul 21, 2016 23:50:05 GMT
I have a slightly different perspective on your question. After a year of dating someone, I would think that you can be open and honest with him. I wouldn't tell him he is avoidant as you don't know, but have a conversation about it. His childhood history may give you some further clues. I am fairly certain an avoidant is created and not born. I actually wish someone had asked me the question years ago and maybe it would have saved me some time. If he is somewhat self-aware, he will think about it.
It could be that the long distance nature does appeal to him or it may not. I am an avoidant and I can't stand long distance relationships. I prefer short amounts of time with someone new, so long distance creates times where you will see the person for longer periods of time at one time. The week that you spent with him would never work for me.
I don't think there is enough information here to say if he is or not, but if he is, your willingness to take things slow and not push will go a long way in my opinion.
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Post by loulou on Jul 23, 2016 3:13:58 GMT
Hi Mary,
Thanks so much for your message. That's such great insight.
May I ask a couple follow ups? First, do you feel suffocated in relationships? My boyfriend once mentioned that he felt that way in few of his past romantic relationships -- and I was thinking that *could* be part of his avoidant nature (although he doesn't seem to feel that way about friendships). If yes, are there triggers for feeling that way? I'm not saying his would be the same as yours, I guess I'm curious if there's a way around it if we go slow or if it's inevitable that he'll feel that way (if he is an avoidant, of course)? He tends to hold his cards a little close to the vest, but I do feel he's open when I ask direct questions -- and I always assure him I just want to understand him, not try to change him or anything. I guess I'm just worried, after all I've read, that he'll turn around one day and be a totally different person. It would break my heart.
Also, what steps have you taken to overcome this, after you realized you are an avoidant? Is therapy basically the only thing that can get you through it?
I think I might try to find a way to bring it up in a "Have you heard of this?" kind of way. After our conversation about the relationship I think I realized he's more self-aware than I would have imagined, so I think he might be open to hearing it ... fingers crossed. And if I bring it up in a non-confrontational/non-blaming/non-judgmental way, you think that would work? Again, I haven't a clue if this is really his issue with relationships ... as Katy said, it might just be that he likes traveling and that kind of nomadic life.
Anyway, thanks again for chiming in. I really appreciate your insight. This community is really incredible, I'm so happy I found it!
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Post by Mary on Jul 23, 2016 16:25:09 GMT
Hi loulou, In the past. I have felt suffocated in relationships. However, I feel very different with my current boyfriend. My past boyfriends were very anxious and would push/try to move the relationship faster than I could go. They were very needy for constant reassurance and would never allow me time for myself. Therefore I felt suffocated constantly. It was different with my current boyfriend from the beginning. He's stable, allows me time for myself when I need it, is very patient/understanding and doesn't pressure me. I always say he "stays in one place", which means if I need alone time, he says ok, just let me know when you are ready to talk. He doesn't bug me for reassurance that I won't stay away forever. He's confident that I will "come back" when I'm ready and it works. We have moved forward at a much slower pace than I imagine others do, but he loves me and says it's worth the wait because there is no rush and we have a great time together. It's not a relationship type that everyone can handle, but he says for him, it's easy. I guess you just have to find the right match and then it's not hard. I think that a lot of people on here have come into contact with people that are avoidant as well as narcissistic. That's a tough combination. I think that avoidants who are not narcissists are able to be self aware and work on the avoidant piece with the right partner. Narcissists probably cannot and will have a fake facade that will eventually change. Not ALL avoidants are narcissists, but I am guessing most narcissists are avoidant, so they get intertwined a lot. I can tell you that I am avoidant, but I am the same person the first day you know me to the last. I would think after a year, you would have a pretty good sense of who he is. I think that everyone triggers differently, but my triggers are people that want to get close fast, that need constant reassurance that I love them, and people that get mad when I need alone time. My boyfriend has helped me so much by telling me he doesn't judge me for my past, going at the pace that is comfortable for me and just being confident that I love him even if I don't always show it or say it. He's not a saint (lol), he has his faults too, but in this aspect, he knows what I need. I did do a lot of therapy and it did help me a lot to figure out why I am this way. However, it didn't teach me how to have a relationship or how to let people be close. That was something that you have to learn how to cope with and I made a ton of mistakes. I actually told my current bf that I am avoidant and he read up on it and it helped him to understand me more. Whatever conversation you have, I would take it slow. Don't try to get too many answers at once. Maybe you could find out more about his childhood, his relationship with his parents, etc. The parental attachment piece I think is key. Does he have a close relationship with his parents? The key is a no pressure conversation. Pressure for information or of any kind makes me want to run for the hills. I hope this helps a little. I can only tell you from my own experience and everyone is different, but reading and research can only help.  |
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Post by Jo on Jul 24, 2016 6:24:05 GMT
Hi, thank you Mary. You have echoed what my partner has said about me, but I appreciate you saying it too, as he shares what 'makes you run for the hills'. Re: reading and research - I have read, read, researched and read again. This is something that my long-term partner has noticed about me, and, according to him, makes me different from others. If you do this, you might find you might find yourself delving into 'deeper' works than the mainstream literature. The latter is very useful, but like anyone else, each avoidant is different and one size doesn't fit all. Some of it will be painful to read, but a lot of it may well be the key to your mutual understanding and acceptance of one another, and hopefully it will help you. Best wishes, Jo
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Post by Jo on Jul 24, 2016 9:05:33 GMT
Hi - that was response was for Loulou, but with thanks to Mary too. Sorry if it looked a bit wrong.... J
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Post by loulou on Jul 25, 2016 2:26:53 GMT
Thank you so much Mary & Jo! Mary, This is so incredibly helpful. I personally don't know anyone with this who is aware he/she has it, so it's great to get such honest answers from that perspective. First off, it sounds like you have an awesome boyfriend! I'm glad you said that about the link to narcissism. I'd read about the connection, but it made it seem like if you had one, you had the other ... I'm glad to know that's not true. And thanks for sharing your triggers, too. From what he has said, it could be that he's got similar things that set him off. (Again, I'm not sure he is avoidant, he might just hate relationships or something, but I'm just trying to understand all the pieces before mentioning it to him.) I will try to bring it up the next time he's in town (probably not cool to do over text/phone!) -- and I will go slow, just like you said. I actually think I have a female friend with this same issue, so I may do a practice round on her first. But thank you again for being so open, this is wonderful information. Jo, Thanks for that suggestion, too! I think I'm getting to that point now. Do you have any suggestions of where to go? I think my book will arrive this week (fingers crossed), too, which I hope will help. |
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