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Post by yasmin on May 13, 2018 13:56:39 GMT
Even when you become aware of the patterns or the motivation behind such confusing behaviour, it doesn't soothe you and it doesn't get better if they don't seek professional help and actively apply it to turn things around. I can dissect everything all day, everyday, but there will always be more and more unanswered questions, you really can't win. And it seems that everyone on these boards trying to keep in touch or reconcile with past partners are struggling because the partner isn't working on themselves too. I wish everyday I could have just bolted the moment I saw the first sign of 180 degree behaviour from my FA ex. This x 1000. The very first moment you start to feel confused, baffled, anxious - it is NOT A GOOD RELATIONSHIP and you should run for the hills. It never gets better. Never. Good relationships don't make you feel that way, not ever. |
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Post by szorn2296 on May 13, 2018 13:59:47 GMT
szorn2296 - it's all in the name. They don't make decisions because they avoid. Instead, they push someone else to make the decision for them, or if it's really at a standstill, they'll just choose the option that requires the least amount of emotional effort. There are too many bizarre behaviours to list. They all had a pretty common and predictable pattern though. It always had to do with something positive that would turn negative because he wouldn't communicate what was going on in his head, and by the time I'd play catch up to figure it all out, he'd already convinced himself I would reject him, so sabotage a good outcome and shut me out of turning it around. Like: - Busting up my phone 24/7 all week planning a date, then not show up at the last minute but also not even inform me of cancelling it too. By the time I contacted to check when he was coming, he would have always made another plan and say 'you didn't call so I thought you didn't want to see me.' And he didn't think to communicate to that to me FIRST before deciding not to rock up at all and leave me hanging? - Saying he was a 'good' boy and ready to settle down and look for his wife... but actually had a very spotty 'bad' boy past, share waaaaaaaay too much information about his past partners and continue to do so, even when I said I didn't want to know any more, it's not relevant. Then said that I was judging him and projected the reasons his exes left him onto me. If you see a future with me, and have quit that life, then why introduce insecurity into our budding relationship with girls long gone? I did not ask him for any of this information, then he used it against me to sabotage our relationship with his own shame and insecurity instead of seeing I was still standing there accepting his baggage. Of course I chalked this all up to typical early dating cold feet/flakey male behaviour, but it doesn't matter. It was the first signs of hardcore FA behaviour. I'm gonna save myself the headaches next time and just turn around and keep walking. The lack of communication is truly so confusing, especially regarding plans. It's like they think they have communicated, but you are left wondering how they could possibly think that? Multiple times he would tell me he was planning to come on a certain day, and it would be the night before with no mention of it. I would ask, and he would tell me he wasn't coming and I would then express my dissapointment with the lack of communication to let me know. He would then say "I told you earlier I was still working on my plane" I had to explain to him - Ok, but that does not communicate to me what that means for our plans? Your plane is a hobby so I assume you can take a break to spend time with me if it is important to you and we had arranged them ahead of time. And if you cannot take a break to visit me, then communicate that to me before the night before I am expecting you to be here? He does this with his friends too. They will make plans, and then the day of the plans reach out and no response. He will respond much later "sorry got tied up with ____" How does an adult operate this way? It is infuriating. What was even more irritating was that when I would give him ample time and opportunity to communicate about plans, he wouldn't, so then I would have to ask about them and tell them I was frustrated that he had not communicated or thought about our plans and he would respond "But I'm communicating about it right now" yes because I asked?  ??!!! After giving ample opportunity and time for them to come to me. He went through a period of time where he did communicate and initiate plans well, but it did not last long, as it apparently "emotionally maxed him out". Surely I am not crazy or expecting too much here.... it's just frustrating when you see they are capable, but it seems impossible for them to keep up or do on the regular. |
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Post by yasmin on May 13, 2018 14:14:21 GMT
Can you imagine wanting nothing more than closeness, but when you get it, PARTS of it scare the hell out of you and all you want to do is get away. In my case, I was able to shut it off from being visible on the outside for 9 years, but every progression ripped me apart. When we found out our daughter was coming, my reaction was less than positive, even though I’d wanted that my whole life. To a normal, secure person, closeness means security, for me, closeness is frightening. This is exactly how I feel. It's really a crappy way to live. We all react to that basic premise of "closeness is frightening" in different ways. It sounds like the OPs guy is a bit similar to my ex FA and to others where he is okay until too much pressure is placed and then he reacts over the top. ocarina and I are almost identical in our patterns. We avoid beginning relationships to begin with. We only date people who pursue us enough and for long enough. We dump people for silly reasons to escape ever having to be vulnerable or be disappointed, which we see as inevitable. We create a false self / perfect version of ourselves to avoid vulnerability and present something we think people want to see. We reject available, loving men but end up feeling deeply connected to avoidants who can't fully love us back, which in itself is our avoidance playing out. They're not "long distance" in a physical sense, but they're equally unavailable. When I am actually dating someone, I am good at closeness providing they do NOTHING to trigger me. If they trigger me, I just lose the ability to be normal. As a good example here, I have a guy who's been trying to date me for a few weeks now and I'd agreed finally. I just told him to forget the whole thing because he didn't call me back the other night when he said he would. I am pretty sure he really likes me and is probably sitting there wondering how the heck he just got pre-emptively dumped for not calling me back one time, and he's wishing I'd reply to his messages, but I won't. I'll never talk to him again. In my FA head, that act of not calling back tells me he is going to hurt me. It's SO real to me, I can't stop the way it makes me feel. FAs are looking for reasons to believe they have found love, then they're looking for proof that the person is going to harm /hurt them and confirmation that running away is the best thing. Psychologically this is so real, even when you know it's what is happening you actually still can't stop it. We just don't believe anything is going to turn out well, even though we wish it would. We can't let go of the hope or the fear so we live all the time with both! |
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Post by szorn2296 on May 13, 2018 14:33:23 GMT
Can you imagine wanting nothing more than closeness, but when you get it, PARTS of it scare the hell out of you and all you want to do is get away. In my case, I was able to shut it off from being visible on the outside for 9 years, but every progression ripped me apart. When we found out our daughter was coming, my reaction was less than positive, even though I’d wanted that my whole life. To a normal, secure person, closeness means security, for me, closeness is frightening. This is exactly how I feel. It's really a crappy way to live. We all react to that basic premise of "closeness is frightening" in different ways. It sounds like the OPs guy is a bit similar to my ex FA and to others where he is okay until too much pressure is placed and then he reacts over the top. ocarina and I are almost identical in our patterns. We avoid beginning relationships to begin with. We only date people who pursue us enough and for long enough. We dump people for silly reasons to escape ever having to be vulnerable or be disappointed, which we see as inevitable. We create a false self / perfect version of ourselves to avoid vulnerability and present something we think people want to see. We reject available, loving men but end up feeling deeply connected to avoidants who can't fully love us back, which in itself is our avoidance playing out. They're not "long distance" in a physical sense, but they're equally unavailable. When I am actually dating someone, I am good at closeness providing they do NOTHING to trigger me. If they trigger me, I just lose the ability to be normal. As a good example here, I have a guy who's been trying to date me for a few weeks now and I'd agreed finally. I just told him to forget the whole thing because he didn't call me back the other night when he said he would. I am pretty sure he really likes me and is probably sitting there wondering how the heck he just got pre-emptively dumped for not calling me back one time, and he's wishing I'd reply to his messages, but I won't. I'll never talk to him again. In my FA head, that act of not calling back tells me he is going to hurt me. It's SO real to me, I can't stop the way it makes me feel. FAs are looking for reasons to believe they have found love, then they're looking for proof that the person is going to harm /hurt them and confirmation that running away is the best thing. Psychologically this is so real, even when you know it's what is happening you actually still can't stop it. We just don't believe anything is going to turn out well, even though we wish it would. We can't let go of the hope or the fear so we live all the time with both! This makes a lot of sense. I remember at first when we started dating, he always encouraged me "don't feel like you can't call or text me first too sometimes" I could tell he really wanted my re-assurance and wanted me to initiate more. There were other instances where I was having a girls weekend and texted him to touch base, everything seemed fine, I called when I got home and he was upset with me for not calling him while I was gone. He then took it further and said it wasn't about just that weekend, that I never called in general. This was so strange - we do talk on the phone often, but it was two days where I was staying in a house with 5 girls that I did not call, but always kept in contact via text to check in and keep him updated/send him pics, etc. I called as soon as I got away from everyone. It felt like he was looking for any reason to believe that I did not care about him. Which is strange because APs do this too? |
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Post by mrob on May 13, 2018 15:37:27 GMT
But that’s the definition of Fearful Avoidant. All the crazy stuff from the AP side, with the equally fun stuff of the avoidant, coming from a base of low self esteem. Quite a cocktail.
Want to watch him run? Ask him to be there for you. To do things that you think are reasonable.
Mind you, nobody will assert themselves as a priority over my hobbies again. I’ve been guilty of being totally conflicted between friends and partners. Towards the end of my marriage, I did nothing outside of work if she didn’t approve, and went through jobs because I couldn’t be there at the right times for her. My fault though. I wish I’d had the testicular fortitude to stand up for myself, but from what I now know about attachment theory, it all fits in.
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Post by yasmin on May 13, 2018 15:53:11 GMT
Yes we're a cocktail of both:) All you can do is ask what they need and try and have an honest conversation.
I'd be totally capable of communicating my bizarre cocktail of needs to any partner who asked me.
It varies from person to person.
I personally don't mind someone wanting me to be there for them. Or to have an emotional conversation.
I think anxious and avoidant behaviours are different depending on the person. My avoidance tends to play out in literally running away from the relationship entirely and then blocking it from my thoughts.
It's be a cold day in hell before I reached out to an ex, but my ex FA will always reach out to me. He's classic push/ pull
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Post by ocarina on May 13, 2018 19:35:16 GMT
But that’s the definition of Fearful Avoidant. All the crazy stuff from the AP side, with the equally fun stuff of the avoidant, coming from a base of low self esteem. Quite a cocktail. Want to watch him run? Ask him to be there for you. To do things that you think are reasonable. Mind you, nobody will assert themselves as a priority over my hobbies again. I’ve been guilty of being totally conflicted between friends and partners. Towards the end of my marriage, I did nothing outside of work if she didn’t approve, and went through jobs because I couldn’t be there at the right times for her. My fault though. I wish I’d had the testicular fortitude to stand up for myself, but from what I now know about attachment theory, it all fits in. Mrob it's amazing that you are so self aware. The threat of losing yourself - even if it's a difficult and destructive part of yourself vs the desire to be in a relationship must be a terrible conundrum. My ex partner was like this - I felt I could ask him for absolutely anything - to buy me a house on the moon - and he'd say yes - no boundaries at all and I wonder if it was this lack of boundaries that made him so fearful of being engulfed. Closeness isn't so frightening if you do have a firm sense of self and a strong idea of what is and isn't acceptable. |
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Post by nottheonion on May 13, 2018 19:52:43 GMT
How do you guys even stay with an FA for so long? 3 months of being together and another month of going back, I’ve had enough. It’s literally the most draining relationship I’ve ever been in.
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Post by ocarina on May 13, 2018 20:00:26 GMT
How do you guys even stay with an FA for so long? 3 months of being together and another month of going back, I’ve had enough. It’s literally the most draining relationship I’ve ever been in. In my case because I am FA myself - so it felt kind of comfortable for both of us - in a dysfunctional way! |
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Post by nottheonion on May 13, 2018 20:10:52 GMT
How do you guys even stay with an FA for so long? 3 months of being together and another month of going back, I’ve had enough. It’s literally the most draining relationship I’ve ever been in. In my case because I am FA myself - so it felt kind of comfortable for both of us - in a dysfunctional way! I’m FA/DA (depending on situation) -> secure and it felt awful. His AP stage brought out my DA and his later avoidant stage got my anxiety out and made me go FA. Eventually I just left. Pulled him a bit back in then I left again. Even with the distance / no commitment, he could get triggered by me and upset me all over again. It’s all too much. |
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Post by leavethelighton on May 14, 2018 0:15:02 GMT
This x 1000. The very first moment you start to feel confused, baffled, anxious - it is NOT A GOOD RELATIONSHIP and you should run for the hills. It never gets better. Never. Good relationships don't make you feel that way, not ever. Umm.... I'm not sure I agree with this. I think there may be a time any two people might feel baffled or anxious. The sign of a healthy relationship isn't that you never, ever feel those things, but that when you do, you can both communicate openly about it and in a way that is direct/honest and mutually respectful. |
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Post by guest on May 14, 2018 3:24:12 GMT
Just a few insights randomly on this:
1. I don't think insecurity has anything to do with how good looking or successful and people who seem on the surface to have the full package can have crippling self doubt.
2. Starting a long distance relationship is really typical for FAs, I do this A LOT and it's a way of having a relationship that isn't really a relationship. When things start getting "real" they can run away.
3. FAs can genuinely assume that someone is about to hurt them, and they can lash out / start fights and behave in crazy ways to push people away to pre-empt what they think is inevitable.
4. Divorce is pretty horrible, and in some circumstances it can take people years to "get over it" and in the meantime what they want is a fun / no obligation way to feel better rather than a loving 50/50 relationship.With all that in mind as observations, I'd really advise you to sit with the silence and try and see it as a positive, because the more time and distance you get, the clearer your own head will get with this. You're triggered now - you don't sound AP - you sound like a "normal" person who has been triggered to feel insecure and confused because your legitimate requests for reassurance and response have been met by confusing responses. Please just keep in mind that asking for simple reassurance or consistency or behavior or proportional responses DOES NOT make you "needy", it makes you a human being engaged in a relationship with another human being. If he can't offer that, HE is not capable (or willing) to provide the normal give and take of a relationship, whether that be because he is FA, DA or just not over his divorce yet. I feel sure he will be in touch again, the best thing to do is ignore him and hold your boundaries, don't let his behavior make you reduce your standards or expectations because whatever his attachment style, he will view this as a carte blanche to continue with more of it. Great observations Great observations yasmin, the highlighted lines sum up the last "relationship" I had.
You give some good reassurance and advice. I'm not on here as much as I was when I was coming out of the head-fuck, but I always enjoy reading your posts, thoughtful, and intelligent. Thanks |
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??!!! After giving ample opportunity and time for them to come to me. He went through a period of time where he did communicate and initiate plans well, but it did not last long, as it apparently "emotionally maxed him out". Surely I am not crazy or expecting too much here.... it's just frustrating when you see they are capable, but it seems impossible for them to keep up or do on the regular. 
