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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 14:52:30 GMT
I think this is very true. So...how do you suggest I would best bring up a concern or topic of discussion that would not be perceived as critical? Focus on positive first and ask more questions about how my partner feels it could be addressed? For example, instead of saying I’d like to go out more, ask my partner if he feels about how often we go out (meaning leave the house opposed to sitting home together). I’m not used to posing concerns with a question- that may be less critical to a partner? He definitely perceived it as criticism and that he couldn’t make me happy- another time we were relaxing together and having a good night and I asked if he ever felt depressed and he also reacted very strongly, and instead of answering said I shouldn’t be with him that weekend- then he retracted that. History plays a big part in interactions. It may not be this one or two scenarios that is evoking the reaction.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 14:56:46 GMT
So...how do you suggest I would best bring up a concern or topic of discussion that would not be perceived as critical? Focus on positive first and ask more questions about how my partner feels it could be addressed? For example, instead of saying I’d like to go out more, ask my partner if he feels about how often we go out (meaning leave the house opposed to sitting home together). I’m not used to posing concerns with a question- that may be less critical to a partner? He definitely perceived it as criticism and that he couldn’t make me happy- another time we were relaxing together and having a good night and I asked if he ever felt depressed and he also reacted very strongly, and instead of answering said I shouldn’t be with him that weekend- then he retracted that. History plays a big part in interactions. It may not be this one or two scenarios that is evoking the reaction. historical protest behavior + asking and probing about mood = ewwwwww
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 15:07:01 GMT
i think it's helpful also to point out that a pattern of protest behavior by an AP results in a loss of respect by a DA. A DA, male or female, will feel repelled by someone they do not respect as being strong and stable. this is a consistent theme with every DA i know on and off these boards.
act out with drama and protest behavior and we lose respect for you.
hate it, but it's real. that's why this is just such a toxic and negative dynamic, and DA leave because it doesn't work.
that's what we do. we leave. AP cling. the Trap. it's a Trap. and both partners dislike it intensely.
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Post by boomerang on Nov 9, 2018 17:18:56 GMT
So...how do you suggest I would best bring up a concern or topic of discussion that would not be perceived as critical? Focus on positive first and ask more questions about how my partner feels it could be addressed? For example, instead of saying I’d like to go out more, ask my partner if he feels about how often we go out (meaning leave the house opposed to sitting home together). I’m not used to posing concerns with a question- that may be less critical to a partner? He definitely perceived it as criticism and that he couldn’t make me happy- another time we were relaxing together and having a good night and I asked if he ever felt depressed and he also reacted very strongly, and instead of answering said I shouldn’t be with him that weekend- then he retracted that. History plays a big part in interactions. It may not be this one or two scenarios that is evoking the reaction. I totally agree with this. And it builds on both sides. I don't think, as I used to, that the dance is simply "push/pull". That part is there, but the dance becomes more like, on both sides, "you are doing it again" and then reacting more strongly. It takes on a life of it's own. It's pushing buttons, and those buttons get reinforced--or not. It certainly happened in my relationship. Both sides.
Problem is, it takes time even begin to understand the other person, so how to navigate this? As an AP, I don't think walking on eggshells (suppressing) is the answer--in my case, it just made me anxious. And I wasn't true to myself.
There is nothing wrong , though, with examining different communication styles and seeing what keeps the channels open and what doesn't, rather than defaulting to one's norm, as a path to avoid growing those buttons. Triggers. Whatever you want to call it. The way, not just the content. That makes the message the other person hears--the combination of the two.
And sometimes there is no way, as my content is unacceptable to the him/his content is unacceptable to me (we cannot meet the needs of the other person and ourselves as the same time) or the triggers are so sensitive that no way can be found, even if each would be willing to compromise in principle. That really isn't anyone's fault. Just a fact to be reckoned with, I guess.
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Post by ocarina on Nov 9, 2018 17:29:12 GMT
re- Word Origin a prefix, occurring originally in loanwords from Latin, used with the meaning “again” or “again and again” to indicate repetition, or with the meaning “back” or “backward” to indicate withdrawal or backward motion:
So Re (again) Sentment (from Sentir old French for feel)
Over time we re feel old wounds again and again and the reality becomes skewed by hurt on both sides.
I love words
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Post by boomerang on Nov 9, 2018 17:44:00 GMT
History plays a big part in interactions. It may not be this one or two scenarios that is evoking the reaction. historical protest behavior + asking and probing about mood = ewwwwww Hmmm...the two things may not be connected at all in that example. He might well react like that to any one who asked about his mental state, particularly if it was something he felt was a sign of weakness or something that spoke to his character. Sometimes it doesn't matter who the speaker is or their attachment style: If it is something the listener is sensitive about--s/he reacts. Just more openly with people they know well. It could be just that.
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 9, 2018 19:53:27 GMT
historical protest behavior + asking and probing about mood = ewwwwww Hmmm...the two things may not be connected at all in that example. He might well react like that to any one who asked about his mental state, particularly if it was something he felt was a sign of weakness or something that spoke to his character. Sometimes it doesn't matter who the speaker is or their attachment style: If it is something the listener is sensitive about--s/he reacts. Just more openly with people they know well. It could be just that. I agree that he’s very private and closed off. He views intimacy as an intrusion.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 20:13:53 GMT
historical protest behavior + asking and probing about mood = ewwwwww Hmmm...the two things may not be connected at all in that example. He might well react like that to any one who asked about his mental state, particularly if it was something he felt was a sign of weakness or something that spoke to his character. Sometimes it doesn't matter who the speaker is or their attachment style: If it is something the listener is sensitive about--s/he reacts. Just more openly with people they know well. It could be just that. who knows. like i have said, i don't know his mind. it's my perspective as DA looking at what's been shared. and. i've experienced it. so for what it's worth, in my opinion, historical protest behavior + asking about mood makes me feel a certain way which i expressed . just my two cents.
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 9, 2018 20:24:33 GMT
So...how do you suggest I would best bring up a concern or topic of discussion that would not be perceived as critical? Focus on positive first and ask more questions about how my partner feels it could be addressed? For example, instead of saying I’d like to go out more, ask my partner if he feels about how often we go out (meaning leave the house opposed to sitting home together). I’m not used to posing concerns with a question- that may be less critical to a partner? He definitely perceived it as criticism and that he couldn’t make me happy- another time we were relaxing together and having a good night and I asked if he ever felt depressed and he also reacted very strongly, and instead of answering said I shouldn’t be with him that weekend- then he retracted that. i'm going to be frank here, and offer advice in answer to your question. please keep in mind my intention is to just help you understand so that you can see more clearly why things aren't working in spite of your good intentions. i can't read his mind but i can offer a bare analysis based on what you've shared. there's no spite in the following: Get him out of the fishbowl in terms of his mood. do not analyze and probe it. do your best to change your habit of being concerned about his internal state, don't try to help. don't ask. let him share if he wants to but leave that to his discretion and timing and willingness. step way back and turn your focus to your own internal state at all times, leaving him to analyze and work with his own in complete privacy. Get out of his head once and for all. i say this because i see it as quite possible that he feels very engulfed by you. perhaps deeply and consistently criticized, poked, and prodded to be other than he is, he may feel criticized and infantilized by a woman who at the same time wants to "help, support, heal" him. he may feel that just when he is relaxed you bring up a suggestion for improvement. he may feel exasperated by not being able to just be, without sensing your dissatisfaction, worry, and discontent. if he does feel so, (and who knows; i don't. i would in his position. but i'm not him) then your absence would be a relief, and unless you alter your approach he will not let you continue to influence him that way with your unhappiness. also, in terms of the desire for more together time. please read the thread i posted in the DA support forum where we are discussing in our safe space about the difficulty of that for us. This is why your request could have seemed overwhelming and the last straw, piled on any other protest behavior or critical words you may have shared with him. if an AP who had protested strongly or with regularity with me in the past asked me to plan more together time ( a capacity i simply lack, and don't care to try to develop a to please anyone at this point in my life) i would perhaps just want to be done also, whether anyone else can understand or support me or not. i'd just have to draw a line somewhere with all the differing needs and capacities between AP/DA. this request would shine a bright light on the fundamentally OPPOSITE drives ; its the very difference between AP and DA in a nutshell. and the price of being unable to meet this need based on my internal wiring and capacity, = unhappy AP = protest behavior = NO. NO . that's where i let go and just need to be alone and stop trying to fit someone's agenda that simply does. not. jive. with. mine. this post may or may not be well supported by AP here, but remember. i am not stuck in that trap, and this is simply a DA perspective of that dynamic and why i don't and won't go there again. trying to be helpful. but it's the hard truth of how DA respond to AP needs for relationship. Thanks for your input...as far as being in context, this conflict about leaving the house more than 2 hours a month was the first straw, not the last straw, and probably equally surprised both of us. I thought he overreacted- he thought I was critical and unhappy w him. It was the first time our attachment vices manifested. Before that I was the “most wonderful person he ever met” and he wanted to marry me etc I thought he was more open to talk. Moving forward, regardless of my ex, I want to hone my communication skills and be more self-aware of how my words are perceived. I left a 25 year marriage a couple years ago and wouldn’t have thought twice about bringing up the topic of wanting to go out more. It would’ve rolled off my ex husband who is probably a mild FA...so this is a whole new set of communication skills to me and I appreciate feedback to better myself and future relationships. And agreed...I need to shift focus on me bc it’s helpful to me and detrimental anyway to keep it on him. Your description of the focus being a major turn off to him sounds like an accurate description of his thoughts based on his actions. I’ve learned this summer that he opens up, when and if he’s ready, and only in short statements. In all these differences between us, he stretches me to grow, and I think that’s a good thing. I’m learning. I’m learning it’s best to just not speak!! Lol
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 20:37:50 GMT
faithopelove i see your process as extremely honest and fruitful and actually, i would think it entirely possible for you to just grow more secure and find a secure partner that you can be your natural self with, and have your needs met joyfully and easily! you can find compatibility that flows and feels like home to you. i totally believe that!
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 9, 2018 21:22:05 GMT
faithopelove i see your process as extremely honest and fruitful and actually, i would think it entirely possible for you to just grow more secure and find a secure partner that you can be your natural self with, and have your needs met joyfully and easily! you can find compatibility that flows and feels like home to you. i totally believe that! Thanks, Juniper!! That’s my prayer 🙂
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 9, 2018 22:29:49 GMT
I find that my interactions with B work better when I hold no expectations but just try to enjoy the moment and treat the anxiety as something to be addressed in my journal after he leaves. I do find this is getting easier now that I am more stable....but....my AP mindset will tend to be the first reaction to anything and overanalyzing and wanting to know things will always be something I will struggle with internally. What I keep reminding myself is that...my internal state is driving my interpretation of his external/internal state and my ability to read his mind is quite broken...so I do my best to remind myself that it will be ok, even if I am not perfect, even if he doesn't act/react or respond the way I want him to, even if he doesn't provide the reassurance I sometimes feel I desperately need (internally based)....it will be ok. I know you have come so far on your self awareness and that is an awesome thing to be so very proud of....just keeping moving forward...even if it feels like hell at times and even if it feels like a step back....just know that nothing is wasted in your journey....HUGS.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 22:45:15 GMT
i'm going to be frank here, and offer advice in answer to your question. please keep in mind my intention is to just help you understand so that you can see more clearly why things aren't working in spite of your good intentions. i can't read his mind but i can offer a bare analysis based on what you've shared. there's no spite in the following: Get him out of the fishbowl in terms of his mood. do not analyze and probe it. do your best to change your habit of being concerned about his internal state, don't try to help. don't ask. let him share if he wants to but leave that to his discretion and timing and willingness. step way back and turn your focus to your own internal state at all times, leaving him to analyze and work with his own in complete privacy. Get out of his head once and for all. i say this because i see it as quite possible that he feels very engulfed by you. perhaps deeply and consistently criticized, poked, and prodded to be other than he is, he may feel criticized and infantilized by a woman who at the same time wants to "help, support, heal" him. he may feel that just when he is relaxed you bring up a suggestion for improvement. he may feel exasperated by not being able to just be, without sensing your dissatisfaction, worry, and discontent. if he does feel so, (and who knows; i don't. i would in his position. but i'm not him) then your absence would be a relief, and unless you alter your approach he will not let you continue to influence him that way with your unhappiness. also, in terms of the desire for more together time. please read the thread i posted in the DA support forum where we are discussing in our safe space about the difficulty of that for us. This is why your request could have seemed overwhelming and the last straw, piled on any other protest behavior or critical words you may have shared with him. if an AP who had protested strongly or with regularity with me in the past asked me to plan more together time ( a capacity i simply lack, and don't care to try to develop a to please anyone at this point in my life) i would perhaps just want to be done also, whether anyone else can understand or support me or not. i'd just have to draw a line somewhere with all the differing needs and capacities between AP/DA. this request would shine a bright light on the fundamentally OPPOSITE drives ; its the very difference between AP and DA in a nutshell. and the price of being unable to meet this need based on my internal wiring and capacity, = unhappy AP = protest behavior = NO. NO . that's where i let go and just need to be alone and stop trying to fit someone's agenda that simply does. not. jive. with. mine. this post may or may not be well supported by AP here, but remember. i am not stuck in that trap, and this is simply a DA perspective of that dynamic and why i don't and won't go there again. trying to be helpful. but it's the hard truth of how DA respond to AP needs for relationship. Yes, I cannot second this enough to get the other person out of the fishbowl. My ex was constantly trying to analyze my mood, worried constantly about me over nothing, made up stories in his head about what I was doing, and thinking. It was very burdensome to be the focus and the cause of his emotional state. Plus the stories ended up with him making assumptions about me that were so wrong. It seemed to me he was always coming out of left field. I actually didn't even realize this was all happening until the end of the relationship and from reading on this forum about this thought process. I didn't even realize that I was retreating more and more over the years.
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 9, 2018 23:10:33 GMT
i'm going to be frank here, and offer advice in answer to your question. please keep in mind my intention is to just help you understand so that you can see more clearly why things aren't working in spite of your good intentions. i can't read his mind but i can offer a bare analysis based on what you've shared. there's no spite in the following: Get him out of the fishbowl in terms of his mood. do not analyze and probe it. do your best to change your habit of being concerned about his internal state, don't try to help. don't ask. let him share if he wants to but leave that to his discretion and timing and willingness. step way back and turn your focus to your own internal state at all times, leaving him to analyze and work with his own in complete privacy. Get out of his head once and for all. i say this because i see it as quite possible that he feels very engulfed by you. perhaps deeply and consistently criticized, poked, and prodded to be other than he is, he may feel criticized and infantilized by a woman who at the same time wants to "help, support, heal" him. he may feel that just when he is relaxed you bring up a suggestion for improvement. he may feel exasperated by not being able to just be, without sensing your dissatisfaction, worry, and discontent. if he does feel so, (and who knows; i don't. i would in his position. but i'm not him) then your absence would be a relief, and unless you alter your approach he will not let you continue to influence him that way with your unhappiness. also, in terms of the desire for more together time. please read the thread i posted in the DA support forum where we are discussing in our safe space about the difficulty of that for us. This is why your request could have seemed overwhelming and the last straw, piled on any other protest behavior or critical words you may have shared with him. if an AP who had protested strongly or with regularity with me in the past asked me to plan more together time ( a capacity i simply lack, and don't care to try to develop a to please anyone at this point in my life) i would perhaps just want to be done also, whether anyone else can understand or support me or not. i'd just have to draw a line somewhere with all the differing needs and capacities between AP/DA. this request would shine a bright light on the fundamentally OPPOSITE drives ; its the very difference between AP and DA in a nutshell. and the price of being unable to meet this need based on my internal wiring and capacity, = unhappy AP = protest behavior = NO. NO . that's where i let go and just need to be alone and stop trying to fit someone's agenda that simply does. not. jive. with. mine. this post may or may not be well supported by AP here, but remember. i am not stuck in that trap, and this is simply a DA perspective of that dynamic and why i don't and won't go there again. trying to be helpful. but it's the hard truth of how DA respond to AP needs for relationship. Yes, I cannot second this enough to get the other person out of the fishbowl. My ex was constantly trying to analyze my mood, worried constantly about me over nothing, made up stories in his head about what I was doing, and thinking. It was very burdensome to be the focus and the cause of his emotional state. Plus the stories ended up with him making assumptions about me that were so wrong. It seemed to me he was always coming out of left field. I actually didn't even realize this was all happening until the end of the relationship and from reading on this forum about this thought process. I didn't even realize that I was retreating more and more over the years. I’ll keep that in mid. AP anxiety can cause fantasies and stories in our minds about our partners- usually focused on rejection and abandonment...our fears. AP tend to focus on the negative- negative self-talk is prevalent and needs reworking. I’d say negative self-talk to myself- that critical inner voice would overflow to others around me...just like the self-love and kindness I’m currently fostering overflows to others. What a difference I’ve seen in how I view myself and others. I’m more patient and kind...softer, accepting. I guess that old saying “what is in the well comes up in the bucket,” proves true.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 1:28:03 GMT
i'm going to be frank here, and offer advice in answer to your question. please keep in mind my intention is to just help you understand so that you can see more clearly why things aren't working in spite of your good intentions. i can't read his mind but i can offer a bare analysis based on what you've shared. there's no spite in the following: Get him out of the fishbowl in terms of his mood. do not analyze and probe it. do your best to change your habit of being concerned about his internal state, don't try to help. don't ask. let him share if he wants to but leave that to his discretion and timing and willingness. step way back and turn your focus to your own internal state at all times, leaving him to analyze and work with his own in complete privacy. Get out of his head once and for all. i say this because i see it as quite possible that he feels very engulfed by you. perhaps deeply and consistently criticized, poked, and prodded to be other than he is, he may feel criticized and infantilized by a woman who at the same time wants to "help, support, heal" him. he may feel that just when he is relaxed you bring up a suggestion for improvement. he may feel exasperated by not being able to just be, without sensing your dissatisfaction, worry, and discontent. if he does feel so, (and who knows; i don't. i would in his position. but i'm not him) then your absence would be a relief, and unless you alter your approach he will not let you continue to influence him that way with your unhappiness. also, in terms of the desire for more together time. please read the thread i posted in the DA support forum where we are discussing in our safe space about the difficulty of that for us. This is why your request could have seemed overwhelming and the last straw, piled on any other protest behavior or critical words you may have shared with him. if an AP who had protested strongly or with regularity with me in the past asked me to plan more together time ( a capacity i simply lack, and don't care to try to develop a to please anyone at this point in my life) i would perhaps just want to be done also, whether anyone else can understand or support me or not. i'd just have to draw a line somewhere with all the differing needs and capacities between AP/DA. this request would shine a bright light on the fundamentally OPPOSITE drives ; its the very difference between AP and DA in a nutshell. and the price of being unable to meet this need based on my internal wiring and capacity, = unhappy AP = protest behavior = NO. NO . that's where i let go and just need to be alone and stop trying to fit someone's agenda that simply does. not. jive. with. mine. this post may or may not be well supported by AP here, but remember. i am not stuck in that trap, and this is simply a DA perspective of that dynamic and why i don't and won't go there again. trying to be helpful. but it's the hard truth of how DA respond to AP needs for relationship. Yes, I cannot second this enough to get the other person out of the fishbowl. My ex was constantly trying to analyze my mood, worried constantly about me over nothing, made up stories in his head about what I was doing, and thinking. It was very burdensome to be the focus and the cause of his emotional state. Plus the stories ended up with him making assumptions about me that were so wrong. It seemed to me he was always coming out of left field. I actually didn't even realize this was all happening until the end of the relationship and from reading on this forum about this thought process. I didn't even realize that I was retreating more and more over the years. yes. this is extremely intrusive behavior. it's so toxic. i've endured the same and it made me feel just disgusted and done. that's why i wrote protest behavior (which is negative and controlling and causes me to be in a horrible mood) + asking about my mood, ever = ewwwwwww people can doubt how much of an impact that has, that's ok. i have never experienced that again in my life. i would not put up with the mind reading and mood scoping ever again.. it's just awful to be the target of it.
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