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Post by ocarina on Sept 29, 2018 21:12:29 GMT
So - treading something of a tightrope between intimacy and honesty on the one hand and pulling away/ self preservation on the other.
My situation - for those who don't know already, is that I have tended towards DA behaviours in relationships in the past - been with a partner for 6 years who is more avoidant than me - we have been apart several times before - all my instigation as his distant behaviours left me feeling isolated and insecure.
After a whole 18 months apart he came back, saying for the first time, that he loved me, wanted this to work - has been working with meditation etc. It was the last thing I expected to happen and in some ways a big relief - since then there has been proper emotional honesty and intimacy between us - nothing physical at my request.
We both had trips booked - so won't have seen each other for a month and only been in touch by text message over this time. I have found that during our time apart I have become more distant, less trusting of the process - often I hear nothing from him for days and old fears kick in.
To be honest I don't doubt he loves me - but I am uncertain that he's truly aware of how deep the behavioural traits that come with avoidance run. At the moment it's as though he's drunk a love potion still - and he misses what we had - but going forward, I can feel old patterns resurfacing and I am very very loathe to repeat the cycle yet again. I tend to be very trusting and have trusted him more than once when he returned after a break - but this time round I worked hard on my very painful journey to healing and I just can't seem to throw myself into the fire again.
This is a man who's in his late 40s history of extreme fear of commitment and responsibility. Some things have changed - the open communication, the saying I love you and talk of a future together (which he admits he never previously considered). My gut feeling is that it's easy for these things to be said when you're longing for someones company - quite another thing to actually follow through when the going gets tough which at some point of course it will.
I think there's an expectation on his part that things will continue where they left off - but I have a gut feeling he has more work to do - and I need to feel safe. Sometimes I wonder what that would take - maybe consistency over time, I did, when we separated, ask if he'd consider seeing a counsellor - to which an instant answer of no, he couldn't see the point.
Anyway rambling now - I am continuing to work on my own process and my world is good and full of joy. I love our increasing closeness but I also have good reason to fear it based on past behaviours and patterns.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 29, 2018 21:37:59 GMT
I'm not DA and this is in the support section, but have you spoken to him about what you've gotten out of counseling? Sometimes it takes the seed of an example being planted without pushing the person. He may see your growth and store it in the back of his mind for when he's ready to think about it.
I'm also inclined to think if your gut says he has more work to do, then he probably does. Which doesn't mean you need to distance yourself, but you may want to check in with yourself again, see what needs you have currently, decide if he's meeting them as he is now. If there are non-attachment things he can do better (ie concerns you're having that are about the two of you and not about your past before knowing him), keep communicating them with him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 21:40:03 GMT
ocarina, I agree with you that things are easy to say in the moment, and old patterns don't just go away after a period apart. Time itself changes nothing unless he has done some inner work. Even with some work done, the patterns are likely still there, perhaps to a smaller degree. As you know, true change comes with awareness. Even with awareness, it's hard to change. But I also know that sometimes we have to see it to believe it. We have to fall into the fire once again to make sure it still burns. I wish you luck. I have been where you are a few times and it's the worst.
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 29, 2018 21:45:08 GMT
Ocarina, it sounds like you trust heel feelings, but are unsure if he is able to continue to act on his feelings over time, is this correct?
What do you feel about his intentions and what actions do you consistently observe?
What practices does he have in place to work on or with his avoidance?
*~❤~*~❤~*
I am glad to see you continuing your work on your own process and in a place of goodness and Joy!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 2:50:37 GMT
my perspective is that as DA, he is also afraid of rejection.
that's a very deep fear for dismissives.
as a dismissive, i have often felt the fear of rejection with distance from my partner, and then over time realized that his avoidance is also accompanied by fear of rejection. doh!
it's been mystifying to me how i have missed so much , like i only was able to see the traits i like or appreciate in our dual dismissive relationship, and sometimes failed to recognize the similarity of the pain.
i don't know if that resonates or not. but i have made effort consistent about initiating contact and keeping the warmth going with a dismissive partner, instead of every time, getting triggered into my own deactivation and fear.
every individual and relationship is different. i don't know if you initiate contact when he doesn't or if it triggers you to deactivate. do you reach out if he doesn't?
i figured out that sometimes fear of rejection deactivated my partner.
of course it did.
happens to me all the time. also happens to other dismissives. it takes a lot of vulnerability and openness to make headway between two insecurely attaches people, for sure.
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Post by ocarina on Sept 30, 2018 12:12:50 GMT
Ocarina, it sounds like you trust heel feelings, but are unsure if he is able to continue to act on his feelings over time, is this correct? What do you feel about his intentions and what actions do you consistently observe? What practices does he have in place to work on or with his avoidance? *~❤~*~❤~* I am glad to see you continuing your work on your own process and in a place of goodness and Joy! Yes Goldilocks I am unsure if he's able to continue to act in a loving way - I am also sensitised in the extreme to being vulnerable with someone ( my mother being the prime example) and them just checking out. When we separated before, I asked for his help to navigate our relationship because I was struggling with his lack of presence - and he literally disappeared off the radar for 18 months - that, after being vulnerable and brave and honest, was really really difficult to navigate, but I came out stronger and wiser. I recognise that I am triggered by his lack of contact because it was such a prominent feature in our previous relationship - and I have made big efforts this time round to actually contact him during his silence. But there is a past experience of unreturned messages, going off the radar for days at a time, secrecy (not purposefully just a lack of sharing of experience) that has left me, if I am honest, feeling a lack of trust in the process. I am not sure what he has in place - beside a regular meditation practice - and I know that for alot of the time we were apart he was in denial and avoiding feeling anything at all - instead blaming me - even though he knew deep down it was not my fault. So this new realisation is just that - a new realisation. |
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Post by ocarina on Sept 30, 2018 12:15:15 GMT
my perspective is that as DA, he is also afraid of rejection. that's a very deep fear for dismissives. as a dismissive, i have often felt the fear of rejection with distance from my partner, and then over time realized that his avoidance is also accompanied by fear of rejection. doh! it's been mystifying to me how i have missed so much , like i only was able to see the traits i like or appreciate in our dual dismissive relationship, and sometimes failed to recognize the similarity of the pain. i don't know if that resonates or not. but i have made effort consistent about initiating contact and keeping the warmth going with a dismissive partner, instead of every time, getting triggered into my own deactivation and fear. every individual and relationship is different. i don't know if you initiate contact when he doesn't or if it triggers you to deactivate. do you reach out if he doesn't? i figured out that sometimes fear of rejection deactivated my partner. of course it did. happens to me all the time. also happens to other dismissives. it takes a lot of vulnerability and openness to make headway between two insecurely attaches people, for sure. yes - and it's my hideously deep fear of rejection that's being activated here and resulting in my horrible looping mind stories. I can see that in myself - and I hate it. It's one of the reasons I want to run, simply to escape from that raw feeling of needing someone, or feeling jealous or needy. As a DA these are just the worst afflictions ever and I can't bear it in myself. It takes quite alot to admit that of course! |
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Post by ocarina on Sept 30, 2018 12:21:00 GMT
I haven't talked to him about my counselling - again probably deep down for fear of appearing weak.
I feel a zillion times better today - a swim in the sea always does the trick, getting back into my body and out of my head and I think this is what I need to do again and again to gain clarity (Maybe not the swim part!)
I did contact him after I recognised that part of my reticence was my own deactivation - going something along the lines of, he wasn't in touch for 3 days therefore why should I reply to his latest message? Of course that's childlike and counterproductive gameplaying so I have pulled my socks up and replied.
One thing that may not have helped is the fact that he's on a trip with lots of other people - some probably lovely girls and you know what? I feel (or told myself) that part of his silence was related to this. I hate to admit this - it's weak and mean spirited particularly since I spend lots and lots of time in male company, often handsome young bucks - and he must deal with this. Double standards I know.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 13:23:47 GMT
my perspective is that as DA, he is also afraid of rejection. that's a very deep fear for dismissives. as a dismissive, i have often felt the fear of rejection with distance from my partner, and then over time realized that his avoidance is also accompanied by fear of rejection. doh! it's been mystifying to me how i have missed so much , like i only was able to see the traits i like or appreciate in our dual dismissive relationship, and sometimes failed to recognize the similarity of the pain. i don't know if that resonates or not. but i have made effort consistent about initiating contact and keeping the warmth going with a dismissive partner, instead of every time, getting triggered into my own deactivation and fear. every individual and relationship is different. i don't know if you initiate contact when he doesn't or if it triggers you to deactivate. do you reach out if he doesn't? i figured out that sometimes fear of rejection deactivated my partner. of course it did. happens to me all the time. also happens to other dismissives. it takes a lot of vulnerability and openness to make headway between two insecurely attaches people, for sure. yes - and it's my hideously deep fear of rejection that's being activated here and resulting in my horrible looping mind stories. I can see that in myself - and I hate it. It's one of the reasons I want to run, simply to escape from that raw feeling of needing someone, or feeling jealous or needy. As a DA these are just the worst afflictions ever and I can't bear it in myself. It takes quite alot to admit that of course! we have to be really careful about analyzing whether or not the other person is doing enough work or advanced enough to have a relationship with us. if we are deactivating out of a fear of rejection andnhaving a hard time bridging the gap, opening, and becoming vulnerable in communication about that, then we are not operating in a way that supports union and intimacy. fear about another's ability to meet us is often an inability to meet ourselves and to meet the other. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 13:26:44 GMT
I haven't talked to him about my counselling - again probably deep down for fear of appearing weak. I feel a zillion times better today - a swim in the sea always does the trick, getting back into my body and out of my head and I think this is what I need to do again and again to gain clarity (Maybe not the swim part!) I did contact him after I recognised that part of my reticence was my own deactivation - going something along the lines of, he wasn't in touch for 3 days therefore why should I reply to his latest message? Of course that's childlike and counterproductive gameplaying so I have pulled my socks up and replied. One thing that may not have helped is the fact that he's on a trip with lots of other people - some probably lovely girls and you know what? I feel (or told myself) that part of his silence was related to this. I hate to admit this - it's weak and mean spirited particularly since I spend lots and lots of time in male company, often handsome young bucks - and he must deal with this. Double standards I know. you're getting it. stay out of his head and deal with what's really going in your own and you will feel much more balanced and empowered. and, this way, no matter the outcome you will have developed a lot more emotional intimacy with yourself, as well as the capacity to engage another with authenticity and vulnerability. i know the impulse to play a game, and i choose to remain consistent with contact to do my part of showing up. if i get deactivated and recognize it, i reach out. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 13:33:48 GMT
I'm not DA and this is in the support section, but have you spoken to him about what you've gotten out of counseling? Sometimes it takes the seed of an example being planted without pushing the person. He may see your growth and store it in the back of his mind for when he's ready to think about it. I'm also inclined to think if your gut says he has more work to do, then he probably does. Which doesn't mean you need to distance yourself, but you may want to check in with yourself again, see what needs you have currently, decide if he's meeting them as he is now. If there are non-attachment things he can do better (ie concerns you're having that are about the two of you and not about your past before knowing him), keep communicating them with him. my take on this is that each of us, ocarina included, need to examine these fears about another person and see if they are projections. this is not to say that her partner is relationship ready. but, as it played out in the thread, ocarina realized she was deactivating and doing her own internal defensive mechanism. the dismissive path is going to involve examining how we react to fear by deactivating and her dismissive partner will have the same path. neither has the need to examine the other's readiness and capacity without first concentrating on their own. over time i think that things can become more clear but it's a long road to deal with one's own deactivation and shutting down. it takes a lot of practice. so, of course a distant partner is not meeting any needs but neither is the distant partner who is not having needs met. the need is to show up consistently, over time, that can be practiced and worked on as a couple. it's not fair to put the onus on a partner when we are operating in our own fearful patterns. |
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 30, 2018 16:03:49 GMT
Yes Goldilocks I am unsure if he's able to continue to act in a loving way - I am also sensitised in the extreme to being vulnerable with someone ( my mother being the prime example) and them just checking out. When we separated before, I asked for his help to navigate our relationship because I was struggling with his lack of presence - and he literally disappeared off the radar for 18 months - that, after being vulnerable and brave and honest, was really really difficult to navigate, but I came out stronger and wiser. I recognise that I am triggered by his lack of contact because it was such a prominent feature in our previous relationship - and I have made big efforts this time round to actually contact him during his silence. But there is a past experience of unreturned messages, going off the radar for days at a time, secrecy (not purposefully just a lack of sharing of experience) that has left me, if I am honest, feeling a lack of trust in the process. I am not sure what he has in place - beside a regular meditation practice - and I know that for alot of the time we were apart he was in denial and avoiding feeling anything at all - instead blaming me - even though he knew deep down it was not my fault. So this new realisation is just that - a new realisation. @ The bold parts: What can you do to remain in the present moment, responding only to the events currently taking place? Meditation is good. It helps one feel the feelings and sensations and be less reactive to triggers. It is also distinct from therapy. |
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 30, 2018 16:10:52 GMT
I haven't talked to him about my counselling - again probably deep down for fear of appearing weak. I feel a zillion times better today - a swim in the sea always does the trick, getting back into my body and out of my head and I think this is what I need to do again and again to gain clarity (Maybe not the swim part!) I did contact him after I recognised that part of my reticence was my own deactivation - going something along the lines of, he wasn't in touch for 3 days therefore why should I reply to his latest message? Of course that's childlike and counterproductive gameplaying so I have pulled my socks up and replied. One thing that may not have helped is the fact that he's on a trip with lots of other people - some probably lovely girls and you know what? I feel (or told myself) that part of his silence was related to this. I hate to admit this - it's weak and mean spirited particularly since I spend lots and lots of time in male company, often handsome young bucks - and he must deal with this. Double standards I know. What do you fear might happen when you appear weak? Can you sit with that fear and experience it fully? Can you keep breathing deeply and feel your body while feeling this fear? Maybe you do need to swim again and again, or at least regularly. Gameplaying invites more gameplaying. That said, even when we are authentic others may play us. Can you also sit with your jealousy, be aware that both of you have other options and feel the emotions including the fear of loss if that is behind the jealousy? Can you keep breathing deeply and feel your body while feeling this fear? Would it be rational to trust that he will be kind to you when you are vulnerable and loyal to you in the face of other options? Would you like to trust that he will? If not what would it take? |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 30, 2018 16:52:58 GMT
my take on this is that each of us, ocarina included, need to examine these fears about another person and see if they are projections. this is not to say that her partner is relationship ready. but, as it played out in the thread, ocarina realized she was deactivating and doing her own internal defensive mechanism. the dismissive path is going to involve examining how we react to fear by deactivating and her dismissive partner will have the same path. neither has the need to examine the other's readiness and capacity without first concentrating on their own. over time i think that things can become more clear but it's a long road to deal with one's own deactivation and shutting down. it takes a lot of practice. so, of course a distant partner is not meeting any needs but neither is the distant partner who is not having needs met. the need is to show up consistently, over time, that can be practiced and worked on as a couple. it's not fair to put the onus on a partner when we are operating in our own fearful patterns. I think we were actually saying the same thing, though written differently. When I suggested to talk about any non- attachment issues that might be actual needs not being met, I was implying that the self work also needs to be done to sort out those from projections/issues happening because of one's own attachment issues (the ones I said have been there since before meeting him). |
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Post by ocarina on Sept 30, 2018 17:12:00 GMT
Thank you all of you for the very timely reminder to get back into my own court....
The important thing here is my reaction to the situation - which is to go down all kinds of mental formations and rationalisations in order not to feel - and then to justify my emotional withdrawal from this place of fear.
It is more difficult to navigate when we are not together in person since the opportunity for real communication is not there. I did manage to follow the trail yesterday - from my feeling of fear and emptiness down the road of defining this as a problem caused by him, embelished with some imaginary parts about what was going on his side and ending in the usual emotional withdrawal.
Goldilocks I will continue to sit with it - and whatever happens I need to trust the process otherwise I learn nothing from what's going on and the cycle will repeat again and again.
I so agree that we can only really trust when we are available enough to ourselves, to trust ourselves - when we are not it falls to the other person to do all the work which is just not what it's all about. So, back into my own head, or perhaps even better my own body and my own now.
In our previous relationship I took on an intensely dismissive role alot of the time - totally as a result of self protection and this is something that has repeated time and time again in other relationships. I agree that kind of gameplaying is for kids and since it's not what I want from a relationship I need to stop doing it - and I have. To be honest if me initating contact leads him to shut down (it hasn't yet btw) then it's better to know it now than to play the unavailable role and wait until years down the line when the other shoe drops.
I am interested in what the other dismissives here see as emotional availability or its antithesis? What kind of road have you taken away from the cage of emotional unavailability and how has it impacted your life?
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