katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147 
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Post by katy on Aug 10, 2016 15:28:46 GMT
So many people on this forum seem to have very similar stories. I read Raco's recent responses and suddenly the light bulb went on. If you go to 50,000 feet and look at the general elements of the stories documented on this forum, two general patterns seem to emerge:
People who are in unsatisfactory, dispiriting long-term relationships where their avoidant partner has been rejecting and unloving for a long period of time. Usually the decision that the forum writer needs to make seems to be, do I stay and try to attempt to change the avoidant or accept that I'm never going to feel really loved and accepted, or do I leave the relationship with the avoidant and begin to develop a new life and, hopefully, find a more loving partner? This type of relationship appears to be a constant drone of feeling sad and rejected and having to make a very difficult life decision.
The second, general type of avoidant relationship which so many people here have described is where a person begins a new, very happy relationship with an avoidant and, by the end, the person dealing with the avoidant is heart-broken and emotionally devastated. In this type of relationship, at the beginning, the avoidant turns on the charm and appears to be a very kind, loving person. As Raco said, the early charm phase is often full of promises for a great future. Some people have reported that they had a few early clues that the avoidant might be a solo operator, but these red flags were easy to overlook as somebody just having a bad day because there was so much positive coming from the avoidant.
Then, at about six months, the avoidant starts to feel smothered or threatened by too much involvement and the push / pull withdrawal starts. Often the excuse for the withdrawal is that the avoidant's work has become very demanding and that the avoidant is now very busy. This sudden change in the relationship, from seeming consistency to withdrawing push / pull, makes the avoidant's partner begin to feel very anxious and uncertain. The avoidant becomes even more hostile as their partner's anxiety escalates. Finally, as the situation gets more tense with the avoidant feeling more threatened and their partner feeling more anxious, the avoidant rejects their partner with anger, criticism, blaming, and even, as we've heard, threats of a restraining order.
What I suddenly saw was that somebody who has been through the second avoidant pattern usually feels heart-broken and emotionally devastated because they are made to feel that their personality and actions forced the avoidant to become angry and rejecting. But, if you look at the 50,000 foot view, so many of the avoidants whom people have dealt with seem to display a very similar ritualized dance of charm, push/pull withdrawing behaviors, and then, finally, very hostile rejection.
When you look at the big-picture, in the generic avoidant dance, the heart-breaking, hostile rejection by the avoidant isn't personal – it's just how they carry out relationships. You are probably not the first person whom the avoidant charmed and then cruelly rejected and you will probably not be the last person whom the avoidant charms and then cruelly rejects.
If the relationship with an avoidant is a ritualized dance, that means that there is no wonderful person and good relationship to go back to – the charm and the subsequent hostility are all parts of the avoidant's extended relationship dance.
I've often wondered how we can keep ourselves from being heart-broken by another avoidant. I think that being educated about the possibility that anybody can be an avoidant is extremely important. The new person's relationship history might provide a few clues. Also, there may be a few red flags, even during the charm phase, that may be more revealing than a person just having a bad day. My suspicion it that probably anybody who has been through this heart-breaking avoidant dance one time will be much more observant and much less trusting in future relationships.
The 50,000 foot summary seems to be that many of us were probably too quickly trusting and believed the avoidant's early promises. But, but it's important to understand that the push / pull withdrawal and hostile rejection were not personally directed at us – we were just the current person in the avoidant's life who was their current dance partner in their well-defined, confusing relationship dance.
In the end, the avoidant was just a damaged personality type and we ended up being pulled into their initially believable relationship dance which declines into push / pull withdrawal and, finally, hostile rejection. Next time, hopefully we can spot the avoidant dance very early and understand that believing the initial charm and promises will inevitably lead to the push / pull withdrawal and the hostile rejection which are all parts of the same dance.
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raco
Junior Member
Posts: 81 
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Post by raco on Aug 11, 2016 0:25:38 GMT
I often have a light bulb going on too when I read or hear about avoidants :-). Their behavior is so counterintuitive that it can be hard to understand them fully. Some people avoid whom they don't like, while avoidants avoid people they like and feel attracted to, trying to convince themselves that they don't like those people...
What you said is yet another thing avoidants have in common with narcissists. They seem to change at some point in the relationship, and their partners tend to try to get back the person they used to know, who seemed very nice at first. But there is only one consistent person, with no real change.
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Post by avoided on Jul 17, 2017 22:08:09 GMT
I started reading some older posts on the forum and this is such a good one.
It really is hard to not take the cruelty personally. Even knowing that it's some kind of personality defect on their part, the cruel way they withdraw and leave really makes you wonder what about you could enable someone who seemed to genuinely like or love you so much could throw you away and never look back when you haven't done anything wrong and there haven't been any irreconcilable differences.
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Post by learningalongtheway on Jul 19, 2017 1:15:28 GMT
I started reading some older posts on the forum and this is such a good one. It really is hard to not take the cruelty personally. Even knowing that it's some kind of personality defect on their part, the cruel way they withdraw and leave really makes you wonder what about you could enable someone who seemed to genuinely like or love you so much could throw you away and never look back when you haven't done anything wrong and there haven't been any irreconcilable differences. This forum entertains me because so many AP individuals shame dismisives for refusing to learn about avoidant attachment, yet come to these forms to have their feelings validated,complain about failed relationships, while never looking in the mirror.... |
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Post by joanneg on Jul 19, 2017 1:52:12 GMT
learningalongtheway - I feel like there was some negativity in that post
the fact that there are more AP's on this forum shows how AP's want to learn become self aware and learn about attachment theory
If you read a lot of the posts a lot of AP's tend to look "into" themselves to find out why they allowed things to get so bad with a DA .. of course validation comes into it...
As an mild AP myself having gone through a relationship with a DA it is a very soul destroying experience which is hard to understand with a lot of self blame etc.
I still feel like it is my fault that my DA acted that way however I am trying to think it cant be a coincidence considering so many people share the same similar stories
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Post by avoided on Jul 19, 2017 17:09:56 GMT
I started reading some older posts on the forum and this is such a good one. It really is hard to not take the cruelty personally. Even knowing that it's some kind of personality defect on their part, the cruel way they withdraw and leave really makes you wonder what about you could enable someone who seemed to genuinely like or love you so much could throw you away and never look back when you haven't done anything wrong and there haven't been any irreconcilable differences. This forum entertains me because so many AP individuals shame dismisives for refusing to learn about avoidant attachment, yet come to these forms to have their feelings validated,complain about failed relationships, while never looking in the mirror.... Odd post. I don't see much denial on this forum. I think people are actually very self aware and honest with themselves. |
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Post by learningalongtheway on Jul 19, 2017 18:21:04 GMT
learningalongtheway - I feel like there was some negativity in that post the fact that there are more AP's on this forum shows how AP's want to learn become self aware and learn about attachment theory If you read a lot of the posts a lot of AP's tend to look "into" themselves to find out why they allowed things to get so bad with a DA .. of course validation comes into it... As an mild AP myself having gone through a relationship with a DA it is a very soul destroying experience which is hard to understand with a lot of self blame etc. I still feel like it is my fault that my DA acted that way however I am trying to think it cant be a coincidence considering so many people share the same similar stories Yes, there obviously was some negativity.... Anyways, I disagree that the number of APs on this forum indicates they are somehow enlightened. If so why are there 10 fold more posts in the DA section vs the AP section? I think avoidant just don't post here b/c it's a more hostile environment. |
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Post by learningalongtheway on Jul 19, 2017 18:24:40 GMT
This forum entertains me because so many AP individuals shame dismisives for refusing to learn about avoidant attachment, yet come to these forms to have their feelings validated,complain about failed relationships, while never looking in the mirror.... Odd post. I don't see much denial on this forum. I think people are actually very self aware and honest with themselves. I think it's odd to blame failed relationships on individuals with "personality defects" while absoving oneself of any responsibility. e.x. "throw you away and never look back when you haven't done anything wrong and there haven't been any irreconcilable differences." But hey we can agree to disagree. |
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Post by gaynxious on Jul 19, 2017 19:25:10 GMT
I am actually going to agree with learningalongtheway. Simply being here does not mean you are seeking to grow. I do think AP's are more likely than DA's to realize they have attachment issues but I think that is because we are more prone to believe something is wrong with us, not necessarily greater self awareness. The hostility toward DA's probably does cause fewer to post here but I think it's more that they don't need to. DA's don't need their experience validated by others to move forward.
I think some posters here do geniuninly wish to improve and do make progress doing so. There is also some research showing AP's 'grow' in response to breakups more than DA's but I will point out the research I have seen did not test attachment style as a measure of growth. So maybe they do get better at being introspective, the root cause of their relationship problems may not actually be addressed.
That said it is an AP's right to come here and say whatever they feel like about DA's if it helps them move forward. Just as it's a DA's right to cut their ex's out of their life and do whatever they feel they need to to move on.
And further to the AP's out there, the best revenge or validation or whatever you need is living well. If you want to believe you are better than DA's, learn your needs, work on yourself, find a secure partner, be a better partner, and be happy. If jeb's chart is right we don't end up ultimately single as much as DA's do so interpret that however you need to be motivated to be happy.
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Post by joanneg on Jul 20, 2017 2:00:04 GMT
As an AP I completely take responsibility for my part in the break down of the relationship... however surely if a relationship is ending OR at the beginning of issues as a mature adult you should just have a conversation? Try and work through these issues? I understand DA's struggle to have these types of conversations and problem solve
Me and my DA broke up over... nothing...
We ended up fighting about fighting... as no little issue we ever had could ever be resolved... never...
It is a DA's right to completely cut off things ... just as it is my right to want a conversation...
Just because it is your right to do something doesn't mean it makes it right...there is a right and wrong way to deal with things.. however I guess that comes down to each individuals perspective
A DA can cut a relationship but I just dont understand it.. Im not a DA so I probably never will...
I pride myself on resolving things with family/friends/colleagues.. communicating calmly and clearly and hopefully moving forward ... this is not me DA "slandering" but from research this is just a facts that DA's struggle with these things.. problem solving/ getting closer/ working through things...personally I actually prefer reading posts that come from DA's so I can understand the way of thinking more..
part of me wonders if there really is such a thing as avoidants (although the DA traits are so exact) or is people who just "arent that interested" or it is my anxieties that just push people so far they never want to speak with me ever again (yes it is a sad thought but I think it maybe is completely my doing) I make friend easy and am close to my family... intimate relationships not so much.. although maybe its just compatibility... my last DA has just really messed up my head .. I had 2 boyfriends before and they were both long term secure and very normal relationships.
I am definitely jealous of a DA's ability to move on... I almost wish I was a DA as opposed to an AP
Im trying to understand it all... I am trying to be self aware.. I definitely dont judge DAs.. I just dont understand it is all
Thanks gannxious for your last note on living well.. that is so true.. I want to live well and positively... I just find the hurt and sadness is hard to move past... time will help
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Post by avoided on Jul 20, 2017 18:25:07 GMT
Odd post. I don't see much denial on this forum. I think people are actually very self aware and honest with themselves. I think it's odd to blame failed relationships on individuals with "personality defects" while absoving oneself of any responsibility. e.x. "throw you away and never look back when you haven't done anything wrong and there haven't been any irreconcilable differences." But hey we can agree to disagree. I don't appreciate your assumption that I had any responsibility for the breakup. You don't know anything about my relationship. |
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Post by cricket on Jul 20, 2017 18:39:41 GMT
Everyone has a part to play in the totality of the relationship. I dont think they are saying its your fault for the particular reason u broke up. In the grand scheme of things it is no ones fault. We are all willing participants. Pain usually clouds that tho so I dont blame u for how u are feeling just like i dont blame DA's for how they react.
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Post by learningalongtheway on Jul 21, 2017 22:08:50 GMT
I am actually going to agree with learningalongtheway. Simply being here does not mean you are seeking to grow. I do think AP's are more likely than DA's to realize they have attachment issues but I think that is because we are more prone to believe something is wrong with us, not necessarily greater self awareness. The hostility toward DA's probably does cause fewer to post here but I think it's more that they don't need to. DA's don't need their experience validated by others to move forward. I think some posters here do geniuninly wish to improve and do make progress doing so. There is also some research showing AP's 'grow' in response to breakups more than DA's but I will point out the research I have seen did not test attachment style as a measure of growth. So maybe they do get better at being introspective, the root cause of their relationship problems may not actually be addressed. That said it is an AP's right to come here and say whatever they feel like about DA's if it helps them move forward. Just as it's a DA's right to cut their ex's out of their life and do whatever they feel they need to to move on. And further to the AP's out there, the best revenge or validation or whatever you need is living well. If you want to believe you are better than DA's, learn your needs, work on yourself, find a secure partner, be a better partner, and be happy. If jeb's chart is right we don't end up ultimately single as much as DA's do so interpret that however you need to be motivated to be happy. I tihnk the reasons APs are more aware is cultural. Assuming most people here are from the US, independence and self-sufficiency is highly prized, especially in men. Since our culture bends toward accomodation of DA types, APs are more likely to feel there is something wrong and see knowledge/treatment. Most of the aware DAs I know are women. I think this is because culturally women are expected to behave as APs so DA behavior is more obvious in women and shamed, forcing more of us to look in the mirror compared to relative to male DAs. |
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guava
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by guava on Jul 22, 2017 0:52:47 GMT
While researching more and more about DA types, I realized that I have DA tendencies in certain non-romantic relationships. However, I'm more secure/anxious in romantic relationships. Anyway, I started to think that maybe the way I experience avoidance with certain platonic relationships has similarities to those we have dated who are DA.
When I was in medical school, I had an attending physican (this is a doctor who is observing and grading you with your patient care) who I had actually known and admired for many years before I even began college. She is a very well-respected and talented doctor with a strong personality, and she is the reason why I decided to become a doctor. However, she has a way about her that can be intimidating. I can only handle being around her for small amounts of time even to this day. She has actively reached out to get to know me better and even asked if I could help watch her home while she was on vacation for a month. To most people, this would be a dream to have their idol reach out to them in order to get to know them better. For me, I actually avoid the hell out of her. I have molded my medical practice after her and her ideas, but I can't bring myself to spend much time around her as she makes me anxious. Being a new graduate thirty years her junior, I am extremely insecure about my medical knowledge compared to hers. I think this may mimic the insecurity DAs feel in general that they try to mask. Also, we have a strong connection that I can't quite put into words. So maybe DAs do feel that connection that we feel with us too, but ultimately they just can't handle the intimacy just like how I can't handle the "intimacy" with my former idol physician. I am usually fine with showing my emotions in front of people, but with her I always act very stoic no matter what and do not want to show weakness.
Growing up, I knew something was different about me because school was harder for me than most. I developed a lot of insecurities due to that. Even though I did very well in college and graduated from a highly ranked medical school, I still have so much insecurity that probably stems from my childhood. I always felt that something was "wrong with me" which sounds a lot like what people are saying their DA partner said about themselves. It's just something that becomes ingrained.
I was also very avoidant while growing up with my father. He did not think I cared much for him at times, and he even called me the "ice-queen" because I wouldn't let myself cry in front of him. He had no idea that I cared for him so much! But I would have rather died than let him know that oddly enough. However, I had a very anxious attachment to my mother, so I was extremely emotional around her. I think I was more avoidant around my dad because I did not feel a certain level of emotional safety with him. This isn't to say DAs don't feel safe with us because of something we did, but rather it's related to not feeling emotionally safe with a former caregiver. So I've been on both sides of the spectrum. The funny thing is, the people I have been avoidant with meant a hell of a lot to me. I just didn't feel a certain level of emotional safety with them due to some subconscious fear I have of rejection.
I noticed there was a post on this forum awhile ago where one person reached out to a few of her DA friends and they did confirm that they feel emotions and some feel bad for how they may have hurt their previous partner. I think I am experiencing a glimpse into the DA world, and it does make me feel bad because I can't imagine feeling the way I do about my idol plus everybody else I'm close with.
Maybe my thinking is flawed and this is not comparable, but something in me says there are similarities. It's funny because there is nothing about my idol that I can find fault with, it's just that she's a very strong personality and it's overwhelming to me. I feel overwhelmed because she expects a lot from me, and I get the feeling that she thinks I know more than what I really do. So my fear stems from inadequacy and that seems to be something prevalent with DAs from what I've read.
The point of the story is that just because a DA is acting a certain way doesn't necessarily equate to you not meaning anything to them. I have avoided people in my life that I care A LOT about. But they activate a specific insecurity in me that hits a specific nerve, so I disappear. Hoping this is helpful to others because I also struggled in thinking that my ex DA didn't care for me, when in fact he probably did/does. Not all DAs are the same, but I think it is safe to say that it is very possible that many of them care more than we think.
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Post by mrscuba on Jul 23, 2017 19:02:13 GMT
Odd post. I don't see much denial on this forum. I think people are actually very self aware and honest with themselves. I think it's odd to blame failed relationships on individuals with "personality defects" while absoving oneself of any responsibility. e.x. "throw you away and never look back when you haven't done anything wrong and there haven't been any irreconcilable differences." But hey we can agree to disagree. I'm not sure if something struck a nerve with you here, but this place is where people on all sides of the attachment spectrum come to learn, vent and understand about what they have experienced. In other words, it shouldn't be surprising to see emotional responses that don't come off as objective as they could be... you also shouldn't be surprised that the majority of society would likely be hurt or offended by the actions and responses of avoidants. They aren't bad people but they unintentionally hurt others more than they can realize. By their very nature they don't get impacted as much as others do because they have mastered inter-personal coping mechanisms. I can see why you'd see it that way but... I encourage you to try and not take some Of these things here personally like I fear you may have. |
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