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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 12:46:05 GMT
i have an idea, about how you might challenge these thoughts. it seems to me that this might be tied to intermittent reinforcement that you received from your caregivers? so the message was... i care about you (when i'm acting like it) but not really (when i am not responding). your child inside, as children do, internalized the "i don't really care" or "i can't be depended upon" message and interpreted it as "i'm not worthy of your care" - is that correct? i can only try to see it from the outside and if this doesn't resonate with the actual feeling of what your child experience was like, i apologize. so, this conditioning is impacting other close relationship--- because you are programmed to interpret the behavior of people in caring positions around you, as not reliable, not genuine perhaps... and at the bottom of it all, it's because of you. so it's the framing and interpretation mechanism that's broken, and arguing points about lovability don't get to the heart of the problem it seems. But what if you analyze it and put things in their proper place to fix your framing and interpretation, interaction by interaction, when you are triggered? being able to receive love and care during each caring interaction with another , instead of deflecting it, builds your capacity for self love, as alpenglow said. I'm just working through this, bear with me. so, what if you addressed the faulty framing immediately when you notice this feeling of deflecting love, and the ensuing thoughts of unworthiness. Like this. My parents were obliged to care for and take care of me, i was their child. I was dependent, and it is natural for parent to take care of a child. (speaking only to the type of relationship, parent-child) My friend is not obliged in any way at all to me, rather, has chosen me as a friend. My friend demonstrates care for me because she is attracted to me as a person, voluntarily! I'm not a burden of any kind, she doesn't HAVE to. she wants to! (not saying you were a burden to your parents, again, empahasizing the voluntary and joyful nature of the friendship) When my friend tells me she misses me, it's not internmittent reinforcement like i used to get from my parents. It's not a matter of "she cares for me sometimes, but not really.". That's old messaging! The new message i claim is: i am an adult in mutually chosen relationships, and my friends love and appreciate me, as i am, and the proof is, they are my friends!!! They don't have to be, this is not parent /child relating, this is chosen relating. And i can trust it! I imagine you could reframe any interaction that leaves you pushing away love, care, appreciation. With a boss, someone who appreciates you and lets you know, etc. You may be seeing positive interactions as intermittent reinforcement, it's just a thought as i drink my morning coffee and i apologize if it's off base. |
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Post by alpenglow on Aug 11, 2018 15:04:06 GMT
I like your approach, juniper! I think your analysis is spot on. It is exactly as you described it. The love/attention/care we anxious received as children was inconsistent. We received some, but never knew when the next time would be, because of all the times we didn't receive it when we needed it. Intermittent reinforcement, totally. We are indeed programmed to interpret the behaviour of people in caring positions as not reliable, because these people might suddenly stop giving us care. Something we ultimately interpret as being our fault. Again, because that was the only logical conclusion we could come to as children. In my case, I'm lucky enough to have had extremely good friends early on in my life, and who are still my closest friends 20-30 years later. I am secure in those relationships, do not worry about them stopping to give me love. They've been super reliable the whole time (they are all secure). I like your way of framing loving friendships as something voluntary! You're right, friends are not obliged to do anything for us, unlike parents. If they want to, this logically means that they like us the way we are. And when they on top of that deal with us on a consistent basis, there is nothing to worry about. But yet, there is still something inside, when we happen to deflect love and compliments, because it clashes with our internal deep belief that we are not lovable. It is, for me, not usually activated with friends, but only in romantic relationships. This is where the difference lies. Romantic relationships remind us of parental attachment. For some reason, unlike relationships with friends, we anxious somehow feel that lovers owe us something. I'm not sure if this is true for all anxious. We wish to recreate the bond we had with our parents, and long for the safety, care and love we didn't receive. Although we often end up looking for it in the worst possible places (usually with dismissives), I still think that we long for reliability. A lack of reliability generates a lot of anxiety. Perhaps the nature of romantic relationships stands out from platonic friendships. They are more transient. Breaking up with a lover, even among secure partners, seems to me to be a lot more common than "breaking up" with friends. This creates more uncertainty from the get go. And since we think that the love we receive from lovers is essentially different from the one we receive from friends, we fear that there is more to lose if we don't get it. Perhaps it would be easier if APs saw potential romantic partners primarily as friends. And then something more. But the something more shouldn't be mixed up with the kind of parental love we didn't get. This is lost, we will never get it again. Not from such partners at least. I think.... Add to that many painful experiences of rejection from romantic partners. Unlike platonic friends, the probability for rejection is higher. In that case, we're back to square. If someone does not choose us, we experience rejection, which we interpret as something inherently bad with ourselves. Some defect. Unworthy. Unlovable. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 15:24:10 GMT
it's interesting you just mentioned it alpenglow... my take on romantic relationships , as an avoidant , what makes me feel really able to connect deeply and safely, warmly, in a way i want to continue, is to see my partner as my good friend. It's the highest kind of love i know. i am out off by the trappings of "romantic love" but i can get on board with a deep (and sexy lol) FRIENDSHIP. |
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Post by alpenglow on Aug 11, 2018 15:43:04 GMT
A deep friendship is also something very important to me, even as an AP! I'd want a romantic partner to be first and foremost a friend, with the sex part as an addition. And...something else that it is a bit difficult to describe. Some form of interdependence? Someone who's really happy to see me, be with me, and often. Some sort of healthy dependency for each other. Not like with a good friend that I may only see twice a year  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 15:54:20 GMT
A deep friendship is also something very important to me, even as an AP! I'd want a romantic partner to be first and foremost a friend, with the sex part as an addition. And...something else that it is a bit difficult to describe. Some form of interdependence? Someone who's really happy to see me, be with me, and often. Some sort of healthy dependency for each other. Not like with a good friend that I may only see twice a year yes exactly. that's what i had with my last partner. we craved each other for what we shared, our sympatico vibe that was relaxed and nurturing. a special friend slot, that no one else could fill. even as we aren't romantically involved now, that special friend vibe continues so it's just in another form. but it's a real, intimate friendship and it adds to the quality of my life. |
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Post by notalone on Aug 11, 2018 16:06:46 GMT
I feel you there, notalone. I have it like you, and it has been so all my life. It comes down to silencing that inner critic that keeps telling us that we are worth nothing, that we are defective and unlovable. This voice in us (generally coming straight from our parents) takes way too much space in our daily inner dialogue. It is very convincing and keeps coming back for more, especially when you are in a weakened position. When it comes to receiving compliments and love from friends, I can say that I have an easier time than I used to for accepting them. It no longer clashes with my inner beliefs as much as it used to. When it comes to romantic relationships though, I feel unfortunately just as unlovable as always (attracting DAs doesn't help either....but now I manage to pull away from them quite quickly). Yesterday, I told a colleague at work, who's becoming a friend, that I've always struggled with depression, anxiety and very low self-esteem. This came into the discussion as he asked me about my dating life (I've been single for 4 years, after a 7 year long relationship with a secure person). Since he enquired about the reasons of our breakup, I told him that it was mostly due to those issues. What a surprise for him! He would have never guessed. To him, I am this super friendly, social, likeable person, who does lots of super interesting things in life. Perhaps I can hide it this well because I act like a secure person in friendships, something that I cannot do in romantic relationships (at least, not for long). Even in friendships though, it feels like my insecurity is so obvious! Especially my constant self-doubt. I still crave attention, love and compliments. As for tools and how to change....I am currently reading "Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving", by Pete Walker. It's not exactly about attachment theory, but goes one level deeper. It applies to all those who've had some sort of developmental trauma in childchood, through abandonment, neglect etc...I'd recommend it to anyone struggling with chronic depression and anxiety, shame and low self-esteem. It seems more appropriate for those with an anxious attachment, but I think his analyses and tools can also be applied for dismissive and fearful attachments. His tools focus on reducing the power of the inner critic through mindfulness, self-compassion and grieving work for the inner wounded child in us. Nothing exactly revolutionary, but the whole package is very comprehensive and integrative, he addresses so many layers at the same time. He also brings up chronology in it, what to do when. He is also a recovered cPSTD sufferer, working now as a psychotherapist. What Juniper wrote is true. We anxious feel that we need everyone else to love us, while what we really need is to love ourselves. I'm still convinced though (and this is something backed by all the therapists I've had) that receiving and accepting love from others, in all its forms, helps us towards this goal of managing to love ourselves. The emotional part of our brain needs to be swayed this way, to counteract our real emotional memories from rejection and abandonment in childhood. We can't do this alone. Thanks for this post. It sounds like we have a lot in common. I’m going to check out that book. |
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Post by alpenglow on Aug 11, 2018 16:10:18 GMT
This is great to hear! This is how it should be.
Probably harder for APs to keep a great friendship after having been romantically involved though. Because of that feeling of rejection and not being good enough. I managed it for a while with my ex wife, but she cut contact after she found someone else.
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Post by alpenglow on Aug 11, 2018 16:17:04 GMT
You're welcome, notalone! It does indeed sound like we have a lot in common. The complex PTSD concept sounds a bit scary, but makes even more sense that attachment theory alone, or the very general depression and anxiety disorders. Insecure attachment is a consequence of the trauma we have experienced as children. I even gave a copy of the book to my therapist, for him to read during the summer break, haha. He was very interested. Walker's concept of "emotional flashback", when we are activated by some trigger, is genius. The guy is very talented in linked it to the underlying shame that we carry, and at the bottom of it all, what he calls the "abandonment melange" (self-abandonment + shame). cPTSD is not an official DSM-V diagnosis yet, but it encompasses so many other sub-diagnosis, that we could do away with. |
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Post by notalone on Aug 11, 2018 16:32:02 GMT
I think part of my problem is that I’ve had a few friends “break-up” with me when I’ve gotten into a very bad place. I became too much for them. So yeah. It’s a fear, and contributes to my insecurity.
On another note, it’s been over 2 weeks now since I heard from the last guy I dated. I ended things with him 2 months ago, but we stayed in touch. It was really messing me up so I decided to stop contacting him. I know the best thing is no contact, but I wake up every morning and feel sad that he isn’t reaching out. I feel like if he liked me more he’d want to commit to me. I know even that would be bad for me because he’s very DA, and I remind myself of that, but I still feel really sad, lonely, and anxious. Tbh im craving romantic love from him badly. Ugh. I don’t even know if it’s becsuse I really like him for him or if because I’m reacting to his dissmisiveness.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 11, 2018 16:32:17 GMT
Not alone...Part of healing I think is to acknowledge that your feelings and thoughts at one time protected you from hoping too much....also...you did not form them on your own...they were in response to the inconsistency from your parents. It is ok to say..thank you to your thoughts and feelings...but also to recognize that they developed from a place long ago. You can hold them gently, acknowledge the longing and pain from where they developed..and then...you can choose a different response. It is not that you are wrong for having those thoughts and feelings...too often, as an AP, we can go into shame because we think our thoughts and feelings are "wrong" or "unacceptable"...but they are not...they just followed us into our adulthood because we never experienced a secure form of love....so yes...the automatic response will be distrust and pushing away...but if you can sit with it long enough and love yourself through that...you get to the other side and start to trust others and yourself more. 💕💕💕
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 11, 2018 16:34:06 GMT
I think part of my problem is that I’ve had a few friends “break-up” with me when I’ve gotten into a very bad place. I became too much for them. So yeah. It’s a fear, and contributes to my insecurity. On another note, it’s been over 2 weeks now since I heard from the last guy I dated. I ended things with him 2 months ago, but we stayed in touch. It was really messing me up so I decided to stop contacting him. I know the best thing is no contact, but I wake up every morning and feel sad that he isn’t reaching out. I feel like if he liked me more he’d want to commit to me. I know even that would be bad for me because he’s very DA, and I remind myself of that, but I still feel really sad, lonely, and anxious. Tbh im craving romantic love from him badly. Ugh. It's ok...we have all been there....do you have a journal where you can write out the cravings and get them out of your head?? We are here for you. |
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Post by notalone on Aug 11, 2018 16:38:26 GMT
I think part of my problem is that I’ve had a few friends “break-up” with me when I’ve gotten into a very bad place. I became too much for them. So yeah. It’s a fear, and contributes to my insecurity. On another note, it’s been over 2 weeks now since I heard from the last guy I dated. I ended things with him 2 months ago, but we stayed in touch. It was really messing me up so I decided to stop contacting him. I know the best thing is no contact, but I wake up every morning and feel sad that he isn’t reaching out. I feel like if he liked me more he’d want to commit to me. I know even that would be bad for me because he’s very DA, and I remind myself of that, but I still feel really sad, lonely, and anxious. Tbh im craving romantic love from him badly. Ugh. It's ok...we have all been there....do you have a journal where you can write out the cravings and get them out of your head?? We are here for you. I do write out my thoughts often. Right now I’m just trying to keep myself busy. I think focussing on this is futile. I need time. And therapy. Or something. I dunno. |
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Post by alpenglow on Aug 11, 2018 16:42:55 GMT
I think part of my problem is that I’ve had a few friends “break-up” with me when I’ve gotten into a very bad place. I became too much for them. So yeah. It’s a fear, and contributes to my insecurity. On another note, it’s been over 2 weeks now since I heard from the last guy I dated. I ended things with him 2 months ago, but we stayed in touch. It was really messing me up so I decided to stop contacting him. I know the best thing is no contact, but I wake up every morning and feel sad that he isn’t reaching out. I feel like if he liked me more he’d want to commit to me. I know even that would be bad for me because he’s very DA, and I remind myself of that, but I still feel really sad, lonely, and anxious. Tbh im craving romantic love from him badly. Ugh. I don’t even know if it’s becsuse I really like him for him or if because I’m reacting to his dissmisiveness. Sad to hear that you've had that happen to you. It has actually happened once to me, about 20 years ago in my late teens. Someone who could no longer deal with my anxiety, because I wasn't "willing to change".
How is it today? Do you still have some reliable friends?
Like tnr9 said, we've all been there. Totally understand the feeling of craving romantic love or even just normal friendly attention from some DA, despite having ended things with them. I find myself in the same situation these days. I was proud of myself to have ended things for my own sake, but this DA is still playing the push/pull dynamic in the "friendship" we kept. I also need to put an end to this, somehow... |
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Post by notalone on Aug 11, 2018 16:47:20 GMT
I think part of my problem is that I’ve had a few friends “break-up” with me when I’ve gotten into a very bad place. I became too much for them. So yeah. It’s a fear, and contributes to my insecurity. On another note, it’s been over 2 weeks now since I heard from the last guy I dated. I ended things with him 2 months ago, but we stayed in touch. It was really messing me up so I decided to stop contacting him. I know the best thing is no contact, but I wake up every morning and feel sad that he isn’t reaching out. I feel like if he liked me more he’d want to commit to me. I know even that would be bad for me because he’s very DA, and I remind myself of that, but I still feel really sad, lonely, and anxious. Tbh im craving romantic love from him badly. Ugh. I don’t even know if it’s becsuse I really like him for him or if because I’m reacting to his dissmisiveness. Sad to hear that you've had that happen to you. It has actually happened once to me, about 20 years ago in my late teens. Someone who could no longer deal with my anxiety, because I wasn't "willing to change".
How is it today? Do you still have some reliable friends?
Like tnr9 said, we've all been there. Totally understand the feeling of craving romantic love or even just normal friendly attention from some DA, despite having ended things with them. I find myself in the same situation these days. I was proud of myself to have ended things for my own sake, but this DA is still playing the push/pull dynamic in the "friendship" we kept. I also need to put an end to this, somehow... I have some good friends still, yes. I’m just always scared I’ll push them away. |
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Post by alpenglow on Aug 11, 2018 16:52:52 GMT
If they are very good friends, they can deal with a lot of our shit. Mine have a very high tolerance. I never do any kind of harmful behaviour with them (protest behaviour, jealousy, that kind of thing), but they need to be quite patient with me when confronted with my very negative thoughts! Even very good patient friends can deal with a lot, but not absolutely everything. They need some breaks from time to time. I am also sometimes a bit scared to push them away when I am in the pits of depression, but they have reassured me a million times that they will always be there. And I actually believe them.
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