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Post by ocarina on Feb 25, 2018 12:51:06 GMT
So - things are good for the most part - I am looking forward to Spring here with new hope, doing plenty of self care, exercise, just entered a big race for the Autumn, all kinds of other plans coming to fruition.
The frustration is really coming from me - I have been seeing the ex on and off - we've been out walking and of course it's great, all still there in terms of connection etc Each time I vow to bring up the elephant in the room - the us subject. Each time I don't - we talk about everything under the sun and he's full of how lucky he feels to spend time with me, what a privilege etc etc but at the same time I have no idea if he wants more - if he's working on anything himself or whatever. Of course he must feel the same about me.
So here we are two emotional cripples stuck in the never ending dance of not quite there yet - I don't want to be stuck - not sure if you've seen the film The remains of the day?" It's a bit like that (great film btw).
I like things black and white - what is my responsibility here? What's his? What to do!!!!!
Maybe there aren't answers to this _ I am moving on with my own wonderful personal thirty days of behaving as though I love myself - meditating, sitting with this stuff but it remains stuck in the back of my mind - every time he calls I think should I go? Shouldn't I? Nothing physical here of course - very clear boundaries on that and not going out in the evening etc again - too much like dating for me to go there. Not putting life on hold either. So there is some progress my side.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 14:39:38 GMT
hi ocarina,
how difficult, emotionally!
my perspective is that ambiguity means = no clear intention = crazymaking situation.
any relationship that is going somewhere good has intention behind it. and it's not at all unreasonable to ask pointed questions about intention, and the direction of the relationship. otherwise it's just passing time and emotionalmindfuckery.
if he doesn't have a clear , communicated intention of what he is cultivating with you, (buddy, loneliness soother, companion, future committed relationship) then he doesn't have adequate respect for you. all of us cultivate relationships , of every kind with a sense of why we are doing what we are doing. . My ex was happy to get some attention from me post breakup but when i asked that he state his intention clearly it hadn't budged from when i broke up and i cut him off because he was just taking care of some ego/comfort needs while messing with my mind.
i don't know what your situation truly is so i am not trying to project that. but you deserve to know EXACTLY what his intention is, as well as yours. and people with mutual intentions that match don't run around the bush they communicate it. when there is a mismatch and ambiguity, there's trouble. you shouldn't have to guess when your heart and mind are involved, you shouldn't!
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Post by ocarina on Feb 25, 2018 15:03:58 GMT
Thank you so very much Tgat - that was exactly what I needed to hear - it is very difficult I feel permenantly stuck in some kind of horrible limbo.
I am a tough (well avoidant anyway!) switched on, cool (maybe a bit too) OK kind of woman and generally pretty darn sane - but you're right the ambiguity is indeed completely crazy making.
I am blaming myself perhaps a little bit much here - the question does need to be asked - and he's welcome also to ask it of me. This is some kind of insane dance that is keeping me stuck in a painful groove.
No more!
BTW I really liked your description of feeling emotion in a physical way - this is exactly where I am focusing and it's been so very useful. Feelings are wierd old things when you're FA - there's a swing between excess and nothing at all which can make it a bit scary trying to even go there - but go there I will.
Hope all is good with you.
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Post by ocarina on Feb 25, 2018 15:24:05 GMT
One thing to add - I do need to take responsibility for putting myself into the mindfuckerry line of fire - ie accepting the invites which I now know will trigger anxiety.
Am hoping a plan of asking and really listening to what he has to say will clear things up for me - if what he has to say is same old same old ie can't do relationships but want you in my life, then the decision to cut ties will be easy. My pattern is to sort myself out enough to a point where I feel fine and then get hooked in - boundaries are there but maybe the emotional ones not quite so strong as I would like to think.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 15:57:23 GMT
One thing to add - I do need to take responsibility for putting myself into the mindfuckerry line of fire - ie accepting the invites which I now know will trigger anxiety. Am hoping a plan of asking and really listening to what he has to say will clear things up for me - if what he has to say is same old same old ie can't do relationships but want you in my life, then the decision to cut ties will be easy. My pattern is to sort myself out enough to a point where I feel fine and then get hooked in - boundaries are there but maybe the emotional ones not quite so strong as I would like to think. yep- define it! then you are empowered to make conscious, deliberate choices for YOU. emotionally unavailable people will never do that for you. they will just remain ambiguous and hope you'll go along with it. it works for them. and if you are passive and participate, they have a right to assume it works for you too. its so great to have this forum. whenever i am confronting something about all this these days, i recall the names of the people on this forum who will support me, no matter what happens, i can bring it here and unpack it and celebrate or grieve, i can go through it honestly, with support. it gives me the courage to do right by me, that's my new normal. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 16:37:35 GMT
ocarina, as a fellow practitioner of buddhist philosophy, once i anazlyzed ny situation and saw clear manifestation of delusion, greed, and aversion, operating within both of us, i was able to clearly identify what my work to do is. and while i do have feeling around it, i see it is our human condition and i don't have to internalize it so personally. we are stuck. we all are. until we liberate ourselves .if it didn't work for me to see it this way, i sure wouldn't. but it empowers me every time. and i am healing!
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Post by ocarina on Feb 26, 2018 0:09:01 GMT
ocarina , as a fellow practitioner of buddhist philosophy, once i anazlyzed ny situation and saw clear manifestation of delusion, greed, and aversion, operating within both of us, i was able to clearly identify what my work to do is. and while i do have feeling around it, i see it is our human condition and i don't have to internalize it so personally. we are stuck. we all are. until we liberate ourselves .if it didn't work for me to see it this way, i sure wouldn't. but it empowers me every time. and i am healing! Interesting - I have never thought to do this - we both have a swinging pendulum of the greed and aversion which knocks against each other and creates unpleasant destabilisation. When you have a moment would you be able to explain in more detail how you applied this to your relationship? I do see that in life these are so often our unconscious drivers and the sources of our suffering - hard to imagine what things would be like without them. One thing I struggle with is the view that if I work hard on myself and release myself from these three - the greed, aversion and delusion - shouldn't I become fine with whatever is? At this stage what happens to my "needs" - do they disappear? Not sure if I have explained this very well - but I do have a niggling voice in my head that suggests that if I was really OK inside, I wouldn't be sent into an emotional headspin by the current emotionalmindfuckery (my new favourite word thank you God). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 4:07:00 GMT
ocarina , as a fellow practitioner of buddhist philosophy, once i anazlyzed ny situation and saw clear manifestation of delusion, greed, and aversion, operating within both of us, i was able to clearly identify what my work to do is. and while i do have feeling around it, i see it is our human condition and i don't have to internalize it so personally. we are stuck. we all are. until we liberate ourselves .if it didn't work for me to see it this way, i sure wouldn't. but it empowers me every time. and i am healing! Interesting - I have never thought to do this - we both have a swinging pendulum of the greed and aversion which knocks against each other and creates unpleasant destabilisation. When you have a moment would you be able to explain in more detail how you applied this to your relationship? I do see that in life these are so often our unconscious drivers and the sources of our suffering - hard to imagine what things would be like without them. One thing I struggle with is the view that if I work hard on myself and release myself from these three - the greed, aversion and delusion - shouldn't I become fine with whatever is? At this stage what happens to my "needs" - do they disappear? Not sure if I have explained this very well - but I do have a niggling voice in my head that suggests that if I was really OK inside, I wouldn't be sent into an emotional headspin by the current emotionalmindfuckery (my new favourite word thank you God). haha you are welcome for the word, it's one of my faves these days also 😂 and yes i would like to share more about the three poisons and how recognizing them helps me heal. i have to do that when i can take the time to be thoughtful about it so i can articulate it well! on a quick note- we are in no danger of eradicating these problems in our lifetime, and once we do the questions become moot  however, as i gain insight into how these afflictions drive my relationship with myself and others, i am inspired to practice more mindful meditation, more insight meditation, more practice of the paramitas, etc. as i do this, my awareness grows and in fact this practice has been the foundation of my recovery from severe, debilitating PTSD, and is the reason i am able to i offer what i do to those i love, even those i don't know but care deeply about, those i don't know but i see suffering, i can only offer my best to them because of how i practice. so, this is not about becoming less human, so to speak. it's about become more deeply authentic, as a human, with human needs, and the ability to work harmoniously with my fellow beloved humans to meet those needs- in myself and others. we are interdependent, as humans, without question. this practice makes peace possible within that reality. i do not presume to teach but will very happily share my personal experience with this! ❤️ |
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Post by ocarina on Feb 26, 2018 17:58:17 GMT
Thanks Tgat - it's really interesting and helpful to hear your experiences especially as the path you are walking is somewhat similar to my own. Over the course of the day I have looked at the events in my relationship in a new way - through the lens of the three poisons and recognised how much suffering they caused - the avoidance by both of us driven by aversion, the greed of clinging to the relationship ... not sure how the delusion fits in but am sure it does - perhaps in the stories I wove to deceive myself into thinking I could deal with all of this whilst inside I was in a horrible painful tangle.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 18:49:20 GMT
Thanks Tgat - it's really interesting and helpful to hear your experiences especially as the path you are walking is somewhat similar to my own. Over the course of the day I have looked at the events in my relationship in a new way - through the lens of the three poisons and recognised how much suffering they caused - the avoidance by both of us driven by aversion, the greed of clinging to the relationship ... not sure how the delusion fits in but am sure it does - perhaps in the stories I wove to deceive myself into thinking I could deal with all of this whilst inside I was in a horrible painful tangle. the delusion manifests as a belief that you are lacking. if you study about delusion you will see. this, again, is not a dogma that should be used to try to become a robot, disconnected! its a teaching that reveals your deep connection to everything that unfolds. deep stuff but no good unless you apply it to your daily reality. i would like to share more about how reflecting on this affects my attention and choices in real time in a relationship. or a breakup! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 18:52:17 GMT
no matter what, pain drives me deeper into my spiritual practices, to work on those knots and become a better person with more to offer, and less to try to take from someone else.
this opens up to sharing instead of demanding, working together instead of making war.
it makes me more whole and makes my heart larger.
i'm a work in process.
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Post by ocarina on Feb 26, 2018 19:04:12 GMT
Thanks Tgat - it's really interesting and helpful to hear your experiences especially as the path you are walking is somewhat similar to my own. Over the course of the day I have looked at the events in my relationship in a new way - through the lens of the three poisons and recognised how much suffering they caused - the avoidance by both of us driven by aversion, the greed of clinging to the relationship ... not sure how the delusion fits in but am sure it does - perhaps in the stories I wove to deceive myself into thinking I could deal with all of this whilst inside I was in a horrible painful tangle. the delusion manifests as a belief that you are lacking. if you study about delusion you will see. this, again, is not a dogma that should be used to try to become a robot, disconnected! its a teaching that reveals your deep connection to everything that unfolds. deep stuff but no good unless you apply it to your daily reality. i would like to share more about how reflecting on this affects my attention and choices in real time in a relationship. or a breakup! Thank you Tgat - I would like to hear more. I know I have been guilty of using my meditation practice to disconnect and as a way to deal with deep unhappiness when at times the best thing would have been to walk away from the cause. |
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Post by yasmin on Feb 27, 2018 0:16:29 GMT
So - things are good for the most part - I am looking forward to Spring here with new hope, doing plenty of self care, exercise, just entered a big race for the Autumn, all kinds of other plans coming to fruition. The frustration is really coming from me - I have been seeing the ex on and off - we've been out walking and of course it's great, all still there in terms of connection etc Each time I vow to bring up the elephant in the room - the us subject. Each time I don't - we talk about everything under the sun and he's full of how lucky he feels to spend time with me, what a privilege etc etc but at the same time I have no idea if he wants more - if he's working on anything himself or whatever. Of course he must feel the same about me. So here we are two emotional cripples stuck in the never ending dance of not quite there yet - I don't want to be stuck - not sure if you've seen the film The remains of the day?" It's a bit like that (great film btw). I like things black and white - what is my responsibility here? What's his? What to do!!!!! Maybe there aren't answers to this _ I am moving on with my own wonderful personal thirty days of behaving as though I love myself - meditating, sitting with this stuff but it remains stuck in the back of my mind - every time he calls I think should I go? Shouldn't I? Nothing physical here of course - very clear boundaries on that and not going out in the evening etc again - too much like dating for me to go there. Not putting life on hold either. So there is some progress my side. I know the feeling well! It feels like some sort of emotional limbo, and I think very uncomfortable for both FA and AP to be in that state of ambiguity. I don't have the answers, but I can provide at least understanding that I know just how you feel. I am dating new people (lots of fun too) and keeping myself busy, but I know in my heart how much I miss that connection and how easy it would be to see my ex and enjoy that sense of joy and peace I get whenever I am around him. I really, really don't know the answers here but I can understand why you enjoy that time - I miss it a lot. I don't think very much can beat that feeling. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 14:36:47 GMT
So - things are good for the most part - I am looking forward to Spring here with new hope, doing plenty of self care, exercise, just entered a big race for the Autumn, all kinds of other plans coming to fruition. The frustration is really coming from me - I have been seeing the ex on and off - we've been out walking and of course it's great, all still there in terms of connection etc Each time I vow to bring up the elephant in the room - the us subject. Each time I don't - we talk about everything under the sun and he's full of how lucky he feels to spend time with me, what a privilege etc etc but at the same time I have no idea if he wants more - if he's working on anything himself or whatever. Of course he must feel the same about me. So here we are two emotional cripples stuck in the never ending dance of not quite there yet - I don't want to be stuck - not sure if you've seen the film The remains of the day?" It's a bit like that (great film btw). I like things black and white - what is my responsibility here? What's his? What to do!!!!! Maybe there aren't answers to this _ I am moving on with my own wonderful personal thirty days of behaving as though I love myself - meditating, sitting with this stuff but it remains stuck in the back of my mind - every time he calls I think should I go? Shouldn't I? Nothing physical here of course - very clear boundaries on that and not going out in the evening etc again - too much like dating for me to go there. Not putting life on hold either. So there is some progress my side. I could probably go on forever in the state of ambiguity as long as I was having a good time with the person. The answer to this is what feels good for you. Sometimes riding the roller coaster is worth it because you are riding it with him, sometimes it's just time to get off. |
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Post by ocarina on Feb 27, 2018 19:25:21 GMT
So - things are good for the most part - I am looking forward to Spring here with new hope, doing plenty of self care, exercise, just entered a big race for the Autumn, all kinds of other plans coming to fruition. The frustration is really coming from me - I have been seeing the ex on and off - we've been out walking and of course it's great, all still there in terms of connection etc Each time I vow to bring up the elephant in the room - the us subject. Each time I don't - we talk about everything under the sun and he's full of how lucky he feels to spend time with me, what a privilege etc etc but at the same time I have no idea if he wants more - if he's working on anything himself or whatever. Of course he must feel the same about me. So here we are two emotional cripples stuck in the never ending dance of not quite there yet - I don't want to be stuck - not sure if you've seen the film The remains of the day?" It's a bit like that (great film btw). I like things black and white - what is my responsibility here? What's his? What to do!!!!! Maybe there aren't answers to this _ I am moving on with my own wonderful personal thirty days of behaving as though I love myself - meditating, sitting with this stuff but it remains stuck in the back of my mind - every time he calls I think should I go? Shouldn't I? Nothing physical here of course - very clear boundaries on that and not going out in the evening etc again - too much like dating for me to go there. Not putting life on hold either. So there is some progress my side. I could probably go on forever in the state of ambiguity as long as I was having a good time with the person. The answer to this is what feels good for you. Sometimes riding the roller coaster is worth it because you are riding it with him, sometimes it's just time to get off. I think that if I could be accepting of the idea that this is how it is - rather than clinging to the hope of something, maybe I would be more peaceful in seeing him and actually enjoy the friendship. The clinging is triggered I am sure by his own ambivalence - the come here go away kind of message which seems to be underlying most of our interactions. I am a peaceful kind of person and don't want any roller coastering - rather a simple and gentle way of living - perhaps this is possible even with him around doing his crazy thing if I just accept this as it is and get on with loving me. |
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