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Post by happyidiot on Sept 13, 2018 5:53:09 GMT
On how common FA is as an attachment style, Jeb says, "Estimates vary, but a good guess is that ... 5% are fearful-avoidant." I have no idea where he got that number, but I dispute it, as I've mentioned in a few threads now, and I've been looking for research. I am posting what I've found out here in case it interests anyone else. Please post any questions, comments or links you see fit. I'm sure I'm missing some important studies or something. The TL;DR version is that we can't really know the prevalence, and I personally think we should quit saying FA is rare and stop disputing it when people believe they or their partner is FA (if the skepticism is based only on the believed rarity). Trying to find out how common the FA attachment style is in adults in difficult and complicated! For one, many studies and literature only recognize 3 types: secure, avoidant, and anxious. The first questionnaires to assess attachment style in adults only included these 3 types. When there is simply no option for FA, people with an FA style are going to get lumped in with either avoidant or anxious. Be aware of this when reading things like self-help sites that describe "avoidants" who sound like a blend of DA and FA. After 4-style tests were developed it was demonstrated that FA was a distinct style, but not everyone has caught up. There is no "correct" or consistent way to decide who is FA because if a person is, say, just slightly in the FA box, towards DA, should they be lumped into DA or FA? Furthermore, experts who developed these kinds of tests recommend people not even be classified at all and that the test results only be described as a score like "4 in anxiety, 3 in avoidance". So if researchers are using it "as recommended" they are not going to be publishing any results that say "there were x number of FAs," or of any attachment style. A person could just describe themselves as, say, "highly anxious and highly avoidant" as opposed to saying "I'm FA." Below is one of the 4-style tests you can take. I get what I think are more accurate results when I think of all my relationships (even those I didn't consider "relationships" in my head) while I take the test, rather than picking one or two. If you just think about one relationship (like your ex who you aren't over, or your current partner) you are going to get results for how you are in that specific relationship as opposed to how you tend to be in general. Plus obviously it helps if you are really self-aware and honest when taking the test. openpsychometrics.org/tests/ECR.phpHere is some interesting detailed information on how adult romantic/peer attachment is measured: labs.psychology.illinois.edu/~rcfraley/measures/measures.htmlAnother problem in finding info about FA style is that there are other names sometimes used for things that are more or less equivalent to or related to FA: fearful, fearful-avoidant, anxious-avoidant, disorganized, unresolved, disoriented... Disorganized/disoriented are more commonly used to describe behavior observed in babies and children, however, and may only roughly correspond to FA because, well, babies and adults are different. "Unresolved" is a bit more complex to explain and I'll get into it below. Thirdly, as I touched on above, ways to measure attachment style are inconsistent and have not really been developed to a useful level. Some studies in adults: Apparently this study of 305 research participants (college students) found that nearly 20% of participants had a fearful-avoidant attachment style (by whatever measure they used), however I can't view the full text of the study without paying. www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886996002772This review of over 10,500 Adult Attachment Interviews (AAI) found 18% "unresolved" attachment in "North American non-clinical mothers," 15% in fathers and 11% in students. They also broke it down for other countries and groups of people but I don't think it's important to list them all here since it's not studying FA but I include it because there might be some correlation with FA. The AAI measure has been shown to have some overlap with attachment constructs of peer/romantic attachment, like the attachment styles we are referring to on this site, but the AAI asks questions about childhood, so rather than being a direct measure of romantic attachment, it primarily taps into person's state of mind regarding their attachment in their family of origin.The "unresolved" classification is used if the interviewee shows "signs of unresolved experiences of trauma." www.researchgate.net/publication/24440045/downloadA study in babies: Van IJzendoorn and Kronenberg's 1988 meta-analysis found rates of disorganized attachment depend on the particular sample studied. The prevalence of disorganized attachment among middle class, white American children was between 12-15% in the Mary Main studies (Main and Solomon 1990). Infants of adolescent mothers had a rate around 30% (Broussard 1995). And infants of abused mothers and psychiatrically ill or substance abusing mothers were found to be as high as 70-80%! (Carlson et al., 1989).
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Post by epicgum on Sept 13, 2018 6:13:41 GMT
Thanks for all of this work happyidiot I agree. The FA thing is very confusing.
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Post by writerguy on Sept 13, 2018 6:29:41 GMT
At first I thought my old gf was DA, but determined she was FA because of the test of having negative feelings of self and negative feelings of others. Also, she could be an emotional mess, and not nearly confident enough to be a DA. I was told by my therapist that it is, indeed, the rarest of the attachment types, though he wouldn't commit to percentages.
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 13, 2018 7:14:50 GMT
At first I thought my old gf was DA, but determined she was FA because of the test of having negative feelings of self and negative feelings of others. Also, she could be an emotional mess, and not nearly confident enough to be a DA. I was told by my therapist that it is, indeed, the rarest of the attachment types, though he wouldn't commit to percentages. I wonder if he was just repeating what he read somewhere, or was basing it on his observations of his clients...
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Post by writerguy on Sept 13, 2018 13:50:22 GMT
At first I thought my old gf was DA, but determined she was FA because of the test of having negative feelings of self and negative feelings of others. Also, she could be an emotional mess, and not nearly confident enough to be a DA. I was told by my therapist that it is, indeed, the rarest of the attachment types, though he wouldn't commit to percentages. I wonder if he was just repeating what he read somewhere, or was basing it on his observations of his clients... He did call her the "unicorn" of attachment types. He's done extensive reading on attachment types and ran down a couple of checklists with me to let me know what I was looking at.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 13, 2018 15:49:48 GMT
I do think there's something to be said for insecure attracting each other, even as friends. Based on the sheer number of people I know, I still think the FA percentage is small but the more I learn about this stuff the more certain I am that most of the people closest to me over years and years are insecure, so it seems like more because it is disproportionate.
I also theorize that if you're insecure and not paired off, as you get older you may start to have even more insecure friends because the secure ones are busier with their families and kids and other insecures are still single with more time on their hands or recovering from tumultuous relationships ending and more in need of having friends around.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the research because it does seem to be incomplete. But personal anecdotes make it harder to tell because of my reasoning above.
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Post by epicgum on Sept 13, 2018 16:08:06 GMT
I do think there's something to be said for insecure attracting each other, even as friends. Based on the sheer number of people I know, I still think the FA percentage is small but the more I learn about this stuff the more certain I am that most of the people closest to me over years and years are insecure, so it seems like more because it is disproportionate. I also theorize that if you're insecure and not paired off, as you get older you may start to have even more insecure friends because the secure ones are busier with their families and kids and other insecures are still single with more time on their hands or recovering from tumultuous relationships ending and more in need of having friends around. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the research because it does seem to be incomplete. But personal anecdotes make it harder to tell because of my reasoning above. I agree with that. I also just think that there's some inherent inability to connect. I don't think I would feel comfortable with a magical secure person who had no problems or insecurities...what would we have in common? It would be like bonding to a rock!
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Post by epicgum on Sept 13, 2018 16:29:48 GMT
happyidiotHave you thought more about the one link that you posted on the "talk" thread that said that actual FA is rare, but that many people have a mix of AP and DA traits...which causes them to THINK they are FA?
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Post by writerguy on Sept 13, 2018 18:53:08 GMT
I do think there's something to be said for insecure attracting each other, even as friends. Based on the sheer number of people I know, I still think the FA percentage is small but the more I learn about this stuff the more certain I am that most of the people closest to me over years and years are insecure, so it seems like more because it is disproportionate. I also theorize that if you're insecure and not paired off, as you get older you may start to have even more insecure friends because the secure ones are busier with their families and kids and other insecures are still single with more time on their hands or recovering from tumultuous relationships ending and more in need of having friends around. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the research because it does seem to be incomplete. But personal anecdotes make it harder to tell because of my reasoning above. I agree with that. I also just think that there's some inherent inability to connect. I don't think I would feel comfortable with a magical secure person who had no problems or insecurities...what would we have in common? It would be like bonding to a rock! So funny you say that because my FA ex used to call me "her rock." (also "Her savior" "her safety net" "reliable and trustworthy.") I would tell her I'm not a rock...I'm a tree and I need nourishment and love like anyone else.
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Post by epicgum on Sept 13, 2018 18:57:57 GMT
I agree with that. I also just think that there's some inherent inability to connect. I don't think I would feel comfortable with a magical secure person who had no problems or insecurities...what would we have in common? It would be like bonding to a rock! So funny you say that because my FA ex used to call me "her rock." (also "Her savior" "her safety net" "reliable and trustworthy.") I would tell her I'm not a rock...I'm a tree and I need nourishment and love like anyone else. haha, that's so funny...I had a somewhat similar experience I suppose in failing to water my emotional "foundation", but I also saw my partners insecurities and vulnerabilities and found them endearing, appealing and familiar. When I said "rock" I mean like an inanimate object.
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Post by writerguy on Sept 13, 2018 19:35:25 GMT
So funny you say that because my FA ex used to call me "her rock." (also "Her savior" "her safety net" "reliable and trustworthy.") I would tell her I'm not a rock...I'm a tree and I need nourishment and love like anyone else. haha, that's so funny...I had a somewhat similar experience I suppose in failing to water my emotional "foundation", but I also saw my partners insecurities and vulnerabilities and found them endearing, appealing and familiar. When I said "rock" I mean like an inanimate object. Oh, I know. It just struck me as funny. I even told her once "even a rock needs a little cool rain on it every now and again." Just a question if you don't mind: did you actually miss your partners when there was time/distance? My ex would send me the sweetest emails if I was on a business trip or had pulled away because I was frustrated with her. But then the dance would begin anew when I was around too much.
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Post by epicgum on Sept 13, 2018 20:08:07 GMT
haha, that's so funny...I had a somewhat similar experience I suppose in failing to water my emotional "foundation", but I also saw my partners insecurities and vulnerabilities and found them endearing, appealing and familiar. When I said "rock" I mean like an inanimate object. Oh, I know. It just struck me as funny. I even told her once "even a rock needs a little cool rain on it every now and again." Just a question if you don't mind: did you actually miss your partners when there was time/distance? My ex would send me the sweetest emails if I was on a business trip or had pulled away because I was frustrated with her. But then the dance would begin anew when I was around too much. Oh definitely. I fantasized about her endlessly when I was traveling, especially when I got towards the end of a long trip. Of course, if I'm being honest I was more in love with the fantasy of who she was and who she could be, than her actual person. That's part of why I didn't want to live together, I liked the distance and the fantasy that that distance allowed. But, not too much distance!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 20:38:45 GMT
I do think there's something to be said for insecure attracting each other, even as friends. Based on the sheer number of people I know, I still think the FA percentage is small but the more I learn about this stuff the more certain I am that most of the people closest to me over years and years are insecure, so it seems like more because it is disproportionate. I also theorize that if you're insecure and not paired off, as you get older you may start to have even more insecure friends because the secure ones are busier with their families and kids and other insecures are still single with more time on their hands or recovering from tumultuous relationships ending and more in need of having friends around. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the research because it does seem to be incomplete. But personal anecdotes make it harder to tell because of my reasoning above. I agree with that. I also just think that there's some inherent inability to connect. I don't think I would feel comfortable with a magical secure person who had no problems or insecurities...what would we have in common? It would be like bonding to a rock! I couldn't agree more, I just don't feel a connection with many secures, I start to feel self conscious and some how uncomfortable. That might be just me though.
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 14, 2018 1:48:46 GMT
happyidiot Have you thought more about the one link that you posted on the "talk" thread that said that actual FA is rare, but that many people have a mix of AP and DA traits...which causes them to THINK they are FA? I didn't post it, stayhappy did (understandable confusion). It doesn't quite say "a mix," what it says is: Link: www.emotionenhancement.com/single-post/Attachment-Styles-In-Adults/The-Fearful-Avoidant-Attachment-StyleI thought about it a lot, as I already saw it a while back. I disagree with the implication that that scenario accounts for many cases of people believing they are FA. I think there is a big difference between someone who is mainly DA finding themselves getting anxious on rare occasions when dating someone way more DA than them, compared to someone who is generally feeling and acting FA most of the time. FA has distinct patterns, personality traits and beliefs. Every attachment style is dynamic, and every person's attachment is going to change depending on the person we are attaching (or not) to, other life stressors, etc. This is why I initially believed my type was AP, because I was only looking at the few times I was pulled into a very AP mode. The most AP person I know started feeling/acting avoidant once or twice, when faced with someone who was behaving incredibly AP. This is not indicative of an FA style. She would not read a description of FA or take a test and think, "Guess I must be FA." If someone is unsure if they are FA versus AP who is occasionally avoidant or DA who is occasionally anxious, they can take tests and answer super honestly while thinking of all their romantic/dating situations and relationships and also read descriptions of characteristics that will be present that aren't dependent on how they feel in a particular romantic relationship. Like someone FA will have low self-esteem, whereas a DA has high self-esteem.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 16:19:53 GMT
I've been thinking about this a lot too. I test as FA leaning towards AP, but the rarity and some descriptions of the style have made me question it. I don’t relate much to the push-pull-behaviour, at least not on a conscious level, but many other traits of the style feel very familiar, especially the negative view of self and others and being fearful and indecisive in relationships. Hard to trust anyone ( or myself), hard to get close to people and let them close to me. Very hard to get into relationships (experiencing my first real one in late 20s). Childhood experiences sound familiar, too, and I've had my share of mental problems associated with FA style. I believe my mother is also FA. It needs to be remembered that attachment theory is a theory. There are no truths out there, only lots of contradictory information. Not all sources are reliable and based on research or clinical experience. I don’t really trust the tests either. The questions can be interpreted in so many ways. For example, things like intimacy and being close to someone mean very different things to different people. There also seems to be a lot of confusion between dynamic and style. Is attachment style a style at all, or always a dynamic? Is it something that exists in a person as a result of their childhood attachments or something that develops between two people? Do we only get attached to people who enable us to participate in a certain dynamic and lose interest in them if they don’t? I think there is no point in defining a "style" if it can change from relationship to another. A dynamic changes, a style doesn’t (if there aren’t some major life events or conscious effort to do so). If there is a such a thing as a stable style - and let’s assume there is - I believe it is defined by how much you need intimacy, what kind of partners you feel attracted to and how you generally view yourself, your partners and your relationships. That being said, I’m not that sure about the theory of DAs becoming anxious when meeting someone more DA. Isn’t DA defined by the absence of anxiety? Anxiety comes from idealization of a partner and a negative view of self and it makes you chase. For DAs, the self is enough and a relationship is never a priority. If they feel their partner pulling away, they just don’t care. It’s been said that DAs don’t tend to date each other because of this. I think many of those who fluctuate between AP and DA behaviour are really either AP or FA. Maybe FA is just the “grey area” between AP and DA and they are much more common than 5 %. The usual FA description - craving intimacy and pulling away from it in the same relationship - seems to be rare, but is it really the only way to experience the FA style? Doesn’t the need to push and pull depend on the partner? If you are with another avoidant, your anxious side is more dominant and you feel no need to pull away, but it doesn't mean your style can’t be anxious avoidant (FA). But your anxiety keeps you hooked. This has been the case with me and my DA(/FA?) partner. In this case, many FAs may actually be confused with APs. People often ask what is the difference between FAs and DAs and they get compared to each other, as if the avoidant side was more dominant in FAs and they had more in common with DAs. FAs have anxiety, too, and they may become very dependent, just like APs. I find it confusing that some texts describe APs as being clingy, dramatic, calling you all the time and always asking for reassurance and attention, but some texts say APs tend to hide their needs, be ashamed of them and ask for too little in their relationships because they believe their needs can't be met. This is a clear difference between activity (vulnerability) and passivity (fear of vulnerability) and in my opinion, they can't be in the same attachment style, because the former sees others as available and the latter sees others as unavailable. They are completely different ways of relating. Maybe this is actually the difference between AP and FA? FAs can’t be vulnerable so they deny and hide their needs (avoidant trait), but they don’t feel comfortable that way (anxious trait). I think many APs can handle real intimacy and so they sometimes pair with secures. APs can also be anxious with secures, too, because some secures want less intimacy than them. But for FAs, the intimacy of secures may be too much because secures tend to want more intimacy than them (as shown in the avoidance-anxiety-axis). Push-pull may ensue, or maybe it just ends before it begins (come to think of it, I think I may have pushed and pulled and given mixed signals with secures... until I've ended it or they've given up). Now that you said it, FAs really have nothing in common with secures. They share the avoidance with DAs and anxiety with APs but secures just feel like aliens to FAs. Someone who is available and not anxious, positive with themselves and others – what is that?! I can confirm all my friends are some sort of insecures, and at least two of them are probably also FA. I remember feeling a strange connection to these FA friends immediately when I met them, and they have said the same about me. Sometimes I wonder if my boyfriend is FA, too. He seems mainly DA but sometimes he's just too self-critical, people-pleasing and fragile to really be a DA. The link given by happyidiot in the previous message as well as this text describe well the kind of FA style I'm talking about: the-love-compass.com/2013/09/17/the-fearful-avoidant-attachment-style/
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